Homophobic hypocrisy on Topix

ononothimagin

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#4039 Oct 8, 2013
How about musicians that play Classical Music, octo?

Are they "Pop Stars" too?

They record music for sale commercially!!

ononothimagin

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#4040 Oct 8, 2013
John Lennon was a Pop Star.

Elvis Presley was a Pop Star.

Michael Jackson was a Pop Star.

Gram Parsons?

You didn't even know who he was!!
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4041 Oct 8, 2013
ononothimagin wrote:
<quoted text>
You mean after you said, "Dylan was a pop star! Don't be so stupid?"
My point was that "Pop Stars" play "Pop Music," of which Dylan most certainly was NOT! You can't say every musician is a "Pop Star" because "Pop" is short for "POPULAR!"
Bob Dylan and Gram Parsons were pioneers in their genre. They cared more about the music than being on the top of the charts!
You keep harping away on how fantastic Elvis was cuz he was sooo popular! Tom Petty may have loved Elvis but his music doesn't reflect it. Tom Petty sounds like Dylan and the Byrds, NOT Elvis!
Before I heard it, I assumed "Indescribably Blue" was just another one of Elvis' "POP" Songs.... Safe, predictable and drenched in "romantic love." Another of Elvis' listener friendly songs, designed to appeal to his fans and to help the Colonel pay off his gambling debts!!
Bob Dylan started out as strictly a folk protest singer in the early sixties. That movement had an audience as people like The Kingston Trio, Pete Seger, Peter, Paul And Mary were helping folk music gain a pop audience. What Bob Dylan really did differently was that he incorporated rock into his sound beginning in 1965. He mixed it all up as a concept, especially with the classic, "Like A Rolling Stone" Dylan's famous plugged in performance at Newport was the turning point of modernized rock on stage. Dylan did two numbers, "Maggie's Farm" (which sounds like Elvis's "Viva Las Vegas" played at breakneck speed) and an incredible "Like A Rolling Stone" The folk audience at the time were stunned and there was some scattered booing heard in the arena. However, I was totally blown away by the historical nature of it. A very important milestone that changed how music was heard and performed forever. And The Beatles were still playing with tiny amps at their last concert in Candlestick Park in San Francisco in 1966! Yes, Dylan turned into a pop star because of his amazing work on his albums of the period. It was a happening and The Byrds and The Beatles followed suit with deeper lyrical messages to their songs. It would have never happened without Dylan. But where did Dylan get his ideas from? I'd have to say Elvis's "Sun Sessions" The blend of country, blues, gospel and rockabilly to create a new sound.
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4042 Oct 8, 2013
Tom Petty does not have to sound like Elvis to idolize him. Have you ever heard "Yesterday's Numbers" from The Flamin' Groovies 1971 under rated classic, "Teenage Head" ??? Sounds like Tom Petty before he even made his first record. By the way, the whole album still sounds as fresh as the day it was recorded. And The Groovies never made it big. Listen to these on You Tube:

"High Flyin' Baby"
"City Lights"
"Have You Seen My Baby" ?
"Yesterday's Numbers"
"Teenage Head"
"32-20"
"Doctor Boogie"
"Whiskey Woman"

The Flamin' Groovies idolized Elvis but did not often go there because Elvis is difficult to capture.

They did one crazy Elvis impersonation called "Evil Hearted Ada" which is loosely based on "Mystery Train"

Check out "Love Have Mercy" from The Groovies also.
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4043 Oct 8, 2013
ononothimagin wrote:
John Lennon was a Pop Star.
Elvis Presley was a Pop Star.
Michael Jackson was a Pop Star.
Gram Parsons?
You didn't even know who he was!!
I know who Gram Parsons was but he died in 1973.

The Flamin' Groovies did what you call pop/rock but never charted anything. It wasn't because they weren't good.

They are still together in some form today.

Badfinger was great also but were short lived.

They could be considered pop, right?

Pop music could mean anything you want it to mean, Kracker.

ononothimagin

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#4044 Oct 8, 2013
Octopus wrote:
<quoted text>
I know who Gram Parsons was but he died in 1973.
The Flamin' Groovies did what you call pop/rock but never charted anything. It wasn't because they weren't good.
They are still together in some form today.
Badfinger was great also but were short lived.
They could be considered pop, right?
Pop music could mean anything you want it to mean, Kracker.
There are distinct differences. Go to a large retail store like Walmart and find the "Popular" section of their CDs in their music department.

Now see if you can find "Gram Parsons," "The Flying Burrito Brothers" or even "Badfinger". If you're lucky, you might find their Greatest Hits.

Now look up Britney Spears. Big difference, right? That's cuz B.S. is regarded a "Pop Musician," in the sense that she's "popular" with young people.

The Beatles were a pop group. They still are. That's cuz they made a point to write songs that would be a hit with young people. Badfinger did it too, just not as successfully as the Beatles. Look for Bob Dylan and you'll find him in the "Pop" section too but not because he wrote "Pop Songs." He's just famous.

That covers the 2 requirements it takes to become a "Pop Musician." Either that person is part of the "mainstream," (aka: widely accepted) had a few hits or they're famous.

In that respect, OK.... you could call Bob Dylan a "Pop Musician" but not for the same reasons The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Britney Spears or Michael Jackson are.

So what does "POP" mean? It's either short for "POPULAR," as in "famous," but more often it's a style music that belongs in the genre known as "Pop Music..." catchy, widely accepted music with lots of rhythm and harmony and an emphasis on romantic love. It's what the kids like.

It doesn't mean "anything you want it to," or it would apply to Classical musicians too. I can practically guarantee you that you won't find "Mihailo Živanovi&#263;" in the "Popular" section at Walmart.

ononothimagin

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#4045 Oct 8, 2013
Octopus wrote:
<quoted text>
But where did Dylan get his ideas from?
Dylan's musical idol was "Woody Guthrie." (Another fascinating figure.) He wrote protest songs like Woody did.

Look at Bob Dylan in the beginning and then look at a picture of Woody Guthrie. The resemblance is uncanny.

ononothimagin

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#4046 Oct 9, 2013
Take Chuck Berry, one of the key innovators in the formation of Rock-n-Roll. Chuck was almost 30 when he had his first hit. It would be more appropriate for him to write songs about being an adult but what did Chuck choose to write about instead…. TEENAGERS! He wrote about waiting for the school bell to ring and the love a teenager has for his first car. He deliberately wrote songs kids could relate to. Why? Cuz he wanted to become a “POP STAR!”

Was that smart of him? Oh yeah. It made him famous!

Being a “Pop Star” is both an admirable endeavor and a sell out. Do adults care about the girl in “Sweet Little Sixteen?” Not really. There are already too damn many songs around that celebrate what it means to be a teenager. If there were never another one written, it would be just fine with me. The thing is, adults don’t buy records like teenagers do. If a musician can tap into that market, those kids will find a way to get the money to buy his records.

So how admirable was it that Elvis tapped into that market? Just as admirable as it was for The Beatles, Little Richard, Justin Timberlake….etc. etc.

The difference is that guys like The Beatles progressed. After they established themselves as “Pop Stars,” the branched out and took risks.

That's far different than what Elvis did. Yeah, he took on meatier subjects like “In The Ghetto” but you can bet the Colonel sat down with other members of the “Elvis Inc.” and discussed whether it would be widely accepted by his fans beforehand.

There was no blueprint for guys like Bob Dylan and Gram Parsons. No musician that wanted to become famous would write folk songs about being a hobo or expect Rock fans in the 60s to listen to Country Music.
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4047 Oct 9, 2013
Bob Dylan's Top 10 Albums In The US:(1965-1979)

1. "Bringing It All Back Home"

2. "Highway 61 Revisited"

3. "Blonde On Blonde"

4. "Greatest Hits"

5. "John Wesley Harding"

6. Self Portrait"

7. "New Morning"

8. "Planet Waves"

9. "Before The Flood"

10. "Blood On The Tracks"

11. "The Basment Tapes"

12. "Desire"

13. "Slow Train Coming"

Take in account too that Bob Dylan had six top 10 songs in the sixties on his own, not counting the many artists that covered his work over the years that had hits with them. He may not be considered a pop artist by today's standard, but Dylan had a massive impact on how pop music was heard and played. Guns N Roses even had one of their biggest hits with "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" And not to mention Dylan was in a supergroup with Tom Petty, George Harrison and Roy Orbison in the late eighties.
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4048 Oct 9, 2013
ononothimagin wrote:
<quoted text>
Dylan's musical idol was "Woody Guthrie." (Another fascinating figure.) He wrote protest songs like Woody did.
Look at Bob Dylan in the beginning and then look at a picture of Woody Guthrie. The resemblance is uncanny.
Woody Guthrie is one of Dylan's idols...

Elvis is another.

But what is really interesting is that Elvis was very aware of Dylan because Dylan was one of the few musicians Elvis ever talked about on stage and in the studio. Elvis introduced many celebrities from the stage but he rarely mentioned people by name. He did with Bob Dylan though. He never did a Dylan song live but covered "Blowin' In The Wind" "Tomorrow Is A Long Time" "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright" and a few lines of "I Shall Be Released"
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4049 Oct 9, 2013
ononothimagin wrote:
<quoted text>
There are distinct differences. Go to a large retail store like Walmart and find the "Popular" section of their CDs in their music department.
Now see if you can find "Gram Parsons," "The Flying Burrito Brothers" or even "Badfinger". If you're lucky, you might find their Greatest Hits.
Now look up Britney Spears. Big difference, right? That's cuz B.S. is regarded a "Pop Musician," in the sense that she's "popular" with young people.
The Beatles were a pop group. They still are. That's cuz they made a point to write songs that would be a hit with young people. Badfinger did it too, just not as successfully as the Beatles. Look for Bob Dylan and you'll find him in the "Pop" section too but not because he wrote "Pop Songs." He's just famous.
That covers the 2 requirements it takes to become a "Pop Musician." Either that person is part of the "mainstream," (aka: widely accepted) had a few hits or they're famous.
In that respect, OK.... you could call Bob Dylan a "Pop Musician" but not for the same reasons The Beatles, Elvis Presley, Britney Spears or Michael Jackson are.
So what does "POP" mean? It's either short for "POPULAR," as in "famous," but more often it's a style music that belongs in the genre known as "Pop Music..." catchy, widely accepted music with lots of rhythm and harmony and an emphasis on romantic love. It's what the kids like.
It doesn't mean "anything you want it to," or it would apply to Classical musicians too. I can practically guarantee you that you won't find "Mihailo Živanovi&#263;" in the "Popular" section at Walmart.
Walmart has a shitty selection most of the time but their CD's are low priced. If you are lucky, sometimes you can find something worth grabbing. I do not want to pay $20 for Tom Petty's "Mojo" but keep checking at Walmart in hopes I might find a copy there. No such luck. But Walmart does have some stuff. I found Bob Dylan's "The Best Of The Original Mono Recordings" for $5. I've haven't seen it again.

I've seen Classical compilations though. I bought a couple CD's because they happen to be played on accoustic guitar. Very pretty stuff. Plus I love "Greensleves"
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4050 Oct 9, 2013
Basically, the people who make so called "pop" music today are grossly untalented and are ignored by me. Once the Grunge era came and went, I stopped buying brand new releases. My nieces like that crap but they do not buy CD's because they listen to select songs then move on to the next big thing. Growing up in the eighties, I've heard most of the classic rock on the radio and most of it is overplayed to death. It is old, boring and the modern alternate rock sucks. I like old stuff in bootleg form that I may not have heard before as a collector but I very rarely buy music anymore. All the great independent record stores have closed shop and FYE is really lame. They chase me out of the store when they blast Hip Hop at full volume, I leave...
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4051 Oct 9, 2013
Chuck Berry is awesome and made a string of early rock n roll classics but by 1968, was reduced to opening up for shitty hippie bands at the Fillmore West. However, Chuck jammed with Steve Miller and did the blues as heard on the excellent, "Chuck Berry Live At Fillmore Auditorium" Judging from the quiet audience, the hippies were obviously too wasted to understand how great it was. Pathetic.

I found the CD in the bargain bin for three dollars!
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4052 Oct 9, 2013
The Beatles progressed to a certain point and then went back to basics for "The White Album" They also released the out of print, "Hey Jude" album that I've haven't seen since the last days of vinyl. "Abbey Road" was another great album that is a classic but to say Elvis did not progress from 1969 onto the seventies is pure ignorance. The entire Memphis Sessions are now sold together as a Legacy Edition double CD. Then Elvis changed again with "That's The Way It Is" He never went back to what he has done before. All his seventies studio albums can not be considered pop by any means. I am so glad that Elvis did not go Disco like the Rolling Stones or play the sappy ham like Paul McCartney.
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4053 Oct 9, 2013
ononothimagin wrote:
<quoted text>
Dylan's musical idol was "Woody Guthrie." (Another fascinating figure.) He wrote protest songs like Woody did.
Look at Bob Dylan in the beginning and then look at a picture of Woody Guthrie. The resemblance is uncanny.
We did an study of Arlo Guthrie's dated "Alice's Restaurant" in High School in the eighties because we had a strange liberal thinking teacher. But because it was the eighties, her point totally missed me. It was interesting though. I enoyed all the girls in my class in twelve grade. It was like being in a Harum.

ononothimagin

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#4054 Oct 10, 2013
Octopus wrote:
The Beatles progressed to a certain point and then went back to basics for "The White Album"
As usual, you underestimate the Beatles.

"Revolution #9" was going "back to the basics?"

How about "Honey Pie?" (Not the instrumental, the song where Paul is singing about the girl across the sea?) It starts out with Paul singing, "Now she's hit the big time," sounding like a scratched record. Then he launches into a music hall / ragtime type melody.

How was that going back to the basics??

The versatility on that record was astounding....

Country? Listen to “Rocky Raccoon or Don’t Pass Me By.”
Hard Rock? Listen to “Helter Skelter.”
Caribbean influences? Listen to “ Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da.”
Soft Rock? Listen to "Julia."
Folk or Cowboy songs? Listen to “Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill.”
Surf music? Listen to “Back in the USSR.”
Drugs? Listen to “Happiness Is A Warm Gun” and "Everybody's Got Something to Hide."
Blues? Listen to “Yer Blues."
Political and Avant Garde? Listen to “Revolution 9.”
Waltz? Listen to “Piggies.”

That doesn't even mention the Indian influenced music George experimented with on "Within You, Without You, Love You To or The Inner Light," the Spanish influenced “And I Love Her," the gospel influenced "Let It Be" or John's psychedelic songs like “Tomorrow Never Knows, I Am A Walrus or A Day In The Life!!"

No other band would've successfully tackled as many stylistic changes and been as popular as the Beatles were.

Elvis wouldn't even try!!

ononothimagin

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#4055 Oct 10, 2013
Octopus wrote:
<quoted text>
Walmart has a shitty selection most of the time but their CD's are low priced. If you are lucky, sometimes you can find something worth grabbing.
Walmart has a "shitty selection" cuz they aren't trying to make YOU happy!!

Such are the limitations of being a "Pop Star." It's all about what they can move. Do you think they'd shelf a copy of "The Flaming Groovies" for several years, hoping you'll wander in and buy it someday?

NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!

They'd rather stock up on stuff they know they make a buck and cent on, like "Britney Spears, Justin Timberlake and Justin Bieber!!"
Octopus

Albany, NY

#4056 Oct 10, 2013
ononothimagin wrote:
<quoted text>
As usual, you underestimate the Beatles.
"Revolution #9" was going "back to the basics?"
How about "Honey Pie?" (Not the instrumental, the song where Paul is singing about the girl across the sea?) It starts out with Paul singing, "Now she's hit the big time," sounding like a scratched record. Then he launches into a music hall / ragtime type melody.
How was that going back to the basics??
The versatility on that record was astounding....
Country? Listen to “Rocky Raccoon or Don’t Pass Me By.”
Hard Rock? Listen to “Helter Skelter.”
Caribbean influences? Listen to “ Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da.”
Soft Rock? Listen to "Julia."
Folk or Cowboy songs? Listen to “Continuing Story of Bungalow Bill.”
Surf music? Listen to “Back in the USSR.”
Drugs? Listen to “Happiness Is A Warm Gun” and "Everybody's Got Something to Hide."
Blues? Listen to “Yer Blues."
Political and Avant Garde? Listen to “Revolution 9.”
Waltz? Listen to “Piggies.”
That doesn't even mention the Indian influenced music George experimented with on "Within You, Without You, Love You To or The Inner Light," the Spanish influenced “And I Love Her," the gospel influenced "Let It Be" or John's psychedelic songs like “Tomorrow Never Knows, I Am A Walrus or A Day In The Life!!"
No other band would've successfully tackled as many stylistic changes and been as popular as the Beatles were.
Elvis wouldn't even try!!
"The White Album" was a return to recording live in the studio without sound effects, splicing, overdubs and backward tape loops, which George Martin was doing to create the masters for "Revolver" on. Except for the dreadful, "Revolution #9" nonsense, "The White Album" was somewhat recorded in a structure of a stripped down to the core, basic rock album. It is not an insult because I have the alternate studio outtakes from the sessions. I also have numerous studio outtakes from Elvis's 1969 Memphis Sessions as well. Elvis was gritty, passionate and his musicians were first rate. Elvis got better sound, better production, better songs. He was very professional and in a lot of cases, his studio outtakes are superior to the masters. Elvis recorded everything take by take so I've heard the songs develop and heard Elvis working with his band. Just because Beatle fans hype The Beatles up as superior, doesn't make it true. Elvis was brilliant in the recording studio, especially at American studios in Memphis, 1969. He totally reinvented himself with all the tracks. "Suspicious Minds" "In The Ghetto" and "Kentucky Rain" were the singles. The whole session was incredible, better than anything The Beatles have ever done.

ononothimagin

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#4057 Oct 10, 2013
Octopus wrote:
<quoted text>
Just because Beatle fans hype The Beatles up as superior, doesn't make it true. Elvis was brilliant in the recording studio, especially at American studios in Memphis, 1969. He totally reinvented himself with all the tracks. "Suspicious Minds" "In The Ghetto" and "Kentucky Rain" were the singles. The whole session was incredible, better than anything The Beatles have ever done.
But it IS true. The Beatles not only took risks with their music but they stayed at #1 on the charts the whole time they were together. Just cuz you don't agree, doesn't make it "untrue".

"Suspicious Minds" reinvented Elvis?? Now who's over-exaggerating??

Suspicious Minds was a hit cuz it was upbeat and then broke away to a part where Elvis could croon a little, then it was right back to the same repetitious beat that went on and on and the lyrics were trite...

"I can't walk out cuz I love ya too much baby!"
"Why can't you see what yer doin' to me?"

Only Elvis fans thinks that song is a masterpiece. I still think it would've been better if they changed the words to "We're caught like a trout!"

ononothimagin

Since: Aug 12

Location hidden

#4058 Oct 10, 2013
Octopus wrote:
<quoted text>
Elvis got better songs.
Elvis got songs Col. Parker could swindle the song rights to and would be widely accepted by his fans!!

By the way, NONE of the 3 "masterpiece" songs you mentioned reached #1!

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