Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

There are 32003 comments on the CNN story from Oct 12, 2011, titled Who says Mormons aren't Christians?. In it, CNN reports that:

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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Since: Sep 12

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#19348 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Never heard of any "fruit of the cattle". But with any simple reading of that chapter, you would know the fruit talked about is good works, not children.
I hadn't heard of any "fruit of the cattle" either, until I read Deuteronomy 28:4.:-)

"Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep."

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19349 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, it doesn't matter what the LDS church is teaching. Paul is clearly saying that at death, the marriage is over, otherwise, if a person remarried, they would be committing adultery.
I think he is talking about the way things used to be under the law. I can understand your fruit being works justification since the rest of the chapter is about the law, sin, redemption, and death. Later, in verse 5 of Romans 7 he talks about bringing "fruit unto death." I am not sure what that means, but it could be works. But if you want to assert that fruit is a reference to works, I'm fine with the idea of bringing "forth [works] unto God." (verse 4) Especially since that aligns with the scripture found in Matthew 16:27 quoted earlier.

I have shared what I believe to be some evidence for what I hold to be true, and if you choose not to see it the same way, then we can move on to more exciting points of doctrine.

Even IF eternal marriage isn't spelled out in our current bible, you have to admit, a lot of scripture is missing.

There are other arguments I could copy and paste from FAIR, but that wouldn't be much fun to discuss.

If you want a look see: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormon_ordinances/Ma...

Since: Sep 12

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#19350 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
My favorite Tab Christmas song is "The Choral of the Bells."
That one is awesome too! I love how it captures the anticipation of the coming of Christ or Christmas.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19351 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
(Ephesians 2:8-9)- "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast."
(Rom. 3:20, 28)- "because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin...For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law."
(Galatians 2:16)- "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
(Romans 11:6)But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Response to scriptures:
We totally believe what those scriptures are saying.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19352 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
President Packer said, "Unless there is a mediator, unless we have a friend, the full weight of justice, untempered and unsympathetic, must, positively must fall on us. The full penalty for every transgression, however minor or however deep, will be exacted from us to the uttermost farthing.
"There is a Mediator, a Redeemer who stands both willing and able to appease the demands of justice and extend mercy to those who are penitent.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700195344/...
That isn't salvation by grace, that is salvation by works. It isn't Biblical.
What I read from this is that Jesus Christ saves us from the demands of justice. There was nothing the debtor could do to save himself, he was toast, but because he had a Mediator, he was able to be saved from the demands of justice. It is by mercy and grace that we are saved from the demands of justice. I don't see how that conflicts with other things the bibles says about the relationship between faith and works.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19353 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
That may explain the Isiah quotes, but how does that explain the New Testament quotes? Also, how did the know the name of Christ before he was born? How did some of the people in the Book of Mormon get called "Christian" before there was a Christ?
<quoted text>
Well, there shouldn't have been any doubts about Adolph Hither, yet the LDS church did the temple work for him also. They also have done the temple work for Jesus Christ. Why?
I had never heard of that happening before,(Mormons baptizing Christ) so I looked it up. I am assuming that you must be referring to this article: https://sites.google.com/site/miguelinmechele...

See article text, it indicates that the temple work was not done for "Jesus Christ" but another similar name.

"It appears the submissions for “Jesus Christian,” and “Jesus Cristian” were attempts to manipulate the identity of Jesus Christ through the LDS temple system. The misspelled “Cristian,” instead of “Christian,” could have been a typo, or a deliberate error. It may have been intentionally entered as “Cristian” to get around a computer program that automatically blocks submissions that contain the names “Jesus Christ.” That would explain why the entry for “Jesus Christian” shows LDS ordinances as “Not available.”"

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19354 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
That may explain the Isiah quotes, but how does that explain the New Testament quotes?
The Book of Mormon is the spiritual record of the people in the Ancient Americas, the Bible is the spiritual record of the people in the Ancient Middle East.

If there is one God and he has the same message of salvation for everyone, don't you think he would want all of his children to have the same gospel, the same divine message?

God loves all of His Children, the Book of Mormon is evidence of that. God did not neglect his Children in the Americas at the meridian of time when the most important moment in the history of the earth occurred. Christ's miraculous sacrifice extends to everyone, and surely it was important to God to get the message out to everyone. Christ said in John 10:16 that he had other sheep not of this fold and they would hear his voice. He is talking about the people in the Americas.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19355 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
How did some of the people in the Book of Mormon get called "Christian" before there was a Christ?
Christ existed before he was born, and he appeared to people in the Old Testament.

See John chapter 1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." verse 14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...."

Christ is the word of God, he existed before he was born.

I know I am preaching to the choir here because you are a well educated Christian...but:
The whole purpose of the Law of Moses was to point people to Christ. From creation's dawn to the meridian of time and throughout all eternity the plan was for Jesus Christ to save us from death and hell. All of God's children rely on the Atonement of Christ, both before and after the meridian of time. Christ's atonement is infinite. The people before Christ's coming looked for the signs of his coming and awaited the salvation he would bring with great anticipation. Undoubtedly these people had faith in Christ, and under that assumption, I think they could qualify as Christians.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19356 Dec 14, 2012
Protester wrote:
<quoted text>
What nonsense. The Bible tells us that the dead know nothing. They sleep until Judgment Day.
Your practice makes a mockery of baptism. If it was legitimate, then they would have done it during Jesus' life.
If the dead know nothing, why did the Savior of the world teach the dead in prison? Our spirits still exist after we die, for Christ told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that same day.

References for Christ teaching people in spirit prison:

See 1 Peter 3:18-19
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison."

Or Isa 42:7 or Isa 24:22

Or why did Christ say that he would speak to the dead if the dead know nothing?

John 5:25-28 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice."

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19357 Dec 14, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
The Book of Mormon is the spiritual record of the people in the Ancient Americas, the Bible is the spiritual record of the people in the Ancient Middle East.
If there is one God and he has the same message of salvation for everyone, don't you think he would want all of his children to have the same gospel, the same divine message?
God loves all of His Children, the Book of Mormon is evidence of that. God did not neglect his Children in the Americas at the meridian of time when the most important moment in the history of the earth occurred. Christ's miraculous sacrifice extends to everyone, and surely it was important to God to get the message out to everyone. Christ said in John 10:16 that he had other sheep not of this fold and they would hear his voice. He is talking about the people in the Americas.
PS: Isaiah also says Christ and his role in the salvation of mankind was known from the foundations of the earth.

Isa 40:21 "Have ye not know? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?" (Isaiah speaking Messianically)

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19358 Dec 14, 2012
Protester wrote:
<quoted text>
Your practice makes a mockery of baptism.
Paul cites the practice of baptisms for the dead as evidence for the resurrection.

1 Cor 15:29 "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

It seems implied in this statement that baptisms for the dead were common practice in Christ's time, at least common practice enough for Paul to use it for evidence of the resurrection.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#19359 Dec 14, 2012
Protester wrote:
<quoted text>
Your practice makes a mockery of baptism.
How do you believe we should be baptized?

I believe we should be baptized "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 28:19)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19360 Dec 14, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
That one is awesome too! I love how it captures the anticipation of the coming of Christ or Christmas.
If you enjoy great Christmas songs by Choirs, listen to this version of "The Hallelujah Chorus" by the Brooklyn Tabernacle Choir:
&pl aynext=1&list=PL6025ABB136 93D683&feature=results_mai n

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19361 Dec 14, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
PS: Isaiah also says Christ and his role in the salvation of mankind was known from the foundations of the earth.
Isa 40:21 "Have ye not know? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?" (Isaiah speaking Messianically)
But it does not say "Jesus Christ" by name, as the Book of Mormon" does.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19363 Dec 14, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Paul cites the practice of baptisms for the dead as evidence for the resurrection.
1 Cor 15:29 "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
It seems implied in this statement that baptisms for the dead were common practice in Christ's time, at least common practice enough for Paul to use it for evidence of the resurrection.
Yes, he does. He often used the practices of other religions to make a point. That however, does not equal a practice done by the early church. Notice how he separates the Christians from the group doing the baptism for the dead. He referred to them as "they". But in the very next verse, he refers to the Christians by including himself: "How do we".

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19364 Dec 14, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
The Book of Mormon is the spiritual record of the people in the Ancient Americas, the Bible is the spiritual record of the people in the Ancient Middle East.
If there is one God and he has the same message of salvation for everyone, don't you think he would want all of his children to have the same gospel, the same divine message?
God loves all of His Children, the Book of Mormon is evidence of that. God did not neglect his Children in the Americas at the meridian of time when the most important moment in the history of the earth occurred. Christ's miraculous sacrifice extends to everyone, and surely it was important to God to get the message out to everyone. Christ said in John 10:16 that he had other sheep not of this fold and they would hear his voice. He is talking about the people in the Americas.
So why didn't Jesus go to all the islands, if your theory is true? Wher are all the books about the visits Jesus made to the people cut off from Israel not found? And if he did come to America, what good did it do? His church disappeared within 400 yrs according to the Book of Mormon. Yet it has never left Europe and Asia from the time he arrived in Israel.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19365 Dec 14, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
What I read from this is that Jesus Christ saves us from the demands of justice. There was nothing the debtor could do to save himself, he was toast, but because he had a Mediator, he was able to be saved from the demands of justice. It is by mercy and grace that we are saved from the demands of justice. I don't see how that conflicts with other things the bibles says about the relationship between faith and works.
No, not according to Packer. All Jesus did was take over the same debt, expecting payment. That isn't grace.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#19366 Dec 14, 2012
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Response to scriptures:
We totally believe what those scriptures are saying.
No you don't, or you wouldn't be doing temple work for the dead. Temple work for the dead is a statement that the Mormon church doesn't believe the blood of Christ covers all sin and is sufficient for our salvation. You are saying his work wasn't enough.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#19368 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, it doesn't matter what the LDS church is teaching. Paul is clearly saying that at death, the marriage is over, otherwise, if a person remarried, they would be committing adultery.
<quoted text>
Which has nothing to do with marriage, eternal or not. You do not see him teaching eternal marriage. In fact, you can read him teaching against marriage altogether later in order to serve the Lord better. Now if eternal marriage was so important to our lives after the resurrection, that would be a very strange thing to teach.
<quoted text>
We are all going to be literally married to Jesus for eternally? Because the is the "him" that is talked about in that verse. That isn't even LDS teaching. He is only using a metaphor for Christ's love for us. In another verse it talks about Christ being our bridegroom. If that were literal, even the men would be married to Jesus. I hope you know you were pushing there to try an get a point.
<quoted text>
We are dead to the law because we are saved by the grace. You are really stretching it to claim it has anything to do with eternal marriage.
I gave you information on this topic before to consider. No matter what Paul's personal opinion is, Jews 2000 years ago did teach eternal marriage and being a priest, he knew of those teachings.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid...

The eternal Jewish future depends on the old Jewish past, which gives ample evidence that Jews who relate to G&#8209;d survive. The words of the betrothal blessing are important in this context: He forbade relations for the betrothed, and permitted it for the married. These are declarations of G&#8209;d who created man and woman and ordained marriage. Given true love and a man and woman who follow religious and ethical precepts, life holds the possibility of being as close to paradise as is possible in this world. But if they violate G&#8209;d's commands, they must repeat the experience of Adam and Eve in paradise lost. Judaism teaches that every bride and groom must go back to Adam and Eve, and reenact that physical and spiritual drama of community as "one flesh."

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#19369 Dec 14, 2012
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Sorry, it doesn't matter what the LDS church is teaching. Paul is clearly saying that at death, the marriage is over, otherwise, if a person remarried, they would be committing adultery.
I gave you this information before, maybe you should re-read it again?
http://calba-savua.blogspot.com/2011/04/did-s...
--
This colloquy between Jesus and his Sadducean detractors does not question or throw doubt, in proper cases, on the eternal verity that the family unit continues in the resurrection. Jesus had previously taught the eternal nature of the marriage union. "What therefore God [not man!] hath joined together, let not man put asunder." That is, when a marriage is performed by God's authority—not man's!—it is eternal. See Matt. 19:1-12. "Whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever." (Eccles. 3:14.)

Indeed, almost the whole Jewish nation believed that marriage was eternal, and that parents would beget children in the resurrection. Those few who did not believe that marriage continued after death and among such were the Sadducees, who could not so believe because they denied the resurrection itself—were nonetheless fully aware that such was the prevailing religious view of the people generally. Without doubt Jesus, the apostles, the seventies, and the disciples generally had discussed this doctrine.

The Sadducean effort here is based on the assumption that Jesus and the Jews generally believe in marriage in heaven. They are using this commonly accepted concept to ridicule and belittle the fact of the resurrection itself. They are saying:'How absurd to believe in a resurrection (and therefore in the fact that there is marriage in heaven) when everybody knows that a woman who has had seven husbands could not have them all at once in the life to come.'

A most instructive passage showing that the Jews believed there should be marriage in heaven is found in Dummelow. "There was some division of opinion among the rabbis as to whether resurrection would be to a natural or to a supernatural (spiritual) life," he says. "A few took the spiritual view, e.g. Rabbi Raf is reported to have often said,'In the world to come they shall neither eat, nor drink, nor beget children, nor trade. There is neither envy nor strife, but the just shall sit with crowns on their heads, and shall enjoy the splendor of the Divine Majesty.' But the majority inclined to a materialistic view of the resurrection. The pre-Christian book of Enoch says that the righteous after the resurrection shall live so long that they shall beget thousands. The received doctrine is laid down by Rabbi Saadia, who says,'As the son of the widow of Sarepton, and the son of the Shunamite, ate and drank, and doubtless married wives, so shall it be in the resurrection'; and by Maimonides, who says,'Men after the resurrection will use meat and drink, and will beget children, because since the Wise Architect makes nothing in vain, it follows of necessity that the members of the body are not useless, but fulfill their functions.' The point raised by the Sadducees was often debated by the Jewish doctors, who decided that 'a woman who married two husbands in this world is restored to the first in the next.'" (Dummelow, p. 698.)

How much nearer the truth were these Jews, on this point, than are the modern professors of religion who suppose that family love, felicity, and unity cease simply because the spirit steps out of the body in what men call death!
Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary

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