Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Oct 12, 2011 Full story: CNN 32,004

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20404 Feb 18, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
If you have not noticed many of my Mormon quotes are found on these sites.
Like D&C BOM teachings of J.S. teachings of B.Y.
But if you want something of real value here are a few.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/
http://mormonquotes.com/
http://www.utlm.org/
http://irr.org/
http://www.ccel.org/
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian...
Truth matters these sites have a lot of it.
Thank you for the information.
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20405 Feb 18, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope. Check out the Bible, look for a pattern in the gospel.
In the days between Moses and Christ, the gospel went out to only the house of Israel with few exceptions. Because of this, the administrators of the gospel during Christ's time had difficulty envisioning the necessity of proclaiming the gospel to all the world. They did not go to the gentiles at first. They mostly administered to the house of Israel.
Finally, the Lord gave Peter the revelation that the gospel should go to the Gentiles. This principle is explained in Acts 17:26-27. God "hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; They they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him."
-This means that there is a time appointed for successive nations and races to be offered the gospel.
Again, see http://speeches.byu.edu/...
First you need to Read the OT again Many converts to Judaism existed another thread perhaps.

Second Peter's dream was God showing him his racism his bigotry and not to interfere with the Gospel going to the Gentiles not that its time had come to go to the Gentiles.

and Acts 17 26 clearly states God placed men in specific times so all could seek him and find him in their individual times.

All mankind can find salvation in God in what ever time they live in. They only need to seek him and God place men in specific times so all could seek. How you get your interpretation is beyond reason.

Jesus is the Gospel and even David found his Savior as recorded in the OT.

open your eyes

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20406 Feb 18, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
Ok what stuff would you like me to cite.
Do you believe the LDS teaching you have a Goddess Mother?
I have question.
Woman sealed in temple marriages are they exalted?
Would it be a fringe issue for a woman to want to know what her powers and roles will be in exaltation?
I have a daughter this one really matters.
I await your response.
For starters, I would like to know for every question you have about our beliefs where that belief is found in either the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great price, lds.org , or any books, magazines, pamphlets or literature published by the Church. These are what I consider qualifying references. If it doesn't come from the church, then I don't think it is fair to say that the church said or believes it. I think that is fair, don't you?

If it does not exist in those sources, I think it is fair to say you are taking about speculation. As far as your question regarding a mother in heaven, I can only think of one qualifying resource for this, and that would be the lds hymnal. Even, then, the lyrics only state that logic seems to indicate that we probably have a mother in heaven.

I believe, as I said earlier, that our families here are patterned after the same organization that exists in heaven. Take that as your answer.

To answer your question about women being exalted:
- I think there is more required for both men and women than simply being sealed. Christ says that we must endure to the end.

What men or women precisely do when they are exalted is beyond me. The purpose of this life is to prepare to meet God. I think God withheld the particulars of an exalted life from us so that we can focus more on what we need to do now. After death, I do believe that we will continue to worship God and we will continue to learn and we will desire to become more like Him, because we love Him so much.
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20407 Feb 18, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Response to your quoted text above. It sounds like you are saying that God doesn't have a body, and God doesn't have a father.
Lets talk about what the Bible DOES say about Jesus Christ and God the Father.
Christ said "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likelwise." (John 5:19)
cut for space
These are excellent points you bring up here.
You are welcome to your LDS view on them.
But here is the kicker.
For over 2000 years all Christians have believed that Jesus did as he saw the father do with his spiritual eyes. Even the LDS teach Jesus did not have bodily form in heaven he got his body when he came to earth.
Thus even by LDS teaching Jesus never had seen God the father with eyes of flesh before his incarnation and even then not until he ascended.
So even by your own teachings the ONLY way Jesus could do what the Father was doing was by spiritual means. Thus your conclusion that God the Father was flesh is illogical and erroneous
anyway I took a rabbit trail there.
Christians have always believe for 2000 years Jesus is speaking Spiritually here that he could only do as the Father was doing as he even though fully God and all powerful choose not act in his Godly nature but to put that off as Paul teaches in The Supremacy of Christ
The fact that Christians have always believed that as did Paul see below and now you don't agree means you are not christian. Christianity was and is defined by 2000 years of history and Biblical evidence that is completely contradictory to your LDS faith. Your faith your beliefs are not that of Christians in 70 AD 1000 AD or 2000 AD to say you can believe two different things and call both beliefs the same by the same Name is absurd.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Col 2:10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20408 Feb 18, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
For starters, I would like to know for every question you have about our beliefs where that belief is found in either the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great price, lds.org , or any books, magazines, pamphlets or literature published by the Church. These are what I consider qualifying references. If it doesn't come from the church, then I don't think it is fair to say that the church said or believes it. I think that is fair, don't you?
If it does not exist in those sources, I think it is fair to say you are taking about speculation. As far as your question regarding a mother in heaven, I can only think of one qualifying resource for this, and that would be the lds hymnal. Even, then, the lyrics only state that logic seems to indicate that we probably have a mother in heaven.
I believe, as I said earlier, that our families here are patterned after the same organization that exists in heaven. Take that as your answer.
To answer your question about women being exalted:
- I think there is more required for both men and women than simply being sealed. Christ says that we must endure to the end.
What men or women precisely do when they are exalted is beyond me. The purpose of this life is to prepare to meet God. I think God withheld the particulars of an exalted life from us so that we can focus more on what we need to do now. After death, I do believe that we will continue to worship God and we will continue to learn and we will desire to become more like Him, because we love Him so much.
someone sure greased the LDS missionary there you sure are a slippery one.

so to all would be converts to LDS this is what you get form the LDS when you ask to the point direct questions.

Merry go round answers.

So I will ask what is the purpose of sealing a man and a woman in a temple marriage?

You say your faith is real ok so I want to know for what purpose is this done temple marriages.

Why is it that marriage outside a temple for 2000 years was good enough for God but not now??

Why were there no such marriage ceremonies within the Jewish Temple if we are to believe LDS claims their temple is a restoration of the 1st century Christian church.

Greek Christians from Corinth did not make trips to the Temple in 55 AD to get married had they the Jews would have crucified them for being Christian?

And then the question must be asked what did the Christians do in 80 AD when the temple was not even standing anymore as Jesus prophesied???

Direct questions merit direct answers.

BECAUSE Truth Matters
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20409 Feb 18, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
For starters, I would like to know for every question you have about our beliefs where that belief is found in either the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great price, lds.org , or any books, magazines, pamphlets or literature published by the Church. These are what I consider qualifying references. If it doesn't come from the church, then I don't think it is fair to say that the church said or believes it. I think that is fair, don't you?
If it does not exist in those sources, I think it is fair to say you are taking about speculation.
There is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).

After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).

God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).

We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).

The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).

There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).

History of the Church,

Are these fringe LDS books quotes?
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20410 Feb 18, 2013
cont... from above

"In the resurrection, they stand side by side and hold dominion together. Every man who overcomes all things and is thereby entitled to inherit all things, receives power to bring up his wife to join him in the possession and enjoyment thereof" (Mormon Doctrine Plain and Simple, 1888, p. 51).
In 1857, Mormon Apostle Erastus Snow, declared:

"Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord?'What!- my husband to be my lord?' I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant" (Journal of Discourses 5:291).
Sambrotherofnephi as you can see as I have shown you from LDS sources there is more than just a hymnal reference to an exalted mother God.

And the fact you have not shown yourself approved in the study of your own faith and yet proclaim it as truth means you have been deceived into believing you are a Christian when in point of fact you are not your are Mormon.

Because I love my Daughter I will defend Christianity against the false beliefs and deceptions of the LDS faith as it treats Negros and Woman as inferior to men which is unture.

Because the Bible says.Gal 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20411 Feb 19, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You couldn't answer any better than what Egypt said? lolol...wow oh wow have you sunk to a new low for where you rely on unintelligent replies. lol...why am I not surprised!...lol. Fricking just to much...lol....
Bloviating isn't going to save Mormonism either. His response was spot on. Your response doesn't disprove it, in the least.
Father overtime

Salt Lake City, UT

#20412 Feb 19, 2013
Trying to prove faith again? When will you dorks realize you can't prove anything. Proclaiming Truth without actual proof is a lie. I have faith of truth but don't proclaim that I know it's the truth. Bunch of liars on this board. Shameful.
Very Simple

Morristown, TN

#20414 Feb 19, 2013
Gal. 1:6-9

Joseph Smith should have quoted those verses to the false angel Moroni. The word of god is indeed a 2 edged sword...if you know it well enough to use it properly.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20415 Feb 19, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>

Christians have always believe for 2000 years Jesus is speaking Spiritually here that he could only do as the Father was doing as he even though fully God and all powerful choose not act in his Godly nature but to put that off as Paul teaches in The Supremacy of Christ
The fact that Christians have always believed that as did Paul see below and now you don't agree means you are not christian. Christianity was and is defined by 2000 years of history and Biblical evidence that is completely contradictory to your LDS faith. Your faith your beliefs are not that of Christians in 70 AD 1000 AD or 2000 AD to say you can believe two different things and call both beliefs the same by the same Name is absurd.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Col 2:10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority
We do not know how Christ could have seen it, perhaps in vision, but that does not prove that God is not a physical being.

You need to explain where you are going with these posted scriptures. I subscribe entirely to what I see in these scriptures. To me, what you have posted is simply defining the role of Jesus Christ and God the Father.

Look at it from another perspective. God the Father is invisible God because at no time were the Jews permitted to see Him, He has done everything through Christ who is Jehovah, "Who is the image of the invisible God." In other words, Jehovah who is Jesus Christ acted on behalf of God the father with his dealings with the Jews.

Forgive me if this is not the point you are trying to make. It was not quite clear to me. However if this was the point you were trying to make, God being invisible: This scripture can not mean that God is literally invisible.

Why can't God be invisible?
-Ezekiel had a vision of God in a form in human likeness.(Ez 1:26)
-Stephen saw "the Son of man standing on the right hand of God" (Acts 7:56)
-John saw God sitting on the throne in heaven (Rev 4:2)
-Moses was the "back parts" of God.(Exodus 33:22)
-Moses spoke to God face to face (Ex 33:11)
-Jacob saw God face to face (Gen 32:24-32)

If all these people have seen God, then in what sense is God invisible? And if they have seen him, what did they see, if not a physical being which can be distinguished?

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20416 Feb 19, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
someone sure greased the LDS missionary there you sure are a slippery one.
so to all would be converts to LDS this is what you get form the LDS when you ask to the point direct questions.
Merry go round answers.
So I will ask what is the purpose of sealing a man and a woman in a temple marriage?
You say your faith is real ok so I want to know for what purpose is this done temple marriages.
Why is it that marriage outside a temple for 2000 years was good enough for God but not now??
Why were there no such marriage ceremonies within the Jewish Temple if we are to believe LDS claims their temple is a restoration of the 1st century Christian church.
Greek Christians from Corinth did not make trips to the Temple in 55 AD to get married had they the Jews would have crucified them for being Christian?
And then the question must be asked what did the Christians do in 80 AD when the temple was not even standing anymore as Jesus prophesied???
Direct questions merit direct answers.
BECAUSE Truth Matters
Purpose of sealing a man and a woman? To link the entire human family, so that we can maintain the same precious relationships in heaven that we have here. A word for your daughter: The doctrine of eternal marriage is one of the most empowering doctrines for women. A woman is not a man's play thing is this life to suffer child bearing and be cast off at the point of death never to be reunited with her husband and dear children. Our relationships in this life take on so much more significance when you understand that the bond you have and are strengthening in this life will continue in the next.

Simply because you do not explicitly read about temple marriages does not mean they did not happen. Many books of scripture where left out of the Bible we have today. As far as 2000 years passing without temple sealing occurring and now it taking place: It is a fulfillment of Malachi 4:5-6. "Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

In other words: Now, at this time, the sealing power has been restored and the hearts of the children are being turned to the fathers and we are sealing them to us to fulfill the great purpose of this earth. The goal is a united, sealed, and complete eternal family. Since many of the dead did not have this opportunity, we, the children, need to do it. Hence the turning of the hearts to the fathers.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20417 Feb 19, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
There is a mother god (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443).
After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354).
God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516).
We were first begotten as spirit children in heaven and then born naturally on earth (Journal of Discourse, vol. 4, p. 218).
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129).
The Devil was born as a spirit after Jesus "in the morning of pre-existence," (Mormon Doctrine, p. 192).
There is no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith as a prophet of God (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p. 188).
History of the Church,
Are these fringe LDS books quotes?
Some of the material in Mormon Doctrine is fringe material, and therefor is immaterial as previously explained. Also, as explained previously, Mormon Doctrine can not be cited as a qualified source of "Mormon Doctrine." It was not published by the church.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20418 Feb 19, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
cont... from above
In 1857, Mormon Apostle Erastus Snow, declared:
"Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord?'What!- my husband to be my lord?' I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant" (Journal of Discourses 5:291).
Sambrotherofnephi as you can see as I have shown you from LDS sources there is more than just a hymnal reference to an exalted mother God.
And the fact you have not shown yourself approved in the study of your own faith and yet proclaim it as truth means you have been deceived into believing you are a Christian when in point of fact you are not your are Mormon.
Because I love my Daughter I will defend Christianity against the false beliefs and deceptions of the LDS faith as it treats Negros and Woman as inferior to men which is unture.
Because the Bible says.Gal 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus
I think it would be fair to apply that above quote to both men and women in the church. I don't believe I will be able to reach my fullest potential with out God the Father, Jesus Christ, the Holy Ghost and my dear wife helping me along the way.

Second, The Journal of Discourses is NOT an official publication of the Church. It has some doctrinal instruction but also some speculative teachings. See http://www.lds.org/topics/journal-of-discours...

A much more solid doctrinal source would be one of the 4 standard works.

Regarding the doctrine of marriage, God has said:
-Demonstrating the importance of a woman-
"thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart..." (D&C 42:22)

-Demonstrating equal partnership and responsibility for salvation-
"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband..." (D&C 74:1)

See also D&C 132 for equal roles in a Celestial marriage.

That is what I would designate as speculative, fringe, and immaterial.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20419 Feb 19, 2013
*Strike that last line in my last post. I meant to describe the portion your quoted from the Journal of Discourses as speculative, fringe, and immaterial.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20420 Feb 19, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Some of the material in Mormon Doctrine is fringe material, and therefor is immaterial as previously explained. Also, as explained previously, Mormon Doctrine can not be cited as a qualified source of "Mormon Doctrine." It was not published by the church.
It was published by Deseret Books, which is owned by the LDS church. That makes it published by the LDS church.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20421 Feb 19, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
These are excellent points you bring up here.
You are welcome to your LDS view on them.
But here is the kicker.
For over 2000 years all Christians have believed that Jesus did as he saw the father do with his spiritual eyes. Even the LDS teach Jesus did not have bodily form in heaven he got his body when he came to earth.
Thus even by LDS teaching Jesus never had seen God the father with eyes of flesh before his incarnation and even then not until he ascended.
So even by your own teachings the ONLY way Jesus could do what the Father was doing was by spiritual means. Thus your conclusion that God the Father was flesh is illogical and erroneous
anyway I took a rabbit trail there.
I'm game for this :)
Please explain the following if Jesus only had 'spiritual means' to see/understand with 'prior' to his being born a couple thousand years later okay?

Gen. 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said,“My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.

So we have Abraham sitting by the door of his tent in the middle of what was probably a hot day and Abraham was between doing chores.
Than we have the LORD Jesus Christ(not God the Father)suddenly appearing with two angels.
Now this is the important part to consider and chew on before you respond. If Jesus didn't posses a boby that he could be discerned by by others with the human eye some 2000 years later, how is it Abraham was able to discern the human form of the Lord and the human form of his two angels? What is more that many miss about this moment, is how did Abraham RECOGNIZE the Lord if Abraham had never seen the Lord before? If the Lord possessed no physical form, how was Abraham recognizing the Lord and two angels as he would recognize any other human being?
More than that, in these 'forms' the Lord and his two angels ate and drank liquid and solids as Abraham ate. How does a spirit without form or shape as you claim of God prior to his birth, how does he take on a human form of some type solid substance so that not only is he seen, but he eats and drinks and he is recognized meaning Abraham has seen the Lord before.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20422 Feb 19, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Bloviating isn't going to save Mormonism either. His response was spot on. Your response doesn't disprove it, in the least.
So admit it. I asked a question you're scared to answer. Not a tough question to ask and is plausible. You're answering it should be simple as your a 'professional' anti-Mormon that can reveal all the erroneous teachings/doctrines of the Mormon church to listeners. You have declared as much.
So pretending Smith had tried to kill an unarmed man and denied his new found faith and Jesus, you should find it easy to say how you would use that information as ammo to prove Smith and his religion false.
But your scared to give comment? I'll accept you're scared to give comment. Guess there's a first for you huh :)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20423 Feb 19, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
So admit it. I asked a question you're scared to answer. Not a tough question to ask and is plausible. You're answering it should be simple as your a 'professional' anti-Mormon that can reveal all the erroneous teachings/doctrines of the Mormon church to listeners. You have declared as much.
So pretending Smith had tried to kill an unarmed man and denied his new found faith and Jesus, you should find it easy to say how you would use that information as ammo to prove Smith and his religion false.
But your scared to give comment? I'll accept you're scared to give comment. Guess there's a first for you huh :)
I've told you time and time again, I don't play "shoulda, coulda, woulda." Smith is no Jesus Christ or even a Peter.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20424 Feb 19, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm game for this :)
Please explain the following if Jesus only had 'spiritual means' to see/understand with 'prior' to his being born a couple thousand years later okay?
Gen. 18:1 Now the LORD appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 When he lifted up his eyes and looked, behold, three men were standing opposite him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them and bowed himself to the earth, 3 and said,“My Lord, if now I have found favor in Your sight, please do not pass Your servant by.
So we have Abraham sitting by the door of his tent in the middle of what was probably a hot day and Abraham was between doing chores.
Than we have the LORD Jesus Christ(not God the Father)suddenly appearing with two angels.
Now this is the important part to consider and chew on before you respond. If Jesus didn't posses a boby that he could be discerned by by others with the human eye some 2000 years later, how is it Abraham was able to discern the human form of the Lord and the human form of his two angels? What is more that many miss about this moment, is how did Abraham RECOGNIZE the Lord if Abraham had never seen the Lord before? If the Lord possessed no physical form, how was Abraham recognizing the Lord and two angels as he would recognize any other human being?
More than that, in these 'forms' the Lord and his two angels ate and drank liquid and solids as Abraham ate. How does a spirit without form or shape as you claim of God prior to his birth, how does he take on a human form of some type solid substance so that not only is he seen, but he eats and drinks and he is recognized meaning Abraham has seen the Lord before.
I'll take a stab at this. Abraham had met him before, read Chapter 12, and 17. That is how he know who it was. As for the rest of your question, is anything impossible for God? Jesus has always been God.

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