Bringing Ukraine into the European Club

Apr 21, 2009 Read more: UNIAN 112

Many of us who watched the Orange Revolution with admiration four years ago have become disappointed with its failure to usher in a period of democratic stability and sustained reform.

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Since: May 14

Location hidden

#87 May 2, 2014
Provocation

Provocations are Russia's age-old modus operandi, which Western "experts" still haven't learned to read.

Everytime Russia wants to use power they stage themself as the target of attacks (shots in Mainila, apartment buildings in Moscow and Volgodonski, Georgia's alleged "attack" on their own territory etc. etc.). Russia's propaganda usually tells beforehand what kind of provocations we can expect next.

Now Russian propaganda tells about attacks on ethnic Russians and their churches, which is not true, but it doesn't have to be true because it's enough that a few Western media outlets repeat the lies, that way they can always be linked. Russia attacks first, then stages the needed "attacks" on Youtube for example, or with old material from Serbia, where it's shown how "Ukrainian Neo-Nazis" have smeared the Russian-Orthodox church with swastikas.

Provocation is vitally linked to projection, reflection, the lying mirror which turns things upside down. Then the circle is closed.

Projection

You get a good picture of Russia's nature and tactics by following what kind of accusations Russia slurs to others. It's about projection, in which they unfortunately always start to believe in themself, like the step mother in the fairy tale who demanded only pleasant answers from the mirror.

Russia accuses Ukrainians for being Fascists, because they are on the way to something like Fascism themself. Russia accuses US and EU for meddling with Ukraine's internal matters, because they are meddling themself. Russia accuses the West for supporting terrorists, because they support terrorists themself. Russia accuses Ukraine for illegal military troops, because Russia has them themself. Russia accuses the West for a geo-political zero-sum game, cold war -attitudes, propaganda war, coups, harrassing minority groups, arming extreme groups etc., because Russia does all of this themself.

Now our Finnish reader - the proning son of high school - gets angry and shouts: but the Americans do the same thing!

But it's not about that now. America's blunders in Afghanistan or Iraq don't make Russia's actions in Ukraine or Georgia acceptable.

Perhaps we Finns should think more of who's dominance would be more pleasant; Putin's Russia which is turning more and more authoritian, or despite all the critisism the democratic US? Do we want to dance to the tune of a cynical dictator or the idealistic economic power and democracy? The choice is easier than the one we had to make year 1940 between Stalin and Hitler.

Russia calling home their Washington-Ambassador is not only a way to avoid a dialogue while operations are in a critical phase, it's also a projection because Russia lives in a reversed reality with their propaganda machinery. According to them US has caused the crisis in Ukraine, not Russia. Ukraine's democratic rising was caused by CIA-agents, and in order to show their utter condemn Russia takes their Ambassador home like a small boy takes his red toy car from the sandbox.

The attack to Georgia was a projection from Kosovo, the attack to Crimea and it's 'prime minister's' illegal switch was a projection of Ukraine's revolution. In both cases Russia is creating for itself a distorted picture representing a reversed reality of what happened in Kosovo, Georgia and Ukraine and starts to make their propaganda true. The self-deception starts to execute itself.

If Putin's expansive imperialism isn't stopped in time, then the next crisis might take place close to the next energy tunnel to West. Putin got his will in Georgia, we will see Ukraine's destiny in the next few days. Both are Russia's gas tunnels to West. The third strategic route goes through Finland and Estonia. Fortunately Estonia belongs to NATO. Finland, Georgia and Ukraine doesn't.

The text is editorial. It's a summary of sources from several countries from Ukraine and elsewhere. Part of the text are direct quotes from sources who wish to remain anonymous.

end.

Since: May 14

Location hidden

#88 May 2, 2014
Propaganda part seems to be missing:

Propaganda

Russia's first and most important principle is propaganda. How did they use it in Ukraine's case?

In addition to the official propaganda, Russia's media has been harnessed to create myths about Ukraine already three months ago. This should have told those in the West who follow Russia and Ukraine what Russia is up to. Every move Yanukovitsh made, as well as every move Russia made after that, was predictable just from the viewpoint of what kind of narratives the Russian propaganda attempted to create, what they fed to the Western media through their "mover and shaker" agents and helpful fools. The problem has been that it's clear the West doesn't recognize Russian propaganda, they tell themself that it's an equal "point of view" next to the other objective sources. The lie is never a "second opinion", it's simply a lie. And just like Goebbels used to teach and what people like Ilja Ehrenburg learned; the bigger the lie is, the more it's believed in.

Together with propaganda they start to squeeze the other principle: intimidation.

Intimidation

Here in the West we wonder why Russians always play themself offside. But in Russia's game rules offsides are dismissed. They just deal them out to others.

Because Russia doesn't care if it's liked or not. In Russia they believe in power and force. Russians love to think that others can hate them as much as they want as long as they are afraid of Russia. They want to be feared. Hence Russia's horns talk regularly in the same style as Hitler and bin Laden, although they could if they wanted use the Western vague and diplomatic language. That's why Russia also shows and uses power - to make clear that it has no intention whatsoever to obey any rules.

Russia does what Russia wants for as long as they face a stronger power, or a power that can at least slow them down. Just like the brown-shirt -trash did on their way to power, to arrogance - and in the end to their own destruction. But if only someone had stopped them earlier. Hitler was the destructor of Germany's nation, not the savior. In Germany they learned their lesson. Did Russia learn from Stalin? Quite many seem to idolize Lenin and Stalin in Putin's nation. These two are the bloodiest butchers in world history after Mao. And who did they destroy most? Their own people.

To support intimidation and propaganda provocation is needed:

Since: May 14

Location hidden

#89 May 2, 2014
sorry for double post of propaganda
Xee

Glebe, Australia

#90 May 2, 2014
Well, I won't go into detail but simply put, Russia saw an opportunity to take Crimea and are now interfering in East Ukraine. I think Yanuko was persuaded or played by Putin to resign and flee Ukraine after he (suddenly) agreed to the deal about holding new elections. Anyway that is not what I want to talk about.

I spent 6 months travelling through Central and Eastern Europe. I spent some time in the Ukraine. The differences in mentality between the pro Ukrainians in the west and russian speakers in the east are stark. In my opinion, I found the people in the west more hospitable, welcoming, progressive and very European like. But in the east, it was miserable, kind of dangerous, backwards and anti European.

Well, I am not surprised by what I am seeing in the news or what I am hearing from friends in Kiev. The east has become chaotic and is being run by criminals. They are certainly putting on good show but it is really sad to watch.

My opinion is this - East Ukraine is lost and will be too difficult and costly to regain control. I don't know where the most of the raw resources are but if they are in the east and Crimea then that is a real shame.

Anyway, I think Kiev should just cease the territories to the pro Russians and negotiate the new eastern border. Once agreed, any Russians living in the west should be given a choice to recognise the new authority in the west or move to the east.

West Ukraine can get on with the business of reforming their economy and institutions. It will be painful for people but it must be done. All they need to do is think about the transformation that occurred in Poland during the 90s. Eventually, West Ukraine will be accepted into Europe.

Those in the east feeling nostalgic for the old Russia, well nothing will really change. The region will probably remain backward, insignificant and corrupt. Sure, they will benefit from russian investment but it will be interesting to see who will benefit from it.

The rest of the world should not recognise the eastern territory and maintain sanctions on Russia. Perhaps the people in the east will wake up and realise what a terrible mistake they have made by siding with Russia once they realise how prosperous western ukraine becomes.

Success is the sweetest of revenge.

Maybe history will repeat itself and the people will want to reunite with the west. Maybe Ukraine will get an opportunity to reclaim its territory without having to confront Russia because the will of the people will be strong and there will be majority consensus. It will be a bit like the German reunification, well that is my hope but who knows.

Glory to the real ukraine, my heart goes out to your nation and people.
Pro Ukraine

London, UK

#91 May 3, 2014
Xee wrote:
Well, I won't go into detail but simply put, Russia saw an opportunity to take Crimea and are now interfering in East Ukraine. I think Yanuko was persuaded or played by Putin to resign and flee Ukraine after he (suddenly) agreed to the deal about holding new elections. Anyway that is not what I want to talk about.
I spent 6 months travelling through Central and Eastern Europe. I spent some time in the Ukraine. The differences in mentality between the pro Ukrainians in the west and russian speakers in the east are stark. In my opinion, I found the people in the west more hospitable, welcoming, progressive and very European like. But in the east, it was miserable, kind of dangerous, backwards and anti European.
Well, I am not surprised by what I am seeing in the news or what I am hearing from friends in Kiev. The east has become chaotic and is being run by criminals. They are certainly putting on good show but it is really sad to watch.
My opinion is this - East Ukraine is lost and will be too difficult and costly to regain control. I don't know where the most of the raw resources are but if they are in the east and Crimea then that is a real shame.
Anyway, I think Kiev should just cease the territories to the pro Russians and negotiate the new eastern border. Once agreed, any Russians living in the west should be given a choice to recognise the new authority in the west or move to the east.
West Ukraine can get on with the business of reforming their economy and institutions. It will be painful for people but it must be done. All they need to do is think about the transformation that occurred in Poland during the 90s. Eventually, West Ukraine will be accepted into Europe.
Those in the east feeling nostalgic for the old Russia, well nothing will really change. The region will probably remain backward, insignificant and corrupt. Sure, they will benefit from russian investment but it will be interesting to see who will benefit from it.
The rest of the world should not recognise the eastern territory and maintain sanctions on Russia. Perhaps the people in the east will wake up and realise what a terrible mistake they have made by siding with Russia once they realise how prosperous western ukraine becomes.
Success is the sweetest of revenge.
Maybe history will repeat itself and the people will want to reunite with the west. Maybe Ukraine will get an opportunity to reclaim its territory without having to confront Russia because the will of the people will be strong and there will be majority consensus. It will be a bit like the German reunification, well that is my hope but who knows.
Glory to the real ukraine, my heart goes out to your nation and people.
You make some good points, certainly people in Western Ukraine are very friendly and are far less xenophobic than those in the East, not the picture the pro-Russians would have you believe.
Maybe it would be better to let part of Eastern Ukraine join Russia, let them learn their lesson the hard way, they'd soon be begging to be part of Ukraine again. The only problem I have with that is would Putin want to stop there or would he want more? It seems to me he wants all of Eastern and Southern Ukraine and possibly Kyiv, maybe he wants the whole of Ukraine, who knows except him?
tarmo

Tallinn, Estonia

#92 May 3, 2014
just noticed wrote:
<quoted text>
Itís so entertaining to read your and Georgeís posts. One questions, what Planet you two live on. The benefits of being in EU are well known from looking at the economies of Greece, Bulgaria, Portugal, Spain, and even Italy. The EU has a program of austerity resulted in...
Where?
Almost all the EU member states are running a budget deficit. The average annual deficit is around 6% of GDP and the average compound debt is around 90%.
Greece, Portugal, Spain and Italy are all running budget deficits - often to the tune of 10% of GDP annually. Where is the austerity??????????

It is so entertaining to read those blaming EU of austerity :-)
just noticed wrote:
<quoted text>
Putin is a great leader. If he was not great, and would not be working for his country, and his people, the West would love him; because he would then be working for the Western colonizing powers, in the fashion these stooges in Kiev are doing now.
Putin is the leader of blatnoi.
Xee

Glebe, Australia

#93 May 3, 2014
Pro Ukraine wrote:
<quoted text>You make some good points, certainly people in Western Ukraine are very friendly and are far less xenophobic than those in the East, not the picture the pro-Russians would have you believe.
Maybe it would be better to let part of Eastern Ukraine join Russia, let them learn their lesson the hard way, they'd soon be begging to be part of Ukraine again. The only problem I have with that is would Putin want to stop there or would he want more? It seems to me he wants all of Eastern and Southern Ukraine and possibly Kyiv, maybe he wants the whole of Ukraine, who knows except him?
Yes, I am starting to think that Russia under Putin can not be trusted and I would not be surprised if they have greater expansionist plans. After all, Putin said that the downfall of the Soviet Union was a national tragedy. Perhaps he feels a sense of destiny to restore Russia to its former glory? Let's look at the facts.

Chechnya - Crushed

Georgia - Lost territory and the EU and the US did nothing

Armenia abandoned trade negotiations with the EU (influenced by Russia when they threatened to sell weapons to Azerbaijan) and joined the customs union.

Russia is audaciously seeking out opportunities in the Middle East, in particular Egypt and Jordan. This is being done on purpose to try and break the hegemony that the US has in the area. Also, there is a massive potential to sell arms (they already negotiated a $3B arms deal with Egypt) and getting access to the energy resources in the region.

And Iran and Syria could not have a better friend than Russia who are only more than willing to help and with blatant disregard of western sanctions. Apparently, Iran has negotiated a $20B oil for goods.

Resource rich Central Asia is well under the control and influence of Russia so no risk of being encircled by the US and NATO there.

Putin realises that the EU is divided on Ukraine and that makes him feel emboldened to interfere in Ukraine.

(To answer your question, yes Putin would like all of Ukraine to cooperate and join the customs union but he is prepared to rip it up if he does not get his way)

Russia has no qualms about using its energy resources as a political tool or imposing strong measures on countries that do not tow the line (like placing an embargo on Georgian, Moldovan, and Ukrainian products).

And let's not forget that Russia and China cooperate militarily which of course poses a major threat to the US.

So the picture is rather telling and makes me worry about what designs Russia has on the the Baltic States and those Eastern European countries bordering the EU.
European

United States

#94 May 3, 2014
Bringing Ukraine into the European Club? You must be joking.

We don't want these animals in our club.
assesment

Toronto, Canada

#95 May 3, 2014
You can bet that Putin does not want the West Ukraine either. He would want none of Ukraine, if he wasnít encircled by NATO, and he sees that NATO is pushing further towards Russiaís border, so he wants the East Ukraine as a buffer zone, to prevent NATO from arriving into Moscow.

Since: May 14

Location hidden

#96 May 8, 2014
Wonder how many of 100 Europeans would now say they indeed care about Ukraine, its national destiny and future? 2-3? Well, I'm from Czech R. myself and you know... being European do not give even a piece about the happenings in Ukraine. Even news and tweets about the being started work on "star wars" next episode interest me more than the coup in Ukraine does. Surely that news that allegedly Europe is going to give 15 billion aid to Kiev... it cannot but kills. Have I missed something or did Europe hold lottery and Ukraine won it buying at it no even a ticket?? Those talks... "Europe must bring Ukraine into the EU club", "Europe must sign association with Ukraine", "Europe must support Kiev"...- it's all about my blind dog's shit (she's 14 yr now)! They who are going to give these billions to kiev should appear somewhere in Athens without guards and announce about the decision right there first.
reality check

United States

#97 May 8, 2014
Pro-Ukraine 88 wrote:
sorry for double post of propaganda
ALL your posts are propaganda.
Wandrey

Limerick, Ireland

#98 May 8, 2014
If i was ukrainian citizen in European Ukraine, i would say i care for Ukraine and leave the country for to find work somewhere else. Like it happened in Poland.
Je me souviens

United States

#99 May 8, 2014
Where would you go? Brussels would call you a 'terrorist' and refuse you entry.

Come to Quebec, we LOVE to defy our federal capital. We made them bend at the knees long ago.
Wandrey

Limerick, Ireland

#100 May 8, 2014
Nice.
Wandrey

Limerick, Ireland

#101 May 8, 2014
Maybe Iceland?
Yep2

Gainesville, FL

#102 May 8, 2014
Buffer zone begat buffer zone..

who begat buffer zone

who begat buffer zone...

Buffer zone my ashtray.

Russia is a national protection racket.
Pro Ukraine

UK

#103 May 8, 2014
Wepot wrote:
Wonder how many of 100 Europeans would now say they indeed care about Ukraine, its national destiny and future? 2-3? Well, I'm from Czech R. myself and you know... being European do not give even a piece about the happenings in Ukraine. Even news and tweets about the being started work on "star wars" next episode interest me more than the coup in Ukraine does. Surely that news that allegedly Europe is going to give 15 billion aid to Kiev... it cannot but kills. Have I missed something or did Europe hold lottery and Ukraine won it buying at it no even a ticket?? Those talks... "Europe must bring Ukraine into the EU club", "Europe must sign association with Ukraine", "Europe must support Kiev"...- it's all about my blind dog's shit (she's 14 yr now)! They who are going to give these billions to kiev should appear somewhere in Athens without guards and announce about the decision right there first.
You're not from the Czech Republic, you fraud, you're yet another Russkie propagandist.
The loan to Ukraine is from the IMF, not the EU, if the EU had $15 billion to give to Ukraine then Yanukovich would have signed the EU agreement and Ukraine would now be a peaceful place.
Pro Ukraine

UK

#104 May 8, 2014
[QUOTE who="V.Putin"]<qu oted text>
ALL my posts are propaganda.[/QUOTE]You said it Vlad.:-)
western hysteria

United States

#105 May 8, 2014
What self respecting European would want these disgusting creatures from Ukraine that celebrate pogroms and burn people alive and beat the ones who survived to death, while chanting Glory to Ukraine in their community?

I mean, really. They might as well chant 'Glory to Satan'.
Yep2

Gainesville, FL

#106 May 8, 2014
That "United States" proxy doesn't fool anyone Valley Boy

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