If Health Law Is Overturned, What Wil...

If Health Law Is Overturned, What Will Liberals Do?

There are 4937 comments on the thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com story from Mar 28, 2012, titled If Health Law Is Overturned, What Will Liberals Do?. In it, thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com reports that:

If the Supreme Court strikes down all or part of President Obama 's health care law , it will have unraveled a legislative compromise that many liberals had viewed with suspicion from the beginning.

In one of the ironies of recent politics, Mr. Obama was a late convert to the merits of the individual mandate that now appears to be in danger of being declared unconstitutional.

But the president’s embrace of the mandate — and his willingness to abandon a so-called public option to get a health care deal — was a hard pill to swallow for many of his Democratic supporters.

The Affordable Care Act promises to provide health insurance to millions who lacked it. But it also stops far short of the idea that health care is a basic right for everyone living in the country. And it embraces the market-based system of private health care delivery that has long existed in America.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com.

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#2567 Jun 1, 2012
Churmudgeon wrote:
<quoted text> Those who where born in the usa between 1935and 1945 where an anomaly. Thay canm od age at a time when the USA was it. The USA was the producer for the world. If someone needed something thay came here to buy it. Those in that age group could work one job for their entire career. That is now gone. And there isnt a political or ballott box solution that can change that fact. I personally dont care who buys or owns the land. its still part of the USA and the world has to eat. They still gotta farm the land and pay taxes hire help etc. What Is the difference if its Con Agri or some chinese outfit? shoot france sold jefferson the louisana purchase. russa sold steward alaska. we took texas by force from mexico. In the big picture it dont really matter. I have the deed,s to several real propertys. However my wife says We dont really own any of it, She states if we own it why do we hafta pay rent(property tax) every year and someone else gets to decide how much the rent will be? If we get to not liking the chinese or whoever owning the land the goverment can just raise the rent to more than its worth. I know folks who have walked away fron property in Illinois because the taxes where more than the place was worth.
In otherwords you are accepting of just a merging of the USA or any other country for that matter in what might end up a world government with no borders. What that really means is certain cultural things will either disappear or be replaced with others like Christmas for instance. In Australia we lost an entire Island close to the Barrier Reef to the Chinese just because there were not enough cashed up Aussie's to afford it. So instead of being a tourist resort it might end up some closed place that only Chinese millionares visit. Everything has a price but like what Obama did with off shore drilling it's not always the wisest choice to always choose "show me the money"

Since: Jul 11

Location hidden

#2568 Jun 1, 2012
It's not about taxing the "wealthy" its about everyone paying their fair share wealthy or not. If all you focus on is where you believe the waste occurs and miss the elephant in the room then it will trample you to death. You don't have laws for those who have more wealth than those who don't. Tax is the same thing. However justice may work a lil better for those money than those who can't afford a lawyer. Tax is exactly the same, if you want the wealth to be evenly spread amongst the population the growth is far better controlled. There is only a small benefit to be had by a 1%'r buying a big a$$ mercedes than 500 families deciding they will eat out tonight. The later has more benefit to the economy as a whole. If you deprive those 500 families then they don't eat out the mecerdes guy buys the luxury model because he gets the tax breaks and who benefits, only him & the dealer. Not the country or anyone else. So every time you tell me this wealthy quote about them carrying the country is crap. The 500 families who went without is what got them the bigger car.
Churmudgeon

United States

#2569 Jun 2, 2012
OzRitz wrote:
<quoted text>
Agree with you on Teachers, not on Green as I said it's the West's only chance of dominationing a new world economy or play second fiddle to emerging economies.
Secondly regarding tax on income, if you don't pay the allocated tax your country will fail like Greece and all the others who refuse point blank to pay their fair share of tax. If you wan't to know how the real world works then take a look at Italy now with an Economist running the country along with his hand picked cabinet. He has put measures in place to kill the cash economy who avoid tax and even the cash registers are being directly linked to the tax office to make sure no selective filtering takes place on income vs out goings. If these measures are not followed then they will sink into the sea like the rest of them. That is what paying no tax or trying to minimise tax does for a country and adopting this tea party type logic in the face of all these facts is like still believing the Earth is flat. History should teach all of us to learn from others mistakes not repeat them.
http://totallyexpat.com/news/italy-austerity-...
Green energy is feel good subject but inpractice is inconvenient and impractical and usually cost more. most are like me it will have to be relatively easy and cheaper. Then It will be embraced. Myself I have a hot water heater in my outdoor wood furnace. and i have a home built solar water heater made from three discarded water heaters. But they arnt reliable 100% of the time .We still have an electric water heater also. Its not the lack of tax revenue that is the problem. The problem is spending beyond the income. The big thing world wide Is too few relatively lower paid producers and too many relatively higher paid parasites. We have more parasites than producers. All goverment spending Is a Tax. A tax to be paid by todays producers or the futures producers. The producers in reality are the only ones who actually pay taxes, Since the parasites income must come from the taxes & fees collected from the productive. Be it todays productive or the futures. The parasites tax they pay is in actuallity just recycled tax dollars robbed from the productive. You mention Italy Its not the austerity measures or the lack of tax revenue that caused the problem. Its the excessive spending beyond what the productive was paying. The parasites killed the host. The USA is headed down the same path. And just you wait the $3500 per person per year will not pay for the obama care.
Churmudgeon

United States

#2570 Jun 2, 2012
OzRitz wrote:
It's not about taxing the "wealthy" its about everyone paying their fair share wealthy or not. If all you focus on is where you believe the waste occurs and miss the elephant in the room then it will trample you to death. You don't have laws for those who have more wealth than those who don't. Tax is the same thing. However justice may work a lil better for those money than those who can't afford a lawyer. Tax is exactly the same, if you want the wealth to be evenly spread amongst the population the growth is far better controlled. There is only a small benefit to be had by a 1%'r buying a big a$$ mercedes than 500 families deciding they will eat out tonight. The later has more benefit to the economy as a whole. If you deprive those 500 families then they don't eat out the mecerdes guy buys the luxury model because he gets the tax breaks and who benefits, only him & the dealer. Not the country or anyone else. So every time you tell me this wealthy quote about them carrying the country is crap. The 500 families who went without is what got them the bigger car.
I dont want the wealth evenly spread amongst the population. And The fair share arguement dont wash also. The parasites actually pay no tax. The income they recieve is taken from the producers so any tax they pay in actuallity was robbed from a producer. The producers (todays or the futures) no matter how much or how little wealth they have are the ones carrying the country. You can only tax police or govern citizens to the extent that the citizens will allow. You may force someone to comply beyond that point for a time. but eventually they will find a way to escape a opressive situation. There have been companies that fled labor unions ,pollution laws, taxes and a host of other rules regulations and laws. The parasites will never pay their fair share because they actually never produce anything.
Not So Fast

Junction City, KS

#2571 Jun 2, 2012
OzRitz wrote:
There is only a small benefit to be had by a 1%'r buying a big a$$ mercedes than 500 families deciding they will eat out tonight. The later has more benefit to the economy as a whole. If you deprive those 500 families then they don't eat out the mecerdes guy buys the luxury model because he gets the tax breaks and who benefits, only him & the dealer. Not the country or anyone else. So every time you tell me this wealthy quote about them carrying the country is crap. The 500 families who went without is what got them the bigger car.
This is where your argument falls apart:

The dealer pays taxes and employs sales people, mechanics, secretaries and clerks. He also employs people toi maintain the lot and his buildings. He also pays to purchase inventory in the form of vehicles and parts which helps to keep thousands employed (everyone from paint manufacturers to turn wire harness builders).

Of course all those products must get to market so the countless shipping and trucking personnel are employed and in the case of "Mercedes" if the vehicle is manufactured overseas it must be brought here by a ship employing hands and dock workers handling the load.

From parts and paint manufacture to dock handling and shipping, many of these good people are Union and making excellent wages.

Then there are the mechanics employed for routine maintenance and those that manufacture fluids and filters and tires that stay employed.

From the purchase of the vehicle sales taxes are paid. All of the listed people pay taxes. Plus the state gets its recurring property taxes.

I submit that the single purchase of a "luxury" car is far more beneficial to our economy than 500 families going out to McDonalds.
Churmudgeon

United States

#2572 Jun 2, 2012
OzRitz wrote:
<quoted text>
In otherwords you are accepting of just a merging of the USA or any other country for that matter in what might end up a world government with no borders. What that really means is certain cultural things will either disappear or be replaced with others like Christmas for instance. In Australia we lost an entire Island close to the Barrier Reef to the Chinese just because there were not enough cashed up Aussie's to afford it. So instead of being a tourist resort it might end up some closed place that only Chinese millionares visit. Everything has a price but like what Obama did with off shore drilling it's not always the wisest choice to always choose "show me the money"
As a Hunkpapa Sioux medicine man once said. A people will be upon a land for a time. A stronger people will eventually come and take it away from them. That is just the way things are. Sitting Bull was right. China always was the sleeping giant. China Is waking up. passing laws to prevent them from owning or buying land wont change anything. they could find thousands of citizens to be strawmen and make the purchase. I say I own my mini storage and other buisnesses. When In fact they are each Owned by a LLC that Im in control of. Me and two others have a private road with hundreds of acres( some owned by us and some leased) surrounding it. Its a gated closed up place that only we can visit. Before we consolidated it into a hunting club everyone had access to it. And to be shure lots of people who didnt own land and always used it where angry. They even tried to sue us. But this is the USA and we have our counstitional rights. That is the test? Would you would fight for the counstitional right of someone doing something that you totally disagree with?
xxxrayted

Brook Park, OH

#2573 Jun 2, 2012
OzRitz wrote:
It's not about taxing the "wealthy" its about everyone paying their fair share wealthy or not. If all you focus on is where you believe the waste occurs and miss the elephant in the room then it will trample you to death. You don't have laws for those who have more wealth than those who don't. Tax is the same thing. However justice may work a lil better for those money than those who can't afford a lawyer. Tax is exactly the same, if you want the wealth to be evenly spread amongst the population the growth is far better controlled. There is only a small benefit to be had by a 1%'r buying a big a$$ mercedes than 500 families deciding they will eat out tonight. The later has more benefit to the economy as a whole. If you deprive those 500 families then they don't eat out the mecerdes guy buys the luxury model because he gets the tax breaks and who benefits, only him & the dealer. Not the country or anyone else. So every time you tell me this wealthy quote about them carrying the country is crap. The 500 families who went without is what got them the bigger car.
Your theory is a bit flawed. If a person who is wealthy has his money confiscated from him so that it can be spread throughout society, what is his motivation to become wealthy in the first place? Why be a doctor when you can have nearly the same amount of money as the garbage man?

I am a patient at the world famous Cleveland Clinic. When I go to get my annual checkup, I feel like a foreigner. This is because half of the doctors are not native born Americans. People come here from all over the world, go to school, and work and stay here. Why? Because we pay our doctors so well. They don't return to their own country because being a doctor in socialized medicine doesn't pay all that much.

We all go to work for one reason: to be rewarded. The more work you do, the higher the reward should be. If you lower or take away the rewards, then people have less inspiration to work.

But we are at the half-way point of what you suggest. So what is the outcome? The poor actually live better than the working in many instances. Some live in the suburbs which other working people can't afford, they eat better than many working people, have free medical care which many working people don't have, and have much larger families. So we should expand on this?

I would really like to know what "fair share" is. I asked this a thousand times, but it needs to be asked again: The top 5% of wager earners in this country pay 71% of all federal income tax. The Democrats suggest they should pay their "fair share' meaning more. Okay. If 71% is not a fair share, then what percentage of taxes should our top 5% of wage earners pay? 80%? 90%? All taxes????? What is fair for this 5% of our population?

“Impeach Obama!”

Since: Jul 08

Memphis, TN

#2574 Jun 2, 2012
As usual leftwing nutjobs prefer to ignore the glaring fact that Japanese companies also pay far less effective tax rates than the actual corporate income tax in Japan, just like American companies.

Warmongering Amerika has the highest corporate income tax in the world to pay for its endless wars. Show that banner high on your Statue of Liberty!

And, that is exactly why companies are fleeing high-income tax states like New York, for example.
AnnAgain

Oakland, CA

#2575 Jun 2, 2012
OzRitz wrote:
<quoted text>
We have a Carbon tax right now nation wide, highest in the world of $23 a tonne of CO2 and I believe it will prepare our economy for the future for Green tech to be the new gold rush. Yes Elec will go up and everything else but the Gov is compenstating that with handouts from tax collected to the less well off. Yes it is wealth redistribution and unless a change of gov in a years time I can tell you how it went. My view it will be a small blip on the economic radar and will level out just like when we introduced a nation wide VAT tax. This is the thing, developing countries cannot compete with this and it is where the West has a trump card if you let it go too long then like you say. All the progress made with living standards by the developed countries will just go downhill. My prediction for the future is the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs will be a greenie regardless of whether you belive in it or not. I put solar panels (elec) on my roof in preparation for this and I am glad i did. A good investment that will have a return of payback in 3.5 yrs at todays elec prices less if it goes up.
Huh?
There is no nationwide carbon tax levelled in the USA, although a few states have introduced the tax. Colorado passed a carbon tax in November 2006. California has a carbon tax of 4.4 cents per tonne of CO2. In Maryland, a tonne of CO2 is worth $5 from a source emitting more than a million tonnes of carbon dioxide during that year.
xxxrayted

Brook Park, OH

#2576 Jun 2, 2012
Philliproy wrote:
As usual leftwing nutjobs prefer to ignore the glaring fact that Japanese companies also pay far less effective tax rates than the actual corporate income tax in Japan, just like American companies.
Warmongering Amerika has the highest corporate income tax in the world to pay for its endless wars. Show that banner high on your Statue of Liberty!
And, that is exactly why companies are fleeing high-income tax states like New York, for example.
It's not only New York, but statistics show that the top ten taxed states are losing businesses and population to the ten lowest taxed states. I live in Cleveland where it's suspected that taxation had something to do with LeBron James leaving the Cavilers. At the time, there was a special tax just for the wealthy in our state, although I don't know if Governor Kasich changed all that. It was something like 5%, but that 5% amounts to over a million dollars a year of savings for people like LeBron James. So why not leave?

The biggest fallacy of the left is that when you tax somebody, they just sit there and pay the tax. There is no truth to that. When government increases taxes or creates regulation that will cost money, people begin to use other strategies to avoid paying those taxes or evade new expensive regulations. They freeze pay increases for their workers, have them contribute more towards their medical coverage, leave the state if it's a problem with the state, and if it's a federal problem, leave the country altogether.
AnnAgain

Oakland, CA

#2577 Jun 2, 2012
Philliproy wrote:
As usual leftwing nutjobs prefer to ignore the glaring fact that Japanese companies also pay far less effective tax rates than the actual corporate income tax in Japan, just like American companies.
Warmongering Amerika has the highest corporate income tax in the world to pay for its endless wars. Show that banner high on your Statue of Liberty!
And, that is exactly why companies are fleeing high-income tax states like New York, for example.
Huh?
You're lucky to have the right to be the biggest asshat humanly possible!
Corporate taxes are actually the lowest of any nation, in fact the taxpayers (that’s us - you and I and our neighbors) hand out millions upon millions in refunds to highly profitable corporations! The corporate tax share has dropped from about 20% in the 1960s to under 9% in 2010. It is also revealed that US corporations paid only 13.4% of their profits in taxes between 2000 and 2005, compared to the OECD average of 16.1%. A similar PayUpNow.org analysis of 100 of the largest US companies found that less than 10% of pre-tax profits in 2010 were paid in non-deferred US federal income taxes. Corporate tax avoidance is rampant at the state level, too. A new study by Citizens for Tax Justice, which evaluated 265 large companies, determined that an average of 3% was paid in state taxes, less than half the average state tax rate of 6.2%.
AnnAgain

Oakland, CA

#2578 Jun 2, 2012
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
What you fail to understand is that taxing the so-called wealthy is no solution. Even if you took every last dime away from our millionaires and billionaires, it may be enough to run our federal government for about a year if that.
No one but you moronic GOPers and t-baggers are claiming that "taxing” the rich should equate to a "solution"! A fair tax system that taxes those that have a far greater stake in the nations infrastructure, financial and political system should be taxed accordingly. It's really quite simple and quite logical!
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>

So the problem is not tax collection. The problem is clearly spending which is what got Europe in trouble in the first place. Greeks retire at the age of 52 or something like that, while German citizens work to the age of 67, and they are trying to bail Greece out.
The pencil pushers have run the numbers here on taxing the wealthy. And mind you, you can't tax the wealthy without expecting some sort of ramifications. American workers will not receive raises, they will get lesser healthcare, they may lose their job because the company decided to go south or leave the country entirely.
Every action causes a reaction. This is something the pro-tax people just don't seem to get.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274...
Besides, taxes are lower then ever right now your entire argument is not only false it is right wing looney toons, it's laughable!
of course

Junction City, KS

#2579 Jun 2, 2012
AnnAgain wrote:
<quoted text>
Huh?
You're lucky to have the right to be the biggest asshat humanly possible!
Corporate taxes are actually the lowest of any nation, in fact the taxpayers (that’s us - you and I and our neighbors) hand out millions upon millions in refunds to highly profitable corporations! The corporate tax share has dropped from about 20% in the 1960s to under 9% in 2010. It is also revealed that US corporations paid only 13.4% of their profits in taxes between 2000 and 2005, compared to the OECD average of 16.1%. A similar PayUpNow.org analysis of 100 of the largest US companies found that less than 10% of pre-tax profits in 2010 were paid in non-deferred US federal income taxes. Corporate tax avoidance is rampant at the state level, too. A new study by Citizens for Tax Justice, which evaluated 265 large companies, determined that an average of 3% was paid in state taxes, less than half the average state tax rate of 6.2%.
This should come as no surprise. It didn`t happen overnight. It`s a clear plan by Wall Street, Corporate America, and the Right to garner cash and political clout. It`s so overt in Kansas, it`s almost laughable. It`s become an increasingly exclusive country club, and the dues are paid by the very people it`s members look down on with scorn. Guys like RayTed have been tricked into thinking it`s what is best for him, then they laugh at him and slam the door in his face. It`s a viscious cycle of greed and dirty tricks against the vanishing middle class. The goal of being a country with two classes can`t happen fast enough for the wealthy. Not content to be comfortably affluent, they want it all for themselves and damn the working populace. To not see this is to be in denial, naive, or just not very intelligent. They prey on the latter, as evidenced by the vague, rambling, uninformed mantra their faithful followers recite daily.
it comes down to greed

Junction City, KS

#2580 Jun 2, 2012
In 2005, the average CEO in the United States earned 262 times the pay of the average worker.

In 2005, a CEO earned more in one workday (there are 260 in a year) than an average worker earned in 52 weeks.

The 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s have been prosperous times for top U.S. executives, especially relative to other wage earners.

In 1965, U.S. CEOs in major companies earned 24 times more than an average worker; this ratio grew to 35 in 1978 and to 71 in 1989.

The ratio surged in the 1990s and hit 300 at the end of the recovery in 2000. The fall in the stock market reduced CEO stock-related pay (e.g., options) causing CEO pay to moderate to 143 times that of an average worker in 2002.

Since then, however, CEO pay has exploded and by 2005 the average CEO was paid $10,982,000 a year, or 262 times that of an average worker ($41,861).

These CEOs made their millions on the backs of the working class - then they whine and cry and look for every way out of paying taxes. Maybe if they paid their employees (the ones responsible for their wealth) a better wage, the government wouldn't need to look at raising taxes.
Churmudgeon

United States

#2581 Jun 2, 2012
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not only New York, but statistics show that the top ten taxed states are losing businesses and population to the ten lowest taxed states. I live in Cleveland where it's suspected that taxation had something to do with LeBron James leaving the Cavilers. At the time, there was a special tax just for the wealthy in our state, although I don't know if Governor Kasich changed all that. It was something like 5%, but that 5% amounts to over a million dollars a year of savings for people like LeBron James. So why not leave?
The biggest fallacy of the left is that when you tax somebody, they just sit there and pay the tax. There is no truth to that. When government increases taxes or creates regulation that will cost money, people begin to use other strategies to avoid paying those taxes or evade new expensive regulations. They freeze pay increases for their workers, have them contribute more towards their medical coverage, leave the state if it's a problem with the state, and if it's a federal problem, leave the country altogether.
Your correct Ive stated before you can only police govern & tax a people as far as they will let you. After a certian point they will find a way to side step the intrusion.
Spocko

Oakland, CA

#2582 Jun 2, 2012
xxxrayted wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not only New York, but statistics show that the top ten taxed states are losing businesses and population to the ten lowest taxed states. I live in Cleveland where it's suspected that taxation had something to do with LeBron James leaving the Cavilers. At the time, there was a special tax just for the wealthy in our state, although I don't know if Governor Kasich changed all that. It was something like 5%, but that 5% amounts to over a million dollars a year of savings for people like LeBron James. So why not leave?
The biggest fallacy of the left is that when you tax somebody, they just sit there and pay the tax. There is no truth to that. When government increases taxes or creates regulation that will cost money, people begin to use other strategies to avoid paying those taxes or evade new expensive regulations. They freeze pay increases for their workers, have them contribute more towards their medical coverage, leave the state if it's a problem with the state, and if it's a federal problem, leave the country altogether.
Republicans have been kvetching, spouting and grandstanding about the U.S. having the highest ‘statutory corporate tax’ rate in the world.“The United States is a world leader in countless ways.‘World’s Highest Taxes’ is a title we should give up as soon as possible,” Sen. John Barrasso (R-WY) on Fox News.
This is a constant refrain of babbling from Republicans, who then blame the supposedly high U.S. corporate tax rate for discouraging job creation. But as we’ve noted time and time again, while the U.S. has a high statutory corporate tax rate (meaning the rate on paper), U.S. corporations actually pay incredibly low taxes due to the ever-proliferating loopholes, credits, and deductions in the tax code and the use of overseas tax havens.
U.S. corporate taxes that were actually paid (the effective rate) fell to a 40 year low of 12.1 percent in fiscal year 2011, despite corporate profits rebounding to their pre-Great Recession heights. The U.S. both taxes its corporations less and raises less in revenue from corporate taxes than its foreign competitors – any questions from the peanut gallery?
xxxrayted

Brook Park, OH

#2583 Jun 2, 2012
AnnAgain wrote:
<quoted text>
No one but you moronic GOPers and t-baggers are claiming that "taxing” the rich should equate to a "solution"! A fair tax system that taxes those that have a far greater stake in the nations infrastructure, financial and political system should be taxed accordingly. It's really quite simple and quite logical!
<quoted text>
Besides, taxes are lower then ever right now your entire argument is not only false it is right wing looney toons, it's laughable!
If taxes are so low, why won't companies come back to the US? There has to be more of a reason than lower wages for workers although that is a straw on the camels back.

The US is not competitive when it comes to taxation. Even left-wingers like the late Steve Jobs understood that.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/business-cli...
agreed

Junction City, KS

#2584 Jun 2, 2012
Churmudgeon wrote:
<quoted text> Your correct Ive stated before you can only police govern & tax a people as far as they will let you. After a certian point they will find a way to side step the intrusion.
They will also say enough already to corporate greed, and basically have already. History repeats itself, and we`ve regressed to the 1890`s. The robber barons rose again, but are destined to fall, despite the best efforts of Wall Street and the conservative Right.
Churmudgeon

United States

#2585 Jun 2, 2012
agreed wrote:
<quoted text>They will also say enough already to corporate greed, and basically have already. History repeats itself, and we`ve regressed to the 1890`s. The robber barons rose again, but are destined to fall, despite the best efforts of Wall Street and the conservative Right.
Really? What about the largest employer in the USA. Wal Mart? Every Wal Mart I pass By has a full parking Lot. You Always have to wait in line to check out. And almost every thing they sell is a flawed regect or cheap imported shoddy merchndise.

Since: Apr 12

Location hidden

#2586 Jun 2, 2012
Churmudgeon wrote:
<quoted text> Where and when have I ever stated I hate the US goverment? our coop has a coal fired plant, The goverment due to the glowbull warming myth has decided to punish the coop for burning coal. They are trying to enact a carbon tax. That will make the average monthly electric bill be about $1000. Their will be less customers and that willl be the end of our Coop. A good thing that employ,s many and provides a safe reliable product at a reasonable cost. That is what I do hate goverment regulations that dont do anything but drive away productivity by increasing cost. I dont like tha goverment oversteppin their counstitional bounds. The best goverment governs the least. The health care mandate is a big intrusion into what should be left to the individual citizens.
You keep yammering about how you do everything for yourself and have no need for government, society or anyone else. Now you are saying that you are, indeed, a regular part of society and appreciate that government makes your life safer, easier and more enjoyable.

Right? Go ahead, admit it now and forever.

Yes, ACC is very real. Ask the people in New Mexico how they feel about ACC. Yes, your coal fired plant contributes to ACC. How much is your current electrical bill on average during the year?

Who is trying to enact a carbon tax and how will it be implemented and by whom and how and when? What is the projected percentage increase in prices on an average monthly basis?

How would taking in more money cause an end to the electricity co-op?

The individual mandate started with the very right wing Heritage Foundation. Why don't you current rightwingers believe in paying for health care? Why are you people so willing to let the rest of us pay for you?

Oh yeah, your new standard bearer Mutt Romputz was also for Obamacare and implemented it before he was against it as the political hack and liar he is.

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