Evolution vs. Creation

Evolution vs. Creation

There are 199499 comments on the Best of New Orleans story from Jan 6, 2011, titled Evolution vs. Creation. In it, Best of New Orleans reports that:

High school senior Zack Kopplin is leading the fight to repeal the Louisiana Science Education Act of 2008.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Best of New Orleans.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#32798 Jul 8, 2012
And do you have any evidence that a *significant* percentage of fossils have ever been forged? Good luck with that.
Cybele wrote:
lots of fossil manufacturers in China
You still didn't answer my question.

“Seventh son”

Since: Dec 10

Will Prevail

#32799 Jul 8, 2012
Drew Smith wrote:
And do you have any evidence that a *significant* percentage of fossils have ever been forged? Good luck with that.
<quoted text>
You still didn't answer my question.
Fossil forging is a big business in china because a complete specimen is worth a great deal more than a partial.
This is why the Archaeoraptor was faked by using the two halves
of one fossil and adding bits of others to make a complete one.

http://www.paleodirect.com/fakechinesefossils...

But the truth is a honest Chinese scientist exposed the fake .

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#32800 Jul 8, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
Fossil forging is a big business in china because a complete specimen is worth a great deal more than a partial.
This is why the Archaeoraptor was faked by using the two halves
of one fossil and adding bits of others to make a complete one.
http://www.paleodirect.com/fakechinesefossils...
But the truth is a honest Chinese scientist exposed the fake .
Not to mention that it has very little to do with those fossils that have been found in the rest of the world.

“Seventh son”

Since: Dec 10

Will Prevail

#32801 Jul 8, 2012
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
Not to mention that it has very little to do with those fossils that have been found in the rest of the world.

Well historically only a relatively few fossils have been outright forged , but there have been those few. But it is becoming a problem
and a shame . The funny thing is these Chinese do have some talent
they should market fakes as fakes , mass produce them and become rich doing it. Who wouldn't pay for a fake fossil of a crockoduck as a gag?

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#32802 Jul 8, 2012
Aura Mytha wrote:
historically only a relatively few fossils have been outright forged , but there have been those few.
And that's the point. In comparison with the overwhelming number of *valid* fossils, the forged fossils cannot be shown to represent more than the tiniest percentage.

And therefore, the existence of that very tiny percentage does nothing to refute fossil evidence for evolution.

“Seventh son”

Since: Dec 10

Will Prevail

#32803 Jul 8, 2012
Drew Smith wrote:
<quoted text>
And that's the point. In comparison with the overwhelming number of *valid* fossils, the forged fossils cannot be shown to represent more than the tiniest percentage.
And therefore, the existence of that very tiny percentage does nothing to refute fossil evidence for evolution.

Agreed the evidence is overwhelming.

Here is a new interesting find, a toothed pelican.

http://tanystropheus.wordpress.com/2009/07/02...
Tony

Broken Arrow, OK

#32804 Jul 8, 2012
Romney is a believer in creation. He has created so many lies he can't keep up with them and flip-flops.
KJV

United States

#32805 Jul 8, 2012
MIDutch wrote:
<quoted text>Only amongst you bronze age, goat herder "literal and inerrant" FAIRY TALE cultists. Ask yourself, why is it ONLY you "fundamentalist christian and muslim creationists" who have a problem with the ancient universe cosmology/astronomy/physics, old Earth geology/physics and the Theory of Evolution/biology?

The VAST majority of the world's scientists and population have no doubt.
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views."

– Albert Einstein
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#32806 Jul 8, 2012
Here is a fairly clear explanation of the Chromosome 2 deal.

Not sure why Cybele is throwing up a whole lot of vague and inaccurate nonsense about it. It's really quite simple to understand.

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC050.h...

Excerpt:

There is abundant genetic evidence for the relatedness between humans and other apes:

1. Humans have twenty-three chromosome pairs; apes have twenty-four. Twenty-two of the pairs are similar between humans and apes. The remaining two ape chromosomes appear to have joined [in human beings]; they are similar to each half of the remaining human chromosome (chromosome 2; Yunis and Prakash 1982).

2. The ends of chromosomes have repetitious telomeric sequences and a distinctive pretelomeric region. Such sequences are found in the middle of human chromosome 2, just as one would expect if two chromosomes joined (IJdo et al. 1991).

3. A centromere-like region of human chromosome 2 corresponds with the centromere of the ape chromosome (Avarello et al. 1992).

4. Humans and chimpanzees have innumerable sequence similarities, including shared pseudogenes such as genetic material from ERVs (endogenous retroviruses; Taylor 2003; Max 2003).

End excerpt

========

Here is a drawing of the human and chimp chromosomes side by side:

http://www.reasons.org/Media/Default/Article/...

“what we think we become”

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#32807 Jul 8, 2012
Thomas Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Cybele, I'm afraid you got me.
I've wondered the same thing myself.
I continue to subscribe to the mailing list for the skeptic group which I attended before I came overseas.
They recently had a guest speaker who wrote a book on the subject.
The group provided links to articles which summarized that book.
I read those articles, I posted questions on the mailing list, and I still don't understand it.
If anyone else on this thread can answer Cybele's question, please do so.
Do you think the God Gene is real?

The God gene hypothesis proposes that a specific gene (VMAT2) predisposes humans towards spiritual or mystic experiences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_gene
MIDutch

Waterford, MI

#32808 Jul 8, 2012
KJV wrote:
<quoted text>
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognise, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views."
– Albert Einstein
Einstein was NOT one of you bronze age, goat herder FAIRY TALE cultists.

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein, 1954

"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously." - Albert Einstein, Letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946

To try and use Albert Einstein to support your "magic fruit and talking snakes" FAIRY TALES is pretty despicable.

“what we think we become”

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#32809 Jul 8, 2012
Gillette wrote:
Here is a fairly clear explanation of the Chromosome 2 deal.
Not sure why Cybele is throwing up a whole lot of vague and inaccurate nonsense about it. It's really quite simple to understand.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC050.h...
Excerpt:
There is abundant genetic evidence for the relatedness between humans and other apes:
1. Humans have twenty-three chromosome pairs; apes have twenty-four. Twenty-two of the pairs are similar between humans and apes. The remaining two ape chromosomes appear to have joined [in human beings]; they are similar to each half of the remaining human chromosome (chromosome 2; Yunis and Prakash 1982).
2. The ends of chromosomes have repetitious telomeric sequences and a distinctive pretelomeric region. Such sequences are found in the middle of human chromosome 2, just as one would expect if two chromosomes joined (IJdo et al. 1991).
3. A centromere-like region of human chromosome 2 corresponds with the centromere of the ape chromosome (Avarello et al. 1992).
4. Humans and chimpanzees have innumerable sequence similarities, including shared pseudogenes such as genetic material from ERVs (endogenous retroviruses; Taylor 2003; Max 2003).
End excerpt
========
Here is a drawing of the human and chimp chromosomes side by side:
http://www.reasons.org/Media/Default/Article/...
You guys don't fully understand my question.

If before we became homo-sapiens, we shared the same chromosome with chimps, then what made the chromosome 2 to fuse? Was there some kind of intervention? Why do we differ greatly from chimps? how did we diverge genetically?

Let me give you an example, a reptile do not have genetic information for wings like birds. In case for humans and chimps why do humans have genetic information that chimps do not like hair, ability to understand language, etc...

after chromosome fusion, how did we acquire genetic information for speciation?

That's all I'm asking.

“Seventh son”

Since: Dec 10

Will Prevail

#32810 Jul 8, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
You guys don't fully understand my question.
If before we became homo-sapiens, we shared the same chromosome with chimps, then what made the chromosome 2 to fuse? Was there some kind of intervention? Why do we differ greatly from chimps? how did we diverge genetically?
Let me give you an example, a reptile do not have genetic information for wings like birds. In case for humans and chimps why do humans have genetic information that chimps do not like hair, ability to understand language, etc...
after chromosome fusion, how did we acquire genetic information for speciation?
That's all I'm asking.
A copy mistake, one which fortuitous to us allowed the rise of the evolution of the human race.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#32811 Jul 8, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
don't forget the ability to think that there is a God. We can't say bible believers didn't evolve from apes if evolution is a fact. What made homo sapiens believe in stuff like God, heaven, and hell? All of a sudden they made up stuff?
Religion has always been used to explain the unknown. When people quit praying, the gods cease to exist. Belief in the old gods was every bit as real as yours. People just quit praying and sacrificing to them as they started to figure things out. Now we call them myths.

“Wear white at night.”

Since: Jun 09

Albuquerque

#32812 Jul 8, 2012
Cybele wrote:
<quoted text>
You guys don't fully understand my question.
If before we became homo-sapiens, we shared the same chromosome with chimps, then what made the chromosome 2 to fuse? Was there some kind of intervention? Why do we differ greatly from chimps? how did we diverge genetically?
Let me give you an example, a reptile do not have genetic information for wings like birds. In case for humans and chimps why do humans have genetic information that chimps do not like hair, ability to understand language, etc...
after chromosome fusion, how did we acquire genetic information for speciation?
That's all I'm asking.
All it takes is a proton out of place to get a 3'-3' transcription error and, of course, a successful enough transcription error to get fixed in the gene pool. It's not rocket science.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#32813 Jul 8, 2012
Hi Cybele

It was likely an accidental mutation.If it had not been workable or beneficial, that offshoot of the early ape-like ancestor wold likely have died off and ... no humanity.

But it worked and there was no a barrier to successful reproduction, so ... here we are!

This happened 6 million years ago, so there has been plenty of time for humans to evolve in ways different from chimps. A very important mutation was for a smaller jaw muscle, which led to having more space in the skull cavity and thus to the gradual growth of the size of the hominid brain as compare to apes and chimps.
Gillette

Fairfield, IA

#32814 Jul 8, 2012
Cybele, have you ever heard of Endogenous Retroviruses?

It's a DNA event that biologists considered slam-the-door proof of man and ape common ancestry.

I have a 1-post description of ERVs in layman's language, if you are interested. I'd be happy to post it.
KJV

United States

#32815 Jul 8, 2012
davy wrote:
<quoted text>Evolution just doesn't seem a scientific as a story about a talking snake.
Come on Davy please don't repeat other people's post try coming up with your own insults.

Since: Feb 08

Tampa, FL

#32816 Jul 8, 2012
Cybele wrote:
If before we became homo-sapiens, we shared the same chromosome with chimps, then what made the chromosome 2 to fuse?
A mutation.
Cybele wrote:
Was there some kind of intervention?
By what?
Cybele wrote:
Why do we differ greatly from chimps?
Because the genetic lines leading to modern humans and modern chimps have had millions of years to evolve.
Cybele wrote:
how did we diverge genetically?
By reproductive isolation of the populations.
Cybele wrote:
In case for humans and chimps why do humans have genetic information that chimps do not like hair, ability to understand language, etc.
Both humans and chimps have hair. The population leading to humans accumulated some mutations that led to the ability of the brain to create complex languages and to articulate them.
Cybele wrote:
after chromosome fusion, how did we acquire genetic information for speciation?
Speciation occurs when a population is split into two or more populations, and then those populations evolve to the point where they are no longer able to reproduce with each other.

“what we think we become”

Since: Aug 11

above and beyond

#32817 Jul 8, 2012
MIDutch wrote:
<quoted text>
Einstein was NOT one of you bronze age, goat herder FAIRY TALE cultists.
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings." - Albert Einstein
"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." - Albert Einstein, 1954
"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously." - Albert Einstein, Letter to Hoffman and Dukas, 1946
To try and use Albert Einstein to support your "magic fruit and talking snakes" FAIRY TALES is pretty despicable.
“Religion without science is blind and science without religion is lame”– Albert Einstein.

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