Ron Paul on the Verge of Going Third ...

Ron Paul on the Verge of Going Third Party?

There are 29315 comments on the National Ledger story from Jan 12, 2008, titled Ron Paul on the Verge of Going Third Party?. In it, National Ledger reports that:

Rep. Ron Paul's 1988 Libertarian Presidential campaign started with great promise: A former four-term Republican US Congressman running on the ticket of America's third largest party. via National Ledger

Join the discussion below, or Read more at National Ledger.

LocalBoy

Carmel, IN

#30199 Oct 15, 2013
" No person or
group has the ability to control outcomes in an antiseptic
human lab .... any attempts to do so are infected by unintended
consequences."

Are you suggesting our federal reserve board cannot do what they claim they are charged with ?
Its almost like saying our leaders do not know what they do not know.......

I'm confused with the sinking ship story.....the claim it had a negative effect on the economy seems shallow......betting on the come was the act that had negative consequences, ship wrecks are an easily predictable problem. Why was the bankers making loans with capital that was not yet delivered ?

If a large amount of the supply of oil was suddenly destroyed would oil prices rise to offset the scarcity ? If so, why did'nt the real value of gold rise when the ship was lost, offsetting the effects of scarcity ? Seems to me the problem with the ship wreck story is that gold prices were artificially fixed, otherwise the value of the gold the banks had in reserve would have offset the loss........

Serious question - How does spontaneous order deal with unintended consequences ?
LocalBoy

Carmel, IN

#30200 Oct 15, 2013
It is assumed our congress is bought and sold. If so, who buys them ?
LocalBoy

Carmel, IN

#30201 Oct 15, 2013
Bill R wrote:
I had mentioned the MSM love affair with Hillary,
so I was somewhat surprised when the New York Times
ran a scathing expose of the financial abuses of
the Clinton Foundation. It was run on Drudge for
2 days and leaves little doubt that hundreds of
millions of dollars have been moved around and
given to cronies ... former Clinton officials ...
have been used for political, not charitable purposes. How you can run at a loss when hundreds
of millions are taken in is astounding. Somehow
the IRS doesn't bother them.
One interesting point ... much of Hillary's "diplo-
matic success" is focused on the Saudis, Qatar,
and other "friendly" Middle East nations. Turns
out those she worked with, especially the Saudis,
just happened to give millions to the Clinton
Foundation.
Now, you would think such a NYT expose would show
up on the MSM and be reprinted in other news rags..
but NO, not so much as a word.
It was never mentioned in MSM that in 1991 the oil wells of Kuwait were owned by the sitting President.
In fact, the MSM has given a pass to the entire Zappata oil story..........and that of BP
Bill R

Halsey, OR

#30202 Oct 15, 2013
LocalBoy wrote:
" No person or
group has the ability to control outcomes in an antiseptic
human lab .... any attempts to do so are infected by unintended
consequences."
Are you suggesting our federal reserve board cannot do what they claim they are charged with ?
Its almost like saying our leaders do not know what they do not know.......
I'm confused with the sinking ship story.....the claim it had a negative effect on the economy seems shallow......betting on the come was the act that had negative consequences, ship wrecks are an easily predictable problem. Why was the bankers making loans with capital that was not yet delivered ?
If a large amount of the supply of oil was suddenly destroyed would oil prices rise to offset the scarcity ? If so, why did'nt the real value of gold rise when the ship was lost, offsetting the effects of scarcity ? Seems to me the problem with the ship wreck story is that gold prices were artificially fixed, otherwise the value of the gold the banks had in reserve would have offset the loss........
Serious question - How does spontaneous order deal with unintended consequences ?
Hey, Localboy, good to hear from you again!!! We've missed you
and, I'm sure others would agree, I hope you stick around!

I'll hold to my contention that indeed they do not know what they
do not know. They (the Fed) can with today's metrics largely
determine the outcome of any decision they make, but it is really
impossible to consider or project the full ramifications of the
decisions they make. And to be honest, I doubt they give a damn.
The common people don't measure in their calculations when profit
and power are concerned.

Regarding the 1857 shipwreck, my understanding is that the gold
from California gold mining was purchased in California by the
banks from their East Coast reserves to leverage loans promised
to both industrial interests (economic expansion) and smaller
banks. When the ship went down in a storm hundreds of lives were
lost and the gold was not recovered for many decades, after new
technology allowed the ship to be found and the gold recovered.
Back in 1857 and the years immediately following the banks were
unable to fulfill their promised loans and their losses from the
purchase of gold never received depleted their reserves. This
results in further losses and an economic disaster.

We cannot apply the economic metrics of 2013 to the almost
primeval standards of 1857, so your use of an oil example does
not really apply. Back in 1857 gold mattered and oil was yet to
become so much as a pimple on a pig's butt.

My use of this example was not to get into the details of an 1857
shipwreck. It was to demonstrate that, contrary to IO's assertion,
unforeseeable and/or unintentional elements influence outcomes in
ways we cannot predict.

Anyhow, welcome back!
Bill R

Halsey, OR

#30203 Oct 15, 2013
LocalBoy wrote:
" No person or
group has the ability to control outcomes in an antiseptic
human lab .... any attempts to do so are infected by unintended
consequences."
Are you suggesting our federal reserve board cannot do what they claim they are charged with ?
Its almost like saying our leaders do not know what they do not know.......
I'm confused with the sinking ship story.....the claim it had a negative effect on the economy seems shallow......betting on the come was the act that had negative consequences, ship wrecks are an easily predictable problem. Why was the bankers making loans with capital that was not yet delivered ?
If a large amount of the supply of oil was suddenly destroyed would oil prices rise to offset the scarcity ? If so, why did'nt the real value of gold rise when the ship was lost, offsetting the effects of scarcity ? Seems to me the problem with the ship wreck story is that gold prices were artificially fixed, otherwise the value of the gold the banks had in reserve would have offset the loss........
Serious question - How does spontaneous order deal with unintended consequences ?
Localboy, I have no idea what you mean by "spontaneous order,"
but I can address the "unintended consequences" portion of your
question.

I've had the good fortune to have lived in 2 "gateway" communities
near national parks ... Glacier Park and Yellowstone Park. I can
tell you that not only has the "partial" government shutdown had
an enormous impact on those "gateway" communities (Hungry Horse,
West Glacier, West Yellowstone, Gardiner, etc.), but because of the tactics employed by the rangers their families now live in communities that hold them in contempt. It will take years for them to gather the respect of their neighbors because their abuse of power over things so simple as being civil and allowing cars
to proceed safely.

For example, put yourself in family car headed to West Yellowstone
and a 3 day visit only to discover you cannot enter the park when
your home is in Missouri. Take a look at the map and consider the
choice of routes. Then consider that it was your "dream vacation"
of camping in Yellowstone you had saved for for a couple of years.
You see my point?

Or consider the old guy who finally gets an Honor Flight to
Washington DC and then is told he can't go into the WW2 memorial.
Or consider the woman who drove 500 miles to visit the grave of
her husband At Arlington National Cemetery.

We are now rapidly losing the confidence of our people. I for one
harbor no illusions: Americans no longer believe that Washington
represents their interests. Government is on hyper-speed to
gather information and allow them to construct a resume on each
and every American. The game is about intimidation and control.

LocalBoy

Carmel, IN

#30204 Oct 15, 2013
Bill R wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey, Localboy, good to hear from you again!!! We've missed you
and, I'm sure others would agree, I hope you stick around!
I'll hold to my contention that indeed they do not know what they
do not know. They (the Fed) can with today's metrics largely
determine the outcome of any decision they make, but it is really
impossible to consider or project the full ramifications of the
decisions they make. And to be honest, I doubt they give a damn.
The common people don't measure in their calculations when profit
and power are concerned.
Regarding the 1857 shipwreck, my understanding is that the gold
from California gold mining was purchased in California by the
banks from their East Coast reserves to leverage loans promised
to both industrial interests (economic expansion) and smaller
banks. When the ship went down in a storm hundreds of lives were
lost and the gold was not recovered for many decades, after new
technology allowed the ship to be found and the gold recovered.
Back in 1857 and the years immediately following the banks were
unable to fulfill their promised loans and their losses from the
purchase of gold never received depleted their reserves. This
results in further losses and an economic disaster.
We cannot apply the economic metrics of 2013 to the almost
primeval standards of 1857, so your use of an oil example does
not really apply. Back in 1857 gold mattered and oil was yet to
become so much as a pimple on a pig's butt.
My use of this example was not to get into the details of an 1857
shipwreck. It was to demonstrate that, contrary to IO's assertion,
unforeseeable and/or unintentional elements influence outcomes in
ways we cannot predict.
Anyhow, welcome back!
Thanks
LocalBoy

Carmel, IN

#30205 Oct 15, 2013
Bill R wrote:
<quoted text>
Localboy, I have no idea what you mean by "spontaneous order,"
but I can address the "unintended consequences" portion of your
question.
I've had the good fortune to have lived in 2 "gateway" communities
near national parks ... Glacier Park and Yellowstone Park. I can
tell you that not only has the "partial" government shutdown had
an enormous impact on those "gateway" communities (Hungry Horse,
West Glacier, West Yellowstone, Gardiner, etc.), but because of the tactics employed by the rangers their families now live in communities that hold them in contempt. It will take years for them to gather the respect of their neighbors because their abuse of power over things so simple as being civil and allowing cars
to proceed safely.
For example, put yourself in family car headed to West Yellowstone
and a 3 day visit only to discover you cannot enter the park when
your home is in Missouri. Take a look at the map and consider the
choice of routes. Then consider that it was your "dream vacation"
of camping in Yellowstone you had saved for for a couple of years.
You see my point?
Or consider the old guy who finally gets an Honor Flight to
Washington DC and then is told he can't go into the WW2 memorial.
Or consider the woman who drove 500 miles to visit the grave of
her husband At Arlington National Cemetery.
We are now rapidly losing the confidence of our people. I for one
harbor no illusions: Americans no longer believe that Washington
represents their interests. Government is on hyper-speed to
gather information and allow them to construct a resume on each
and every American. The game is about intimidation and control.
In this picture honest people are treated poorly. At some point authority will yield to what is called the will of the people, or what I referred to as spontaneous order. Order from chaos without external force. The question is when do honest people reach a point where defiance of authority is rational. From my seat order is rational, whether by fiat or laizze faire. What you describe is not rational, it is not order it is force.

The so called teabaggers in the House have a new plan.....The dissent will capitulate on all big issues for one concession, Obamacare will apply to all members of the Congress. In other words the minority in opposition wants the leadership to live under their own rules......blasphemy...
UIdiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

#30206 Oct 15, 2013
Welcome back Local boy! I would say we missing few others, hopefully others rejoins , more merrier.

As both you discussing about whether it is "Spontaneose Order" or ' Unintentional Consequences' on part of those in power , if you both add word "Corporatism " into the debate, you find it 'Criminal negligence ' the correct wording is " Contrived Planning." Look to Gramm-Leech-bliley Act - an ugly (Illegal/immoral) piece of Legislative Act in US history that destroy the Glass_steagal Act , implemented by crooked Bi-partisanshop-of-horror agenda! Any more agrument from both of you?

If only others come back , then we can discern if 1 of 3 is correct in his assessment of use right words to describes what we talking about. BAhahahahahahaaa
Bill R

Halsey, OR

#30207 Oct 15, 2013
LocalBoy wrote:
<quoted text>Thanks
No problem! Just stick abound for the conversation and
the peculiar way Topix handles responses!
Bill R

Halsey, OR

#30208 Oct 15, 2013
LocalBoy wrote:
<quoted text>In this picture honest people are treated poorly. At some point authority will yield to what is called the will of the people, or what I referred to as spontaneous order. Order from chaos without external force. The question is when do honest people reach a point where defiance of authority is rational. From my seat order is rational, whether by fiat or laizze faire. What you describe is not rational, it is not order it is force.
The so called teabaggers in the House have a new plan.....The dissent will capitulate on all big issues for one concession, Obamacare will apply to all members of the Congress. In other words the minority in opposition wants the leadership to live under their own rules......blasphemy...
In my view rather than conceding any type of armed resistance to
the powers-that-be a better response is to use the same tactics
as those which have been used against conservatives and even
moderates over the past 30 years.

If you want to end the domination of liberals and progressives,
simply employ their well-practiced tactics. Begin by applying
the legal tactics of Saul Alinsky. Use the system against itself.

What if? What if conservatives chose to file for an extension on
April 15th and then again in August, foregoing any refunds until
whenever? There is nothing whatsoever illegal about filing for an
extension, especially if the person and couple has a refund due.
The Alinsky profile is to use the system against itself. There is
no reason why conservatives can't use the same tactics.

I recall an occasion back in the 60's when a certain university
was employing oppressive tactics against liberals ... their
response was to thousands of books out of the library and then
return them all at the same time ... burying the system. It was
Alinsky 101 because no rules or laws were broken.

My point is that the people ... the real people ... have an
incredible amount of power when they act in concert. There is
no need for violence. There really isn't any need for confronta-
tion of any sort. Building bunkers and filling up the shelves
with ammo accomplishes nothing except to release the T. Couch
potato warriors, nothing more.

In short, it is time for the conservatives to begin using the
very same playbook that progressives have used against middle
America and conservatives for the past 40 years. Righteous
rage ... as exemplified by the House ... proves and accomplishes
nothing. Actions by the people using the same playbook can
change history.
UIdiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

United States

#30209 Oct 16, 2013
Bill R wrote:
<quoted text>
In my view rather than conceding any type of armed resistance to
the powers-that-be a better response is to use the same tactics
as those which have been used against conservatives and even
moderates over the past 30 years.
If you want to end the domination of liberals and progressives,
simply employ their well-practiced tactics. Begin by applying
the legal tactics of Saul Alinsky. Use the system against itself.
What if? What if conservatives chose to file for an extension on
April 15th and then again in August, foregoing any refunds until
whenever? There is nothing whatsoever illegal about filing for an
extension, especially if the person and couple has a refund due.
The Alinsky profile is to use the system against itself. There is
no reason why conservatives can't use the same tactics.
I recall an occasion back in the 60's when a certain university
was employing oppressive tactics against liberals ... their
response was to thousands of books out of the library and then
return them all at the same time ... burying the system. It was
Alinsky 101 because no rules or laws were broken.
My point is that the people ... the real people ... have an
incredible amount of power when they act in concert. There is
no need for violence. There really isn't any need for confronta-
tion of any sort. Building bunkers and filling up the shelves
with ammo accomplishes nothing except to release the T. Couch
potato warriors, nothing more.
In short, it is time for the conservatives to begin using the
very same playbook that progressives have used against middle
America and conservatives for the past 40 years. Righteous
rage ... as exemplified by the House ... proves and accomplishes
nothing. Actions by the people using the same playbook can
change history.
Pssst Those in power iniates US martial law, Anti-protesting Act, NDAA, CISPA & SOPA, Cyber laws, and other civil liberty violation , and abuse of Constitution, the Illegal Extra-Constitutional agendas, ruined Habeous Corpus .... leaving many , of WE, the people with no choice but to arm ourselves, and hopefully no revolution is on horizon. I sure don't believe in violent uprising , as this don't resolve anything. So , it leave many with no choice , a conflagration can occur, if many are oppressed , so what you gonna do ? The final nailing for our America is Anti-protesting Act , and Internet is monitered and most likely wit Kill switch and filtered... Local boy see the Danger and many do, can't blame him or the others.
UIdiotRACEMAKEWO RLDPEACE

Astoria, NY

#30210 Oct 16, 2013
Hey NewsFlash , if you ever come on here to debate, hope you enjoy the intellectual challenge! Enjoy!
LocalBoy

Carmel, IN

#30211 Oct 16, 2013
UIdiotRACEMAKEWORLDPEACE wrote:
Welcome back Local boy! I would say we missing few others, hopefully others rejoins , more merrier.
As both you discussing about whether it is "Spontaneose Order" or ' Unintentional Consequences' on part of those in power , if you both add word "Corporatism " into the debate, you find it 'Criminal negligence ' the correct wording is " Contrived Planning." Look to Gramm-Leech-bliley Act - an ugly (Illegal/immoral) piece of Legislative Act in US history that destroy the Glass_steagal Act , implemented by crooked Bi-partisanshop-of-horror agenda! Any more agrument from both of you?
If only others come back , then we can discern if 1 of 3 is correct in his assessment of use right words to describes what we talking about. BAhahahahahahaaa
Perspective, IO
Looking out my window is not for finding problems or their causes. It is for planning the fix, refining the plan.

Spontaneous order as a solution, IO.......planning causes seems backwards....just sayin
LocalBoy

Carmel, IN

#30212 Oct 16, 2013
Bill R wrote:
<quoted text>
In my view rather than conceding any type of armed resistance to
the powers-that-be a better response is to use the same tactics
as those which have been used against conservatives and even
moderates over the past 30 years.
If you want to end the domination of liberals and progressives,
simply employ their well-practiced tactics. Begin by applying
the legal tactics of Saul Alinsky. Use the system against itself.
What if? What if conservatives chose to file for an extension on
April 15th and then again in August, foregoing any refunds until
whenever? There is nothing whatsoever illegal about filing for an
extension, especially if the person and couple has a refund due.
The Alinsky profile is to use the system against itself. There is
no reason why conservatives can't use the same tactics.
I recall an occasion back in the 60's when a certain university
was employing oppressive tactics against liberals ... their
response was to thousands of books out of the library and then
return them all at the same time ... burying the system. It was
Alinsky 101 because no rules or laws were broken.
My point is that the people ... the real people ... have an
incredible amount of power when they act in concert. There is
no need for violence. There really isn't any need for confronta-
tion of any sort. Building bunkers and filling up the shelves
with ammo accomplishes nothing except to release the T. Couch
potato warriors, nothing more.
In short, it is time for the conservatives to begin using the
very same playbook that progressives have used against middle
America and conservatives for the past 40 years. Righteous
rage ... as exemplified by the House ... proves and accomplishes
nothing. Actions by the people using the same playbook can
change history.
Funny....finally finished mine on the 14th, an amendment. And the last check for 2012, maybe

Yep, things of that nature are popping up all over the place.

Good news is this environment cant last long, better news is recognizing your allies are growing. Know your role and trust that others do the same.

I am being watched and quizzed nightly for a few more years, head back down workin.......we all have our jobs.

Sadly, a rational approach is to get a legal divorce. Think about that
Even more rational is take disability and bilk the system with cash earnings and continue to live beneath my means. Sadly some men are burdened with their principles and others are just burdens.

Instead the locals continue on....the way it was is the way it is.

In my area wall street has a lower approval rating than congress. Times are changing
LocalBoy

Carmel, IN

#30213 Oct 16, 2013
UIdiotRACEMAKEWORLDPEACE wrote:
<quoted text>Pssst Those in power iniates US martial law, Anti-protesting Act, NDAA, CISPA & SOPA, Cyber laws, and other civil liberty violation , and abuse of Constitution, the Illegal Extra-Constitutional agendas, ruined Habeous Corpus .... leaving many , of WE, the people with no choice but to arm ourselves, and hopefully no revolution is on horizon. I sure don't believe in violent uprising , as this don't resolve anything. So , it leave many with no choice , a conflagration can occur, if many are oppressed , so what you gonna do ? The final nailing for our America is Anti-protesting Act , and Internet is monitered and most likely wit Kill switch and filtered... Local boy see the Danger and many do, can't blame him or the others.
all that power, IO
all that ability to project force, all the spies, lies and theft.

All that IO and these fools cant cant control billygoats in third world mud puddles......whats the fear ?
No fear, it is a proven fact Washington could not manage a win if it was delivered to them. You fear a track record like that, IO ? really ?

Let em have it all, they will screw it up......its not fear, its simple toiling
Bill R

Halsey, OR

#30214 Oct 16, 2013
LocalBoy wrote:
<quoted text>all that power, IO
all that ability to project force, all the spies, lies and theft.
All that IO and these fools cant cant control billygoats in third world mud puddles......whats the fear ?
No fear, it is a proven fact Washington could not manage a win if it was delivered to them. You fear a track record like that, IO ? really ?
Let em have it all, they will screw it up......its not fear, its simple toiling
Localboy, it is actually kind of funny because the federal
government can't seem to manage a two-car funeral, let alone
micromanage an economy or a political landscape. For gosh sakes,
they had years (literally) to put together a website to allow
people to sign up for Obamacare and couldn't get the job done.
The 14 states who chose to go it alone have done it far better
than the "professionals." In my world the people responsible would
be fired. But that won't happen in this instance.

How long did it take insurance company "A" to produce a website
for enrolling with their company? How long did it take e-Harmony
or Christian Mingles to come up with theirs? Years??? My son, who
works for an international corporation, could do it in less than
two weeks and be drawn and quartered for taking so long.

The fact of the matter is that the federal government is now a
victim of its own propensity to micromanage and fill thousands of
empty pages with meaningless detail. Obamacare, an abomination
at 2,500 pages never read, now exceeds 30Xs more explanations and
rules. The POTUS has been given authority to make them as needed
and it goes along without challenge.

In my view it will collapse under its own weight because no one
will be able to make a decision. The same applies to the rules
and regs regarding surveillance.
Bill R

Halsey, OR

#30215 Oct 16, 2013
LocalBoy wrote:
<quoted text>Funny....finally finished mine on the 14th, an amendment. And the last check for 2012, maybe
Yep, things of that nature are popping up all over the place.
Good news is this environment cant last long, better news is recognizing your allies are growing. Know your role and trust that others do the same.
I am being watched and quizzed nightly for a few more years, head back down workin.......we all have our jobs.
Sadly, a rational approach is to get a legal divorce. Think about that
Even more rational is take disability and bilk the system with cash earnings and continue to live beneath my means. Sadly some men are burdened with their principles and others are just burdens.
Instead the locals continue on....the way it was is the way it is.
In my area wall street has a lower approval rating than congress. Times are changing
Please explain "I am being watched and quizzed nightly."
LocalBoy

Carmel, IN

#30216 Oct 16, 2013
Bill R wrote:
<quoted text>
Please explain "I am being watched and quizzed nightly."
Twins, freshman year of high school
EASY MONEY

Thailand

#30217 Oct 16, 2013
Well! All of my worries are over, for now. I was afraid that I was going to have to cut back on my Jack Daniels and girlfriends, but those clowns in Congress have saved the day. Now fire them all, for being stupid in the first place!
Bill R

Halsey, OR

#30218 Oct 16, 2013
LocalBoy wrote:
<quoted text>Twins, freshman year of high school
Double trouble! Enjoy!

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