Archbishop: Gay marriage violates "design of nature"

May 9, 2013 Full story: Seattle Post-Intelligencer 93

The chairman of U.S. Catholic bishops' Subcommittee for the Promotion and Defense of Marriage has denounced legalization of same-sex marriage in Rhode Island as violating "the very design of nature." The Rhode Island Legislature voted for marriage equality last week, making the Ocean State the 10th state to legalize same-sex marriage.

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Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#41 May 10, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for proving me out on my prior post RE: condescension.
"If I place myself on any ground at all, it is the ground of the Teachings of Christ Jesus."
I knew you would. You can't help yourself.
LOL!!!!... You call that condescenion??????

You are invited to join me, Dan. I don't hold you to be in any way above OR below me. You are a human being, jus as I am, and all of us have some shortcomings.

Because I openly profess my desire and commitment to take my cues from the Teachings of Christ Jesus, you find my remarks condescending????? The commitment is simply to learn from Him.

That is what acceptance of ordination into the priesthood of Christ Jesus is all about. If you think such acceptance is an invitation to demonstration of condescension, you've got a disagreement with Jesus or a misconception of what the priesthood requires.

Any time, Dan. Any time.

Rev. Ken
Dan

Omaha, NE

#42 May 10, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL!!!!... You call that condescenion??????
You are invited to join me, Dan. I don't hold you to be in any way above OR below me. You are a human being, jus as I am, and all of us have some shortcomings.
Because I openly profess my desire and commitment to take my cues from the Teachings of Christ Jesus, you find my remarks condescending????? The commitment is simply to learn from Him.
That is what acceptance of ordination into the priesthood of Christ Jesus is all about. If you think such acceptance is an invitation to demonstration of condescension, you've got a disagreement with Jesus or a misconception of what the priesthood requires.
Any time, Dan. Any time.
Rev. Ken
You place yourself as arbiter of what the teachings of Christ are in this matter to the point that you term your fellow believers to be in error, or to lack character.

Now, you revert to the "take it up with God" argument as a response to my having dared level the charge.

Must be nice in that rarefied air up there, Ken.

I think my best advice to you on this now would be what I'd give to anyone in a hole-stop digging.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#43 May 10, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Clever, yet untrue.
I understand that an endorsement from the Church is what is wanted and anything less will be viewed in the type of terms you relate here.
As it's not forthcoming, is it then acceptable for you and others to marginalize/demonize them for their beliefs? How quickly things change. Not long ago, the homosexual community bemoaned the lack of tolerance shown them by greater society and plead for understanding. Now that they are no longer aggrieved thusly, they engage in the very intolerance that they accused others of.
NONE of us, except for their poor gay kids who're SO programmed to need daddy's approval want the RCC's "endorsement" !!! NONE of the rest of us give a crap for their "endorsement".

What a completely absurd thought.

We want them out of CIVIL laws.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#44 May 10, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Ken-
The sacraments are part and parcel of the doctrine. If the doctrine is "misguided", then the sacraments are of no real effect.
It's no wonderment to me or anyone else that there are homosexual Catholics.
This condescension on your part is the intolerance I was speaking of to another poster here. "hypocrites", "bigots".
You can't help yourself. Now that there's a social bully pulpit for gay rights, it's "game on, forget what I was griping about with that intolerance stuff before-now I get to do it to someone".
Don't know about the "ex opere operato" dogma, do ya?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#45 May 10, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think so, Dan.
The Church catholic has long held that the validity of the sacraments is not dependent upon the religious righteousness of the sacerdotally designated individual. Doctrine says that the conferments of the Holy Spirit are related to the grace given through the office, itself.
Because such doctrine is self-congratulatory, I might disagree with this. If this were true, all priests of Christ Jesus would be able to discern and deliver the fruits of the Spirit just as evidently as He was able to do.
No. It has something more to do with a familiarity with and love for the Spirit, coupled with the sincerety of the faith of the individual. That is why the quote that, "Whenever two or three are gathered together in My name, there I will be, also..." has such significance.
Moreover, the religious institution-based hypocrites and "orthodox" bigots are an historical legacy of the hierarchy and the followers-membership of the Church.
It is not good for anyone or for the Church hierarchy to deny this legacy. Such denial is what has propagated these horrendous behaviors into this very day, in the first place.
It is NOT condescension. It is an acknowledgment of the reality of misguided practices and self-defensive, self-congratulatory, selfishly propagating power-minded doctrines.
"Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely."
- Lord Acton
"It is not only the slave or serf who is ameliorated in becoming free... the master himself did not gain less in every point of view,... for absolute power corrupts the best natures."
- Prat de Lamartine (meaning that both the slave and the master benefit from the master's relinquishment of control in the recognition of an unlimited personal dignity and right of self-determination)
The claim that someone now, having taken an inch, is intent on taking an unjustified MILE, is the true condescension - as if the yielding of an inch was a magnanimous act. It wasn't.
It has been a minor pittance aimed at pacifying, in order to preserve the pittance-giver's coveted position of being the "benificent" gift-giver.
As truth and realization arrive at the individual level, the selfishly retained power of the institution necessarily, though reluctantly, must yield and then wane.
Acts 2:17
Rev. Ken
THAT was one of your best.
kuda

Cincinnati, OH

#46 May 11, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
You haven't been paying attention.
Kuda thinks Sharpton's comparable to Jesus Christ.
Well Dan and Fa-Foxy (WOOF), I like to believe I bring out the best in people ó and while, of course, I canít rule out that possibility with the two of you, you have held me responsible to defend Rev. Sharpton for any oh his transgressions, real or perceived, while focusing your attention on his qualifications and character rather than on my original message. To summarize, I believe that the Roman Churchís position on gay marriage is of little consequence since it has become irrelevant in the 21st century despite its independent statehood and incredible wealth ó and unlike Al Sharpton, it has failed to evolve or change its views on gay marriage. or gay relationships in general.

Formally speaking, you canít win an argument by changing the subject or by chit-chatting condescendingly about your perception of your adversary or his position without directly engaging him.

By the way, whoís to judge one religionís theology more valid than those of other churches? And ďBig AlĒ?ó really?ó have some class. Itís decent to show some respect even when you disagree. Why be snarky, unless of course youíre both perfect and thus have the right to be?

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#47 May 11, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
You place yourself as arbiter of what the teachings of Christ are in this matter to the point that you term your fellow believers to be in error, or to lack character.
Now, you revert to the "take it up with God" argument as a response to my having dared level the charge.
Must be nice in that rarefied air up there, Ken.
I think my best advice to you on this now would be what I'd give to anyone in a hole-stop digging.
Oh, Baloney!

But, if you actually believe that institutionalized segregational bigotry and hypocrisy do not exist and have not prevailed and are not vigorously defended by the so-called "orthodox," you are simply one of THEM!

LOL!!.... and as regards THEM, The Lord Jesus was the first and best in torching their alleycat high butts. Funny thing. THEY thought He was condescending towards them and they crucified Him for it.

So, here ya' go, buddy. Get your bible out and start reading it, instead of wasting time trying to smear cake icing on beloved doggie doodoo in order to defend the Doctrinal pile.

When Light comes, everybody gets to see what's happening.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#48 May 11, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, Baloney!
But, if you actually believe that institutionalized segregational bigotry and hypocrisy do not exist and have not prevailed and are not vigorously defended by the so-called "orthodox," you are simply one of THEM!
LOL!!.... and as regards THEM, The Lord Jesus was the first and best in torching their alleycat high butts. Funny thing. THEY thought He was condescending towards them and they crucified Him for it.
So, here ya' go, buddy. Get your bible out and start reading it, instead of wasting time trying to smear cake icing on beloved doggie doodoo in order to defend the Doctrinal pile.
When Light comes, everybody gets to see what's happening.
Now, you compare yourself to Christ in defense of my charge of condescension.

This gets better every time.

Since: Mar 07

Hanover, VA

#49 May 11, 2013
Interesting title.

There are people out there who believe that legal marriage occurs in nature (outside of the human experience)?

I would love to see some proof of that.

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#50 May 11, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Now, you compare yourself to Christ in defense of my charge of condescension.
This gets better every time.
Of course I do, Dummy!

Do you think he was lying? Or was He actually serious about teaching his disciples? Is Jesus somehow not real to you?

You continue to try to separate yourself from those who admit to being disciples of Christ Jesus. Is this because you insist on defining yourself as one of his disciples and are intent on defining others as not disciples, despite their claim to Him [and His claim to them]? Or is this because you admit to their discipleship and regard yourself to be a non-disciple?

I will tell you this, Dan. How you choose to regard me does not, can not, will not, define how Jesus Christ and I regard each other.

Neither will how I regard you define how you and Jesus regard each other.

But, this much is true - this being what He said -
"Whenever two or three are gathered together in My name,..."

Not whenever one, whether you or I, are gathered together with Him; but, when two others are gathered together - not including Him - does their friendship become a matter of establishing communion with HIM when THEY invoke His Name. In His Teaching, the triangle of discipleship, establishing an acknowledgment of a common Sonship [that being human beings of ALL varieties, male, female and other] with the Father-Mother God, carries spiritual weight, mass and kinetic energy.

The implication is that it is important for YOU and I to recognize the common Teacher to whom we both have become allegiant and then to keep that commonality present in order to allow the Holy Spirit to guide certain elements of our conversation.

At this point, instead of hearing that reiteration of acknowledgment from you, I find you to be insisting upon what you regard to be "condescension" that becomes "better every time." You are deliberately putting distance and disagreement at the fore.

Good luck with that, buddy.

Rev. Ken
Bucky Beaver

Justice, IL

#51 May 11, 2013
Quest wrote:
Interesting title.
There are people out there who believe that legal marriage occurs in nature (outside of the human experience)?
I would love to see some proof of that.
"Natural" is the adjective; the noun is "Law."

Natural Law stretches back to Cicero and beyond, forward through Aquinas, Shakespeare and Dante, Blackstone and into American law where it reigned until Erie v. PA.

Law and marriage have to do with humans. Natural Law is still part of the legal philosophy of 1-5 out of the 9 Supreme Court Justices, but those are supposed to be the best of the best (plus Clarence).

I'm not up on the great apes being able to communicate and hope you aren't offended that this is a human-only topic.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#52 May 11, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course I do, Dummy!
Do you think he was lying? Or was He actually serious about teaching his disciples? Is Jesus somehow not real to you?
You continue to try to separate yourself from those who admit to being disciples of Christ Jesus. Is this because you insist on defining yourself as one of his disciples and are intent on defining others as not disciples, despite their claim to Him [and His claim to them]? Or is this because you admit to their discipleship and regard yourself to be a non-disciple?
I will tell you this, Dan. How you choose to regard me does not, can not, will not, define how Jesus Christ and I regard each other.
Neither will how I regard you define how you and Jesus regard each other.
But, this much is true - this being what He said -
"Whenever two or three are gathered together in My name,..."
Not whenever one, whether you or I, are gathered together with Him; but, when two others are gathered together - not including Him - does their friendship become a matter of establishing communion with HIM when THEY invoke His Name. In His Teaching, the triangle of discipleship, establishing an acknowledgment of a common Sonship [that being human beings of ALL varieties, male, female and other] with the Father-Mother God, carries spiritual weight, mass and kinetic energy.
The implication is that it is important for YOU and I to recognize the common Teacher to whom we both have become allegiant and then to keep that commonality present in order to allow the Holy Spirit to guide certain elements of our conversation.
At this point, instead of hearing that reiteration of acknowledgment from you, I find you to be insisting upon what you regard to be "condescension" that becomes "better every time." You are deliberately putting distance and disagreement at the fore.
Good luck with that, buddy.
Rev. Ken
I must have struck a nerve.

This is the only post seen from you on this that even hints at the possibility of any commonality between you and Christians who don't hold to your application of scripture.

Maybe future posts of yours won't be replete with your judgment of those whom you, now at this late stage, declare a commonality with.
Concerned Expat

UK

#53 May 12, 2013
Gay marriage has as much credibility as gay conception.

Actually it also has as much credibility as immaculate conception.
kuda

Cincinnati, OH

#54 May 12, 2013
Concerned Expat wrote:
Gay marriage has as much credibility as gay conception.
Actually it also has as much credibility as immaculate conception.
You seem to be confusing credibility with possibility. While two people of the same gender canít possibly conceive a child, they certainly can and some actually marry, at least in some of the more progressive of these United States, the point being that anything factual is credible to those who donít live in a state of denial. Immaculate conception, on the other hand, is a religious construct and the meaning of immaculate is open to a variety of definitions. Be that as it may, immaculate sex is probably not all that popular with most folks, gay, straight to ďother."

Since: Aug 09

Location hidden

#55 May 12, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
I must have struck a nerve.
This is the only post seen from you on this that even hints at the possibility of any commonality between you and Christians who don't hold to your application of scripture.
Maybe future posts of yours won't be replete with your judgment of those whom you, now at this late stage, declare a commonality with.
Late stage?

Oh, THAT's rich! More condescending pittance-giving on your part.

There are now going on 6 Billion people on this planet, represented in about 135 sovereign nations.

Our nation of 325 million is barely a 20th of the total. Within our nation a minority of less than 5% fights for social rights that they do NOT presently have, because of the institutional cultural bias against "other-than-heterosexual " orientation.

They are looked down upon, rejected from social events, ostracized from religious righteousness, held back in school, rejected by their own families, regarded as perverted freaks, set up to be ridiculed, denied access to organizations, held in disgust, assured of an eternity in Hell, set upon to submit to denial of their very identities, recommended for psychiatric therapy, told to go commit suicide, blamed for the spread of viral scourges, denied personal and private access and legal representation in times of crisis ...

You name it, they are subjected to it and blamed for it.

And all of this in the most egalitarian legally wrought society on the face of the planet.

The Roman Catholic Church itself now has a policy that openly states that NO homosexuals are to exist or be admitted into the ranks of their governing society, which society is held to be the highest, most righteous, most educated and spiritually gifted hierarchy in ALL of religion worldwide. Roman Catholicism claims 1.3 Billion members.

No. You haven't admitted anything and you are nowhere close to understanding.

As for Christian commonality, you make me laugh. I have always, ALWAYS, both claimed this commonality personally, for myself and for every individual who claims this same commonality, including every single Roman Catholic and every single Baptist and every single Mormon and every single Jehovah's Witness and every single 7th Day Adventist and every single snake-handling Anglican, whether Episcopalian or any other, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

In fact, I even claim commonality with YOU, one of the most backward, bigoted, hypocritical, spirit-denying falsely Christian, near atheist Roman Catholic dogma-eating jerks with whom I have ever been given the enormous God-given responsibility of carrying on a semi-intelligent conversation.

Why do I even bother with engaging in such a near useless exercise with you? Because THAT IS the nature of learning about and loving your and my fellow human beings in the context of the Teachings of Christ Jesus. THAT IS the Gospel.

Think about it.

If Jesus really was/IS the Son of the Most High God, seated at the Right Hand of God and coming to judge the living and the dead, having Risen in spiritual Ascension to the Heights of Perfection and Power within the ethereal and infinitely intangible realm of God, why on earth would He or does He bother with

fairly stupid, generally ignorant, misguided, religious lemmings full of dogshit dogma, imperfect and hugely hypocritical jerks like YOU and ME. And make no mistake about it; that is what we are. Both of us.

I'll tell you why. It is because, whether we acknowledge it or not, every one of us has the potential to grow in the Spirit and to realize our shortcomings and to overcome our hypocritical and bigoted, fearful, dishonesties and to set our foot upon the paths of Righteousness for His Name's sake.

Every one of us.

Now you go ahead and make a "condescending betterment" out of that if you like.

But, I, for one, am going to keep on preaching and teaching the Teachings of Christ Jesus. My friends know who I am.

Rev. Ken

“Plays well with others.”

Since: Jun 07

LIVING WELL*THE BEST REVENGE

#56 May 12, 2013
WEAR RED next Sunday!
kuda

Cincinnati, OH

#57 May 12, 2013
Selecia Jones- JAX FL wrote:
WEAR RED next Sunday!
I would never wear my red underwear to Sunday mass.
Dan

Omaha, NE

#58 May 13, 2013
Selecia Jones- JAX FL wrote:
WEAR RED next Sunday!
?

What's that again?

Why wear red?

“Plays well with others.”

Since: Jun 07

LIVING WELL*THE BEST REVENGE

#59 May 13, 2013
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
?
What's that again?
Why wear red?
Dan, wear RED next Sunday as a reminder of the flames.

http://www.stpaulskingsville.org/pentecost.ht...
Dan

Omaha, NE

#60 May 13, 2013
RevKen wrote:
<quoted text>
Late stage?
Oh, THAT's rich! More condescending pittance-giving on your part.
There are now going on 6 Billion people on this planet, represented in about 135 sovereign nations.
Our nation of 325 million is barely a 20th of the total. Within our nation a minority of less than 5% fights for social rights that they do NOT presently have, because of the institutional cultural bias against "other-than-heterosexual " orientation.
They are looked down upon, rejected from social events, ostracized from religious righteousness, held back in school, rejected by their own families, regarded as perverted freaks, set up to be ridiculed, denied access to organizations, held in disgust, assured of an eternity in Hell, set upon to submit to denial of their very identities, recommended for psychiatric therapy, told to go commit suicide, blamed for the spread of viral scourges, denied personal and private access and legal representation in times of crisis ...
You name it, they are subjected to it and blamed for it.
And all of this in the most egalitarian legally wrought society on the face of the planet.
The Roman Catholic Church itself now has a policy that openly states that NO homosexuals are to exist or be admitted into the ranks of their governing society, which society is held to be the highest, most righteous, most educated and spiritually gifted hierarchy in ALL of religion worldwide. Roman Catholicism claims 1.3 Billion members.
No. You haven't admitted anything and you are nowhere close to understanding.
As for Christian commonality, you make me laugh. I have always, ALWAYS, both claimed this commonality personally, for myself and for every individual who claims this same commonality, including every single Roman Catholic and every single Baptist and every single Mormon and every single Jehovah's Witness and every single 7th Day Adventist and every single snake-handling Anglican, whether Episcopalian or any other, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
In fact, I even claim commonality with YOU, one of the most backward, bigoted, hypocritical, spirit-denying falsely Christian, near atheist Roman Catholic dogma-eating jerks with whom I have ever been given the enormous God-given responsibility of carrying on a semi-intelligent conversation.
Why do I even bother with engaging in such a near useless exercise with you? Because THAT IS the nature of learning about and loving your and my fellow human beings in the context of the Teachings of Christ Jesus. THAT IS the Gospel.
Think about it.
If Jesus really was/IS the Son of the Most High God, seated at the Right Hand of God and coming to judge the living and the dead, having Risen in spiritual Ascension to the Heights of Perfection and Power within the ethereal and infinitely intangible realm of God, why on earth would He or does He bother with
fairly stupid, generally ignorant, misguided, religious lemmings full of dogshit dogma, imperfect and hugely hypocritical jerks like YOU and ME. And make no mistake about it; that is what we are. Both of us.
I'll tell you why. It is because, whether we acknowledge it or not, every one of us has the potential to grow in the Spirit and to realize our shortcomings and to overcome our hypocritical and bigoted, fearful, dishonesties and to set our foot upon the paths of Righteousness for His Name's sake.
Every one of us.
Now you go ahead and make a "condescending betterment" out of that if you like.
But, I, for one, am going to keep on preaching and teaching the Teachings of Christ Jesus. My friends know who I am.
Rev. Ken
That almost sounded like a shred of humility. Appreciate your appraisal of me. I didn't even have to ask for it.

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