Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Oct 12, 2011 Full story: CNN 32,004

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32903 Feb 28, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree you're using a straw man argument that if Smith had written a correct account of the first vision, it would have been the same thing written correctly as a mirror image each time he wrote it without variance. I agree that you have a straw man argument insinuating Smith should have had the memory capacity to write that experience exactly the same each time he wrote it.
I know no one that can do that. I have heard people repeat stories they said happened to them many many times over the years and their was always variances. And the more they told the story, the more things you heard you didn't hear the previous time in most cases. Rarely have I heard a repeated story have less and less detail as it was told again and again over the years.
You're being extreme in an illogical way dude. Understand? According to your logic, the last few times that Smith wrote of the vision he should have went back to only claiming he saw God. Not God and the Father both.
You can be an idiot about this all you want. And from this post it seems you want to be a lot. But leaving out seeing God in any version is more than a little lapse in memory. And a hell of a lot more than just a variance.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32904 Feb 28, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You didn't read the info. You're speaking crap again. Did you know that Josiah stated Smith had actually found a few items where he claimed they were. So Smith wasn't striking out. He had hits and misses in this looking glass thing he did.
Well, please give us a source of such a claim. I've never seen it. But thanks in admitting he was a treasure hunter.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32905 Feb 28, 2014
He wasn't so lucky this time, unless you want to count the free meat he got from the black sheep:

" Joseph Smith, Sen., came to me one night, and told me that Joseph Smith Jr. had been looking in his glass, and had seen, not many rods from his house, two or three kegs of gold and silver… Joseph, Sen. first made a circle, twelve or fourteen feet in diameter. This circle, said he, contains the treasure. He then stuck in the ground a row of witch hazel sticks, around the said circle, for the purpose of keeping off the evil spirits. Within this circle he made another, of about eight or ten feet in diameter. He walked around three times on the periphery of this last circle, muttering to himself something which I could not understand. He next stuck a steel rod in the centre of the circles, and then enjoined profound silence upon us, lest we should arouse the evil spirit who had the charge of these treasures. After we had dug a trench about five feet in depth around the rod, the old man… went to the house to inquire of young Joseph the cause of our disappointment. He soon returned and said, that Joseph had remained all this time in the house, looking in his stone and watching the motions of the evil spirit – that he saw the spirit come up to the ring and as soon as it beheld the cone which we had formed around the rod, it caused the money to sink… another time, they devised a scheme, by which they might satiate their hunger, with the mutton of one of my sheep. They had seen in my flock a sheep, a large, fat, black weather. Old Joseph and one of the boys came to me one day, and said that Joseph Jr. had discovered some very remarkable and valuable treasures, which could be procured only in one way. That way, was as follows:– That a black sheep should be taken to the ground where the treasures were concealed – that after cutting its throat, it should be led around in a circle while bleeding. This being done, the wrath of the evil spirit would be appeased: the treasures could then be obtained, and my share of them was to be four fold. To gratify my curiosity, I let them have a large fat sheep. They afterwards informed me, that the sheep was killed pursuant to commandment; but as there was some mistake in the process, it did not have the desired effect. This, I believe, is the only time they ever made money-digging a profitable business.(Mormonism Unvailed, 1834, pages 238-239; also reproduced in Early Mormon Documents, Vol. 2, pp.59-61)"

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32906 Feb 28, 2014
As historian Richard L. Bushman has written:‘There had always been evidence of it ("money-digging in the Smith family") in the hostile affidavits from the Smith’s neighbors, evidence which Mormons dismissed as hopelessly biased. But when I got into the sources, I found evidence from friendly contemporaries as well, Martin Harris, Joseph Knight, Oliver Cowdery, and Lucy Mack Smith. All of these witnesses persuaded me treasure-seeking and vernacular magic were part of the Smith family tradition, and that the hostile witnesses, including the 1826 trial record, had to be taken seriously.’ BYU historian Marvin S. Hill has likewise observed:‘Now, most historians, Mormon or not, who work with the sources, accept as fact Joseph Smith’s career as village magician.’" (Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, 2nd ed. 1998, p.59)

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#32907 Mar 1, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
That doesn't make my statement wrong.
Credible sources are strong evidence.

Hating your dad + your anti-Mormon website where you try to sell anti-Mormon literature and beg people to send you cigarettes for their stories and than a woman actually did it... her name you said was Carol IDK I didnt see the letter... but than you slander her and insult her entire family.

You really need to get over your hatred of your dad... do you have anything to do with your family?

I can understand there are some people you are toxic to you and you just have to get rid of him... but you haven't said (not that I"ve seen) what your dad/family did so wrong.

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#32908 Mar 1, 2014
I guess I just don't understand it... that's all and you seem very bitter and mean because of your hatred.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32909 Mar 1, 2014
I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith, Jr. in November, 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called "money-diggers;" and his occupation was that of seeing, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat, and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure… Smith, and his father with several other "money-diggers" boarded at my house while they were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards, many years since. Young Smith gave the "money-diggers" great encouragement, at first, but when they had arrived in digging, to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found — he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see…

After these occurrences, young Smith made several visits at my house, and at length asked my consent to his marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused, and gave him my reasons for so doing; some of which were, that he was a stranger, and followed a business that I could not approve: he then left the place. Not long after this, he returned, and while I was absent from home, carried off my daughter, into the state of New York, where they were married without my approbation or consent… In a short time they returned…

Smith stated to me, that he had given up what he called "glass-looking," and that he expected to work hard for a living, and was willing to do so… Soon after this, I was informed they had brought a wonderful book of Plates down with them… The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret, was the same as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, and his hat over his face, while the Book of Plates were at the same time hid in the woods!(The Susquehanna Register, May 1, 1834)

Poor Joseph struck out again. LOL!!

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32910 Mar 1, 2014
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
Credible sources are strong evidence.
Hating your dad + your anti-Mormon website where you try to sell anti-Mormon literature and beg people to send you cigarettes for their stories and than a woman actually did it... her name you said was Carol IDK I didnt see the letter... but than you slander her and insult her entire family.
You really need to get over your hatred of your dad... do you have anything to do with your family?
I can understand there are some people you are toxic to you and you just have to get rid of him... but you haven't said (not that I"ve seen) what your dad/family did so wrong.
It's none of your business.
pearl

Kaysville, UT

#32911 Mar 1, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
I agree you're using a straw man argument that if Smith had written a correct account of the first vision, it would have been the same thing written correctly as a mirror image each time he wrote it without variance. I agree that you have a straw man argument insinuating Smith should have had the memory capacity to write that experience exactly the same each time he wrote it.
I know no one that can do that. I have heard people repeat stories they said happened to them many many times over the years and their was always variances. And the more they told the story, the more things you heard you didn't hear the previous time in most cases. Rarely have I heard a repeated story have less and less detail as it was told again and again over the years.
You're being extreme in an illogical way dude. Understand? According to your logic, the last few times that Smith wrote of the vision he should have went back to only claiming he saw God. Not God and the Father both.
Yeah, one shouldn't be expected to remember the details of the first time they meet God face to face, well except for what he was wearing of course. And one certainly shouldn't be expected to remember what the conversation one had with God concerned. The dialogue could have been about ones sins being forgiven or it could have been about prophesy, surely these things would be hard to recall.
pearl

Kaysville, UT

#32912 Mar 1, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
The following might interest you to give evidence of what I said..........
http://en.fairmormon.org/Primary_sources/Jose...
I was born in the town of Charon [Sharon] in the State of vermont North America on the twenty third day of December AD 1805 of goodly Parents who spared no pains to instructing me in the christian religion at the age of about ten years my Father Joseph Smith Siegnior moved to Palmyra Ontario County in the State of New York and being in indigent circumstances were obliged to labour hard for the support of a large Family having nine chilldren and as it required the exertions of all that were able to render any assistance for the support of the Family therefore we were deprived of the bennifit of an education suffice it to say I was mearly instructid in reading and writing and the ground rules of Arithmatic which constuted my whole literary acquirements.
So I see he could write. Do you think he could read what he wrote? And his writing abilities are about as good as some I've seen on topix. So much for the standards of today. His grammar skills appear to be somewhere between yours and mine. Doesn't really point to him being "near illiterate",{whatever that is} just a bad speller like me and really lousy at grammar like you.
pearl

Kaysville, UT

#32913 Mar 1, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
From the critics view point yes he did have to have everything worked out when you approach it all from hindsight.
Smith stated at 14 God told him he was a chosen person to reestablish his word and that he would receive gold plates to make more scripture from. That he would be the prophet of God's new church. Smith claimed that at 14 to family and later wrote of it.
So according to the critics view point and from what Smith claimed at 14, Smith all by himself pre-planned at 14 the next 24 years of his life and how they would take place. He couldn't evolve what he did from year to year. To much chance for things to go wrong. According to the critics logic, Smith planned out 24 years in stages and succeeded in making every single stage happen. That's the critics explanation because they claim God had nothing to do with it. So that leaves just Smith to making things happen. Don't like that non-God critic logic eh?
As you have pointed out, I'm just not that familiar with LDS` history and since you are, could you provide some documentation that shows were these claims of Boy Joe were made before the events took place? Where at fourteen years old did he make the claim of a conversation with God? Or where all these things written about years later? You keep saying he made this claim at fourteen, show me where.
pearl

Kaysville, UT

#32914 Mar 1, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Working on a long story.......family of nuts........visions of God.........a fruit of delusions......those are the things you claim you have been breaking down to me and others? Really? lol....really funny.
So tell me since you claim to have so many answers on this, your missing one very important part of this all. You never mentioned it or discussed it. That means you haven't considered it till now that I bring it up.
Everyone knows Smith was a run of the mill kid at 14. How does he go from being that to claiming to his parents and family that he had a vision and saw God in a single night? any actual intelligent logical ideas?
Run of the mill kid at 14, by our standard or by 1800 standards. I only ask because according to you, kids matured much faster back then since they didn't have to worry about make-up and painting their nails. If he was a typical fourteen year old in the early 1800's he must have been at a suitable age for marriage, or was that just for the girls? Just curious, typical fourteen year old by 1800 standards or today's standards?
1 post removed
pearl

Kaysville, UT

#32916 Mar 1, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
William Purple published what he called a first-hand account in 1877 in the Chenango Union.83 Purple is said to recall the event as follows from memory:- See more at: http://www.omninerd.com/articles/The_1826_Tri...
"In February 1826, the sons of Mr. Stowell, who lived with their father, were greatly incensed against Smith, as they plainly saw their father squandering his property in the fruitless search for hidden treasures, and saw that the youthful seer had unlimited control over the illusions of their sire. They made up their minds that "patience had ceased to a virtue," and resolved to rid themselves and their family from this incubus, who, as they believed, was eating up their substance, and depriving them of their anticipated patrimony. They caused the arrest of Smith as a vagrant, without visible means of livelihood.- See more at: http://www.omninerd.com/articles/The_1826_Tri...
I noticed Smith testified he was lodging at the farm while working and going to school. Seems his education was continuing. But hey, who am I to tell Mormons their prophet wasn't an uneducated idiot.
pearl

Kaysville, UT

#32917 Mar 1, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
First, it's hypocritical of a critic to hold Smith to God and miracles if a critic doesn't believe he was influenced by God and miracles and thinks Smith did everything from his own mind. Critics should be using points that don't deal with God and miracles to make their point.
Does that help?
Then it must be hypocritical for you to hold Dana to "Christian standards" when you claim he's not a christian, yes, no?
pearl

Kaysville, UT

#32918 Mar 1, 2014
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Holy moly you're back to this crap. You understood my point and what? Your bored? Don't have anything else to talk about? Yes, by our education standards.
Are you saying there's no difference between a person of 20 with MAYBE an 1824 8th grade education is totally equivalent to the education of an eight grade kid today in 2014? Is that your point? Really? You see no differences? Really? Than quit the conversation now. Go to a middle school tomorrow and sign in at the front desk. Tell the office person you want to speak to the principle or vice-principle, their usually teachers before they took those positions. Sit and ask them if they think a kid in 1825 going through 7th or 8th grade would have the same education talents as a 7th or 8th grader today in 2014. Than you come back and begin the conversation if you want okay?
No, not bored, I don't get bored. I told you, I think you're fascinating and since it's cold and windy today I had time to go read back and I fail to see where you stated BY TODAYS STANDARDS until I called you on it, and since you yelled {I know that because Mouse told me that's what all caps mean} I figured I must have missed something and I usually pride myself on paying attention. But nope not seeing where you stated such. Are you willing to point out where I missed that? But as far as standards go seems people are able to read and write well in the 1800's. Surely you are aware there are some great works of literature from that time period and folks were actually able to read and comprehend things. One of my favorites, Dickens. Ya know he wrote A CHRISTMAS CAROL in only six weeks and had very little education. Amazing what one can accomplish when they put their minds to task.

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#32919 Mar 1, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
It's none of your business.
This is a blog for debate... but it's none of my business. I am a Mormon. You are crazy dude@!

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#32920 Mar 1, 2014
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
This is a blog for debate... but it's none of my business. I am a Mormon. You are crazy dude@!
You're a nutcase, and a idiot to boot.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#32921 Mar 1, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you 5 years old? You can be a mentally ill sex perverted, thief, murderer, and con artist. But I only said at best he was mentally ill. It's nice how you just skipped the rest. But that is usual for you.
Nooooo....but that's the childish age level you write at like in this post. Smith never "murdered" anyone. That's childish 5 year old lie one. Smith was never a thief in the capacity you claim. So that's childish 5 year old lie 2. The sex pervert angle is just old and boring.
You did call Smith mentally ill. You also didn't say to what severity. So you left the door wide open for a response.
Skipped the rest? What did I miss? You stated.....

"Wis it hypocritical? The critics aren't the ones making the claims, Smith was. And the critics aren't using God to make their point. They are showing how God had nothing to do with it. That at best, it was the claims of an mentally ill person, at worst, the workings of a con man. It's the Mormon church claiming divine intervention, not the critics. The critics are calling it all BS."

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#32922 Mar 1, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Right, even though I was taught that very same thing growing up in Sunday School.
As you stated, you're full of crap. You weren't taught at church any one that's a Mormon get's their own planet. That's one of those extreme critic lies you as a critic like to make. See, that would be in the reading material they pass out. And you won't find that extreme critic lie that anyone that's a Mormon get's their own planet. You're full of crap and I'm disappointed you went back to this extreme crap you try your best to pass off as Mormon truth taught in their books.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#32923 Mar 1, 2014
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
You're full of crap, no critic has said that. It's just you making up facts from your butt again.
lol.........I'm full of crap? You're the fricking critic that wants us all to believe a 14 year old boy figured out how to scam thousands in his life before he ever did it! lol..........too fricking funny dude really......lol.

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