Skull Valley lawmaker wants both side...

Skull Valley lawmaker wants both sides of climate change taught to students

There are 1632 comments on the Verde Independent story from Feb 5, 2013, titled Skull Valley lawmaker wants both sides of climate change taught to students. In it, Verde Independent reports that:

Saying students are getting only one side of the debate, a state senator wants to free teachers to tell students why they believe there is no such thing human-caused "global warming.' The proposal by Sen.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Verde Independent.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#1067 May 3, 2013
Dont drink the koolaid wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, many thousands of CO2 experiments have been conducted with the same results. Replicated by independent tests world wide. More CO2 is beneficial to life on Earth.
http://scholar.google.com/scholar...
Perhaps you should have pointed Brian at those 137,000 results. He may have found them interesting but more than likely would deny that they existed.

As to beneficial, it depends on what life your are testing for. Certainly not the life that humanity has come to expect for the last few hundred years.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#1068 May 3, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
Ice doesn't disappear, it melts.
I'm looking forward to polar ice melting all summer long, then we'll have shorter routes to Europe and Asia. Think of all the great stuff buried under ice caps. What's not to love about global warming?
Melted ice is NOT ice – Melted ice is WATER. Therefore the ice is no more, it has disappeared. It may return as different ice but it is NOT the same ice therefore the original ice has disappeared.

”Ice doesn't disappear” Is this is the level of your logic?

Forget the hype. Try stretching an elastic band between say New York and Schiphol on a globe. Now please advise whether it bends north up the coast of the US and Canada, stretches east over the ice cap and then heads south to Schiphol or whether it stretches over the most direct/shortest route. True that planes heading east from the US can take advantage of the jet stream for a more efficient and possible faster flight, the same does not apply for the return journey. You should also note that because of global warming effects the jet stream has migrated south few hundred miles, hence the more extreme weather being experienced I northern Europe. Planes now have no need to divert several hundred miles north to cadge a cheap lift but this means that the increased headwind makes return journeys more difficult.

And do you think that following continued melting of the ice caps and riding sea levels (caused by magic non disappearing ice) you would be able to land a plane in the waters of Schiphol airport?

You should also note that CO2 reduces the efficiency of engines so you air fair would cost more.

What great stuff? Ice and rock? Bacteria? Deceptacons? Alien v predator castles? oh wait a moment you were once again considering facetious comment as being valid – well done…

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#1069 May 3, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
Science uses experiments to test and refine theories. There's never been an experiment that shows a man made change in climate or climate change mitigation. Dan might be right, those promoting prototype climate change mitigation without any experimental evidence for their policies, might be acting out of good intentions; let's look at their policy.
They want to tax and restrict fossil fuel use. This forces up fuel and energy prices, harming the poor. And we haven't seen any evidence it will help the climate either.
When a falling brick lands on your head you don’t need experiment to know that it came form above.

Measurements show that as humanity increased the use of fossil fuels CO2 levels have increased correspondingly over and above the normal fluctuation. There is now no argument with these measurements, they are taken globally by diverse methods and by different organisations with different agendas, all agree on the conclusion. Experiments confirm those measurements, there is no argument with these experiments except from those with a vested interest and often profiting from CO2 in one way or another.

Fossil fuel is taxed, depending on the country/state depends on how much tax is levied. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_taxes_in_th...

So what you are objecting to is the cost rather than the facts?

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#1070 May 3, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
...
What's not to love about global warming?
Brian_G
I love CO2
Well there is you…
Dont drink the koolaid

Eden Prairie, MN

#1071 May 3, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
As to beneficial, it depends on what life your are testing for. Certainly not the life that humanity has come to expect for the last few hundred years.
"Certainty" is in abundance among the believers of CAGW.
CO2 is vital to life on Earth... that is certain.
Dont drink the koolaid

Eden Prairie, MN

#1072 May 3, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Perhaps you should have pointed Brian at those 137,000 results...
Perhaps I did.
litesong

Everett, WA

#1073 May 3, 2013
drink the kkk-aid wrote:
CO2 is vital to life on Earth...
Has any AGW advocate stated that CO2 should go to 0ppm, so that life becomes impossible on Earth? Of course not.
Has any AGW advocate stated that CO2 should go back to pre-industrial levels? No.
Has any AGW advocate stated that increasing CO2 should be limited to avoid drastic & other unforeseen climate shocks? Yes.

Indeed,'drink the kkk-aid' is very much like the kkk, who look for reasons to sate their blood-lust.
'drink the kkk-aid' is making up reasons against AGW advocates that will validate its desire to kill.

“When you treat people as they ”

Since: Nov 10

treat you they get offended.

#1074 May 3, 2013
Dont drink the koolaid wrote:
<quoted text>
"Certainty" is in abundance among the believers of CAGW.
CO2 is vital to life on Earth... that is certain.
CO2 in is required for plants but is an asphyxiant to oxygen breathing life.

It’s a balancing act that over the millennia the earth has managed well enough until the last 150 years and interference from mankind.
litesong

Everett, WA

#1075 May 3, 2013
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
Has any AGW advocate stated that CO2 should go to 0ppm, so that life becomes impossible on Earth? Of course not.
Has any AGW advocate stated that CO2 should go back to pre-industrial levels? No.
Has any AGW advocate stated that increasing CO2 should be limited to avoid drastic & other unforeseen climate shocks? Yes.
Indeed,'drink the kkk-aid' is very much like the kkk, who look for reasons to sate their blood-lust.
'drink the kkk-aid' is making up reasons against AGW advocates that will validate its desire to kill.
Lest anyone believe that my last sentence in the above post condemns too strongly, read the following words of extremist toxic topix AGW denier bob burns, which I have posted many dozens of times. In a court of law, I would testify that bob burns did post such.

Two toxic topix AGW deniers, themselves, of terrible reput, did condemn the words of bob burns. However,'drink the kkk-aid' never condemned bob burns & his words & was mute on the subject of bob burns threats:
//////////

litesout wrote:
Here are evidences & words of bob burns who is an alleged criminal & reasons he is an alleged criminal.
bob burns' HELLGATE...
bob burns' quote from hard copy, first post:
You are one despicable piece of shit. I hope you & your lawyer get gunned down. I'll do it myself if I get a chance.
=====
Second post:
I'm coming after your 'wife' too. I'll rape and torture 'her' in front of you. Same with your lawyer. What I do with you will be right out of a Saw movie. I'll film it & put it on the 'net'.
=====
bob burns' replying post:
Burn baby, burn

Since: Nov 12

Elk Grove, CA

#1076 May 3, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
And? All the more reason to consider the consensus is valid.
So you are saying that NASA is falsifying data? Data confirmed and repeated by climatologists from Japan, Sweden, The UK, Russia, Australia
Or are you one that does not believe the claims of science when they interfere with vested interest and commercial profits?
NASA has been caught falsifying data. They have been doing it for years, did you just find out? Climate-gate part I occurred in early December when a still-unknown person posted thousands of e-mails and documents on a scientific website. The e-mails showed that scientists at the leading "global warming" research institute in the world, East Anglia University's Climate Research Unit (CRU) had "changed" weather data to prove their climate-warming theories, and squelched dissenting opinions from skeptical scientists to maintain credibility for their fraud.

Climate-gate part II begins now: The scientists with Icecap.us website announced findings late last week that not only was the CRU involved in producing fraudulent weather data, but two United States agencies, National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), have also been falsifying climate reports for years. NOAA, the report concludes, is actually "ground-zero" for the fraud of global warming, not the East Anglia Institute.
litesong

Everett, WA

#1077 May 3, 2013
drink the kkk-aid wrote:
Too funny that both sides of the debate will use this argument while claiming the other is UNscientific :-)
AGW advocates have much more education percentage-wise than toxic topix AGW deniers. Furthermore, AGW advocates have an even higher percentage-wise education in science & mathematics than toxic topix AGW deniers.

Six toxic topix AGW deniers do not have hi skule DEE-plooomaas.

97% of climatologists(maybe more, now that Muller is away from the darkside) have research confirming AGW.

"drink the kkk-aid" has a morality, supporting bob burns.

litesong

Everett, WA

#1078 May 3, 2013
recked car fire wrote:
NASA has been caught falsifying data.
Correction:
NASA has research papers confirming AGW, that falsifying toxic topix AGW deniers don't like.

“Headline already in use”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#1079 May 3, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
How much atmosphere? Unless performed in vacuum the test are performed in atmosphere
The atmosphere; there are no atmospheric test of climate change mitigation.

.
ChristineM wrote:
Opinion, and the thing about opinions is that they are like a$$holes, everyone has one. You have been given links to thousands of such tests and totally ignored them. I am done dealing with ignorance.
Please cite the most compelling experiment for climate change mitigation you'v found. I'll wait...

.
ChristineM wrote:
I am surprised that you seem to be claiming that NASA is falsifying data.
NASA interprets data to further their goals. Do you find that surprising?
litesong

Everett, WA

#1080 May 3, 2013
recked car fire wrote:
NASA has been caught falsifying data.
toxic topix AGW deniers can't catch a cube in a square root.

“Headline already in use”

Since: Dec 08

Home, sweet home.

#1081 May 3, 2013
ChristineM wrote:
Melted ice is NOT ice – Melted ice is WATER. Therefore the ice is no more, it has disappeared. It may return as different ice but it is NOT the same ice therefore the original ice has disappeared.”Ice doesn't disappear” Is this is the level of your logic?
Ice melts, it doesn't disappear.

.
ChristineM wrote:
Forget the hype. Try stretching an elastic band between say New York and Schiphol on a globe. Now please advise whether it bends north up the coast of the US and Canada, stretches east over the ice cap and then heads south to Schiphol or whether it stretches over the most direct/shortest route. True that planes heading east from the US can take advantage of the jet stream for a more efficient and possible faster flight, the same does not apply for the return journey. You should also note that because of global warming effects the jet stream has migrated south few hundred miles, hence the more extreme weather being experienced I northern Europe. Planes now have no need to divert several hundred miles north to cadge a cheap lift but this means that the increased headwind makes return journeys more difficult.
We'll adapt to climate change, we always have. There's never been an experimental test of climate change mitigation published in a peer reviewed journal..

.
ChristineM wrote:
And do you think that following continued melting of the ice caps and riding sea levels (caused by magic non disappearing ice) you would be able to land a plane in the waters of Schiphol airport?
You should also note that CO2 reduces the efficiency of engines so you air fair would cost more.
Schiphol means ship grave in English, the area used to be underwater.

.
ChristineM wrote:
What great stuff? Ice and rock? Bacteria? Deceptacons? Alien v predator castles? oh wait a moment you were once again considering facetious comment as being valid – well done…
There's valuable mineral resources under the melting ice. What's not to love about global warming?

Since: Nov 12

Elk Grove, CA

#1082 May 3, 2013
litesong wrote:
<quoted text>
Correction:
NASA has research papers confirming AGW, that falsifying toxic topix AGW deniers don't like.
Mr Doom and Gloom the sky is falling song: NASA was caught! Follow the money, not Gore's, but the Government. Who funds NASA? If I had the money I could hire any so called expert to make sure a study comes out in my favor, politicians do it all the time, just like the unemployment and other rates that are manipulated. And I just wanted you to know today I went out, I approve of it. But I do predict it will get cloudy and there will be some wind and lot of Sun, then in a few months it will be time to push the warming agenda.

“Help religion science wander”

Since: Jan 11

into the night.

#1083 May 3, 2013
Brian_G wrote:
<quoted text>The atmosphere; there are no atmospheric test of climate change mitigation.
.
<quoted text>Please cite the most compelling experiment for climate change mitigation you'v found. I'll wait...
.
<quoted text>NASA interprets data to further their goals. Do you find that surprising?
You keep referring to climate change mitigation. I am trying to get a clear understanding of what you mean. Is it that you are talking about man-engineered, intential attempts to alter the climate on any scale (local, regional, global)?

If this is what you are talking about, how does this relate to causese? There has never been any successful experiment to mitigate gravity, but that doesn't negate the existence or cause of gravity.

“Help religion science wander”

Since: Jan 11

into the night.

#1084 May 3, 2013
Dont drink the koolaid wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, a warming trend and it's impact on the environment.
Much of the raw data that is used to suggest the Earth has been warming is classified as 'proprietary' which means there is not a single scientific academy that can verify the conclusions of Professor Phil Jones, Director of the Climate Research Unit (CRU) at the University of East Anglia in Norwich England by the Thames.
As for the "models"; a good place to start in understanding their relevance is to read the remarks associated with the computer code in 'THE HARRY README' files that can be found in: FOI2009.ZIP.
It quickly becomes clear that the data is not recoverable... As has been confirmed by Dr. jones.
The available data is not limited to a single source. There a numerous papers regarding the change in phenology of plants and animals. These changes are associated with increasing warmth. There are also proxy indicators of climate that are well established indicators of local, regional and global temperature change and these corroborate the general trend. While contributions to the cause of this warming may remain arguable, that it is occurring seems to be a fact and continued warming will have an impact on human life and all life on this planet to some degree.

Facing facts though, we (the developed world) are here at this point. We demand and need energy and the products created with that energy and others are catching up with us while the population continues to grow. Personally, I think increasing investments of both financial and scientific resources into alternative energy sources and storage is never going to be a bad idea. There are huge benefits for all stakeholders. I know this is assuming an anthropogenic origin of temperature increase, but it is an answer that is akin to no contest without assigning guilt. If it isn't anthropogenic, we still benefit. If it is we benefit. I like this idea better than a complicated regulatory strategy that may not be sustainable in the long term and could very well have far reaching negative impact outside its intended target.

In the 1950's and 1960's some scientists were beginning to come to the conclusion that we would not be able to produce enough food to support our growing populations. They were scoffed at at the time and their predictions did not come true. Were they wrong. Based on the conditions at the time they were not wrong. But scientist like Norman Borlaug came up with technical solutions to the problem and stopped it before it became a problem. Perhaps it is naive or overly enthusiastic, but regardless of this being natural or manmade, we have the capability to develop technical solutions to big problems. This will be just another example.
litesong

Mountlake Terrace, WA

#1085 May 3, 2013
[QUOTE who="lyin' brian"]NASA interprets data to further their goals.[/QUOTE]

'lyin' brian' interprets data to further its lies.'lyin' brian' has no science, chemistry, astronomy, physics, algebra or pre-calc in its poorly earned hi skule DEE-plooomaa.'lyin' brian' has errors of 1 million TIMES, 1000 TIMES, 3000 TIMES, 73 million TIMES, & 2.5+ trillion TIMES.
litesong

Mountlake Terrace, WA

#1086 May 3, 2013
recked car fire wrote:
NASA was caught!
'recked car fire' was caught in its recked car fire.

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