Should Billy Graham's legacy be rescued?

Should Billy Graham's legacy be rescued?

There are 1638 comments on the Q-Notes story from Feb 13, 2013, titled Should Billy Graham's legacy be rescued?. In it, Q-Notes reports that:

President Barack Obama with Rev. Billy Graham at his house in Montreat, N.C., April 25, 2010.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Q-Notes.

Lincoln

United States

#533 Mar 8, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes it is-- look in the mirror-- you worship the evil bible, or a more descriptive name, the "buybull" as in you have to buy into the bullsh7t to believe it.
Since I have not stated my religious beliefs .... you seem a bit off today?

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#534 Mar 8, 2013
Lincoln wrote:
<quoted text>
Since I have not stated my religious beliefs .... you seem a bit off today?
You DID state it-- not in so many words, of course-- but you CLEARLY stated your position by your attitude, by the sum-total of your hate-speech to me and other unbelievers.

For starters: you >>never<< question the posts of another of you True Believers™. Ever.

In fact, you typically agree with the hate-speeches of your various colleges-in-hate here.

That right there proves beyond a doubt what YOUR ugly beliefs consist of.

There was no need for you to spell it out-- you already did.
Lincoln

United States

#535 Mar 8, 2013
Bob of Quantum-Faith wrote:
<quoted text>
You DID state it-- not in so many words, of course-- but you CLEARLY stated your position by your attitude, by the sum-total of your hate-speech to me and other unbelievers.
F
San Diego Jewish Academy sophomore Zander Cowan is working to organize his Second Annual Walk to End Genocide at Ocean Air Community Park in Carmel Valley on Sunday, April 7, from 9 a.m. to noon. The one-mile walk aims to raise awareness, support and hope for the survivors of genocide in Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo.
Almost six million people have lost their lives to the genocide and mass atrocities in Sudan and Congo. More than three million people have been displaced from their villages in Sudan and 200,000 people are surviving in refugee camps in Chad. An estimated 45,000 people die each month in Congo.
The one mile walk is sponsored by and will support Jewish World Watch (JWW) and is being planned by a philanthropic young team of SDJA sophomores: Zander, Naomi Suminski and Ilana Engel.
Zander and his classmates first learned about JWW in the eighth grade, after a presentation on the genocide in Congo and Sudan in his Jewish studies class. Zander said the whole class was inspired to help and sold blue rubber bracelets stamped with the words “Decide to End Genocide”; they were able to raise $1,700.
barry

San José, Costa Rica

#536 Mar 12, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
I figured you would try to worm out of responsibility for your church's crimes. Oh yes it's always other people and not your church eh?
Your statement clearly shows you did not bother to read the links on the page and just assume it's all about Baptist hating.
<quoted text>
barry wrote:
<quoted text>"really, i suppose you have a link for that."

judging by your reply you don't have a link for your absurd claim.
you don't have a link show any atrocities down through the ages that were committed by independent or ana-baptist groups.
nor do we use the same Bible.
barry

San José, Costa Rica

#537 Mar 12, 2013
emperorjohn wrote:
<quoted text>
Explain to me and Bob how slavery in Biblical times was different than 19th century slave, save the element of race.
"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)

almost all slaves in our great country were captured and sold.

"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished." (Exodus 21:20)
"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth." (Exodus 21:26-27)
"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:12)

slave owners got away with murder in our great land. certainly no one was set free because of a lost tooth.

"Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves.(Exodus 23:12)

i don't think that there was much sabath rest for the slaves.

"You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.(Deuteronomy 23:15-16)

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#538 Mar 12, 2013
You didn't look at the link I see. There are independent baptists in there.

Going way back we see the crimes.

http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/pi...

And more recently...

http://www.emailwire.com/release/112478-Funda...

And another independent baptist preacher.

http://www.lewistownsentinel.com/page/content...

And more

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Bible_...

This is just getting embarrassing now...
http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/7...
barry wrote:
<quoted text>barry wrote:
<quoted text>"really, i suppose you have a link for that."
judging by your reply you don't have a link for your absurd claim.
you don't have a link show any atrocities down through the ages that were committed by independent or ana-baptist groups.
nor do we use the same Bible.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#539 Mar 12, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>"He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16)
almost all slaves in our great country were captured and sold.
"If a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand, he shall be punished." (Exodus 21:20)
"If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave, and destroys it, he shall let him go free on account of his eye. "And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let him go free on account of his tooth." (Exodus 21:26-27)
"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:12)
slave owners got away with murder in our great land. certainly no one was set free because of a lost tooth.
"Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves.(Exodus 23:12)
i don't think that there was much sabath rest for the slaves.
"You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall dwell with thee, even among you, in that place which he shall choose in one of thy gates, where it liketh him best: thou shalt not oppress him.(Deuteronomy 23:15-16)
Are there people that willingly became slaves?
barry

San José, Costa Rica

#540 Mar 12, 2013
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps you should look up "Martin Luther". Before Martin Luther, all christians were either catholic or eastern orthodox. Protestantism did not exist before 1517, when Luther wrote his 95 theses. Even after the splitting off, most of protestant belief is the same as catholic belief.
You are no doubt a great follower of Martin Luther. You seem to share his disdain for reason when it is in opposition to faith:
Reason is the enemy of faith.- Martin Luther
Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but - more frequently than not - struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God - Martin Luther
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.- Martin Luther
then what were the Montanists (150 A.D.), the Novatians (240 A.D.), Donatists (305 A.D.), Albigenses (1022 A.D.), Waldensians (1170 A.D.) just to name a few?
barry

San José, Costa Rica

#541 Mar 12, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>Are there people that willingly became slaves?
i'm not sure i understand your question, are you referring to Biblical times or to our great country. either way the answer would be yes. but very few in our country when compared to the thousands captured, shipped and sold here in America.
Amused

Bridgewater, MA

#542 Mar 12, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>then what were the Montanists (150 A.D.), the Novatians (240 A.D.), Donatists (305 A.D.), Albigenses (1022 A.D.), Waldensians (1170 A.D.) just to name a few?
Small schisms which generally faded into insignificance within a few generations.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#543 Mar 12, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>i'm not sure i understand your question, are you referring to Biblical times or to our great country. either way the answer would be yes. but very few in our country when compared to the thousands captured, shipped and sold here in America.
Really? at any time people chose to be slaves rather than be free humans?
barry

San José, Costa Rica

#544 Mar 12, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
You didn't look at the link I see. There are independent baptists in there.
Going way back we see the crimes.
http://www.gameo.org/encyclopedia/contents/pi...
And more recently...
http://www.emailwire.com/release/112478-Funda...
And another independent baptist preacher.
http://www.lewistownsentinel.com/page/content...
And more
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Bible_...
This is just getting embarrassing now...
http://www.abpnews.com/ministry/people/item/7...
<quoted text>
you must be bob's twin or you are bob's other personality.

game.org
Pieter van Leiden (16th century)
Pieter van Leiden, a Dutch Anabaptist preacher, was arrested and imprisoned at The Hague, Holland, in December 1535. Further particulars are lacking.

no crime listed. was it perhaps that he believed differently than those in power?

wiki...
Patriot Bible University (PBU), formerly known as Patriot University, is an unaccredited Independent Baptist correspondence school located in Del Norte, Colorado...

again no crime listed or even implied.

in the jack hyles case you sadly are right about one individual who commited a sin against another individual. it was not the policy nor the practice of the church. all the details are not there but iy was the church that turned in jack schaap.
"First Baptist Church in Hammond, Ind., posted a news release on the church website announcing dismissal of Pastor Jack Schaap “due to a sin that has caused him to forfeit his right to be our pastor.”(apbnews)
thanks for the site it will be useful to me in the future.

the other two sites are legit. however you have not shown that it is a trend or a policy of the independent baptist movement in fact it was publicly condemned by independent baptist across the country. this are individuals who have committed an atrocity against individuals for their own personal gratification. so don't link us with the atrocities of the catholics and protestants which were a policy and practice of their church against anyone or any group who disagreed with them.
barry

San José, Costa Rica

#545 Mar 12, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>Really? at any time people chose to be slaves rather than be free humans?
"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2) hebrew slaves sold themselves into slavery to settle debts. it was also a practice in europe and in our early history. the problem is that because of dishonesty and the ignoring of the Biblical principle of seven years, some remained enslaved a long time. it was called indentured servitude or slavery.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#546 Mar 12, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2) hebrew slaves sold themselves into slavery to settle debts. it was also a practice in europe and in our early history. the problem is that because of dishonesty and the ignoring of the Biblical principle of seven years, some remained enslaved a long time. it was called indentured servitude or slavery.
And, according to that same god, if those slaves had kids while you owned them, you own their kids...

what a great guy that god!

again, no people would have rather been free and not be a slave. They were forced into it by hook or by crook.
barry

San José, Costa Rica

#547 Mar 12, 2013
Amused wrote:
<quoted text>
Small schisms which generally faded into insignificance within a few generations.
really! you can still visit waldensan churches in the mountains of italy today.
wki says this about the montanists;

"Montanism was an early Christian movement of the late 2nd century, later referred to by the name of its founder, Montanus, but originally known by its adherents as the New Prophecy. It originated in Phrygia, a province of Asia Minor, and flourished throughout the region, leading to the movement being referred to elsewhere as "Cataphrygian" (meaning it was "from Phrygia") or simply as "Phrygian". It spread rapidly to other regions in the Roman Empire at a time before Christianity was generally tolerated or legal. It persisted in some isolated places into the 6th century."
some will say that it evidenses it self int the apostalic/charismatic movement of today.

"the movement held similar views about the basic tenets of Christian doctrine to those of the wider Christian Church. It was a prophetic movement that called for a reliance on the spontaneity of the Holy Spirit and a more conservative personal ethic. Parallels have been drawn between Montanism and modern day movements such as Pentecostalism, the charismatic movement, and the New Apostolic Reformation.[1]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism

are you by any chance Catholic or were you Catholic?
barry

San José, Costa Rica

#548 Mar 12, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>And, according to that same god, if those slaves had kids while you owned them, you own their kids...
what a great guy that god!
again, no people would have rather been free and not be a slave. They were forced into it by hook or by crook.
your right people would rather be free. but back then debts had to be payed. wars were fought and slaves lived. so;
#1 you're wrong
#2 the point was that slaves were not to be captured and sold.
#3 slavery in America was not the slavery that was explained in the Bible.
do you have a disagreement with #2 or #3?
#4 i don't even know how this relates to the topic.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#549 Mar 12, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text> your right people would rather be free. but back then debts had to be payed. wars were fought and slaves lived. so;
#1 you're wrong
#2 the point was that slaves were not to be captured and sold.
#3 slavery in America was not the slavery that was explained in the Bible.
do you have a disagreement with #2 or #3?
#4 i don't even know how this relates to the topic.
no, you are wrong, capturing them by economic means is still capturing them. Are you saying it would be OK by your god to enslave people today for going bankrupt?

yes, what does your comment about wars have to do with anything?

so how do you feel about your god approving of people owning other people because they were born into slavery? Seems like a real prick of a god to any rational human...
Amused

Bridgewater, MA

#550 Mar 12, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>really! you can still visit waldensan churches in the mountains of italy today.
wki says this about the montanists;
"Montanism was an early Christian movement of the late 2nd century, later referred to by the name of its founder, Montanus, but originally known by its adherents as the New Prophecy. It originated in Phrygia, a province of Asia Minor, and flourished throughout the region, leading to the movement being referred to elsewhere as "Cataphrygian" (meaning it was "from Phrygia") or simply as "Phrygian". It spread rapidly to other regions in the Roman Empire at a time before Christianity was generally tolerated or legal. It persisted in some isolated places into the 6th century."
some will say that it evidenses it self int the apostalic/charismatic movement of today.
"the movement held similar views about the basic tenets of Christian doctrine to those of the wider Christian Church. It was a prophetic movement that called for a reliance on the spontaneity of the Holy Spirit and a more conservative personal ethic. Parallels have been drawn between Montanism and modern day movements such as Pentecostalism, the charismatic movement, and the New Apostolic Reformation.[1]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanism
are you by any chance Catholic or were you Catholic?
Any particular reason why all the references to Montanism are in the past tense? Apart from the fact that they faded out of existence, that is? Thanks for proving my point. There were dozens of schisms over the history of the catholic and eastern orthodox churches. Until Martin Luther, none of them lasted, or grew into any kind of major religious group. A few obscure Waldenasian churches in a remote part of Italy does not change that.

“Quantum Junctn: Use Both Lanes”

Since: Dec 06

Tulsa, Oklahoma USofA

#551 Mar 12, 2013
barry wrote:
<quoted text>barry wrote:
<quoted text>"really, i suppose you have a link for that."
judging by your reply you don't have a link for your absurd claim.
you don't have a link show any atrocities down through the ages that were committed by independent or ana-baptist groups.
nor do we use the same Bible.
Your group is not really independent, you silly person.

>>ALL<< christians got their start at roughly 300ACE, when Constantine fabricated the first "official" bible.

Prior to that? There were NO christians of any sort! Certainly not your Jewsus-- he was an Israelite, not a "christian".

So you can lie all you like and pretend as much as you want-- but you are equally guilty of ALL of the atrocity committed in the name of your evil bible, down through the ages.

Why?

Because you promote and worship the same, evil, book-of-hate: Constantine's bible.

Since: Mar 11

United States

#552 Mar 12, 2013
Buy a Hebrew slave.... Noah's son and children and grandchildren were to be lifelong slaves.

Note only Hebrew slaves had those rights and you can bet during those 7 years their owner got their money's worth be it raping them, working them long hours with little food, and you can only beat them hard enough that they can stand up after a few days rest. Non Hebrew slaves were fair game no rules need apply.
barry wrote:
<quoted text>"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment." (Exodus 21:2) hebrew slaves sold themselves into slavery to settle debts. it was also a practice in europe and in our early history. the problem is that because of dishonesty and the ignoring of the Biblical principle of seven years, some remained enslaved a long time. it was called indentured servitude or slavery.

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