Red Blue America: A right to armed re...

Red Blue America: A right to armed rebellion?

There are 134 comments on the LA Daily News story from Jan 6, 2013, titled Red Blue America: A right to armed rebellion?. In it, LA Daily News reports that:

The renewed debate over gun rights that has followed the massacre of elementary schoolchildren in Newtown has included scrutiny over why gun advocates believe they need a right to bear arms.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at LA Daily News.

CrimeaRiver

South Ockendon, UK

#64 Jan 10, 2013
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
If your gun laws and registration has been a "success", why has your gun crime doubled since the ban was put in place, and your violent crime rate has gone up fourfold? Your bobbies never used to carry sidearms, but in some areas now they do because the violence is so bad.
the ban came into force in 1996 after a man walked into a primary school in Dunblane, Scotland and shot up a bunch of kids. So from 1996 to now, the rate of gun murders has doubled from 15 to less than 40. Those are still great stats considering. 40 gun deaths in a population of 60million. Obviously we have murder by other means but our murder rates are pretty good too (excuse the ontradiction in terms).

Look - this isn't a debate on who has better gun control. I've already stated very openly, and repeatedly that what works in the UK might not work in the US.

Poverty is the underlyng factor behind our crime rates (as i assume it is for yours). Housing estates where children aren't encouraged to study, work or do anything worthwile are a breeding ground for what Merton termed 'anomie', the process by which the underclass will invert cultural values. So study and hard work are shunned while drug dealing, burglary and fraud are seen as an acceptable means to success.

Hip-Hop is a perfect example of anomie. The disenfranchised youth of America inverted cultural values and got rich rapping about it.

Its the American dream with a twist.

Perhaps its the tone of my posts, I don't know but i'm not suggesting the USA should follow the UK model. For one simple reason, you are legally encouraged by the constitution to bear arms. We never have been and never will be.

Call it draconian if you wish, but it works in the UK.
CrimeaRiver

South Ockendon, UK

#65 Jan 10, 2013
Squach wrote:
<quoted text>Please forgive the semi-double post. When I hit the "post comment" button for the comment you are responding to my computer took a bit of a crap. I had to reboot and start over. When I looked at the thread my comment hadn't showed up so I started another trying to recall my points. When I posted that comment, lo and behold, my original comment was there. So my comment that immediatey precedes this one is bacically redundant. Geeze! I just reread this and hope it makes sense to you! LOL!
No worries - sometimes i hit the button twice and post the same comment again.

Regarding the ease at which you could obtain a firearm in the UK, you probably could, you would have to deal with some very shady underworld types. And depending on how far up the chain you obtain a weapon, you would probably be fleeced and charged a great deal more than the cost.

Guns work like drugs here, it goes from dealer to dealer with each adding margin. In 1999, i was offered a freshly boxed .22 handgun (I have no idea what type it was) for 600 ($1100 at '99 exchange rates). That is failry cheap and suggests it had probably been used. I steered clear.

And NO - I wasn't a saint in my youth. Who is? I've grown up since and can see how much more dangerous our cities would be if guns were freely available.

I am concerned that the proliferation of Guns on UK is on the rise. But far from suggest that all citizens should have guns to protect themselves, I would prefer that the police stamp down hard on gun possession and keep them off the streets.

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#66 Jan 10, 2013
CrimeaRiver wrote:
<quoted text>
the ban came into force in 1996 after a man walked into a primary school in Dunblane, Scotland and shot up a bunch of kids. So from 1996 to now, the rate of gun murders has doubled from 15 to less than 40. Those are still great stats considering. 40 gun deaths in a population of 60million. Obviously we have murder by other means but our murder rates are pretty good too (excuse the ontradiction in terms).
Look - this isn't a debate on who has better gun control. I've already stated very openly, and repeatedly that what works in the UK might not work in the US.
Poverty is the underlyng factor behind our crime rates (as i assume it is for yours). Housing estates where children aren't encouraged to study, work or do anything worthwile are a breeding ground for what Merton termed 'anomie', the process by which the underclass will invert cultural values. So study and hard work are shunned while drug dealing, burglary and fraud are seen as an acceptable means to success.
Hip-Hop is a perfect example of anomie. The disenfranchised youth of America inverted cultural values and got rich rapping about it.
Its the American dream with a twist.
Perhaps its the tone of my posts, I don't know but i'm not suggesting the USA should follow the UK model. For one simple reason, you are legally encouraged by the constitution to bear arms. We never have been and never will be.
Call it draconian if you wish, but it works in the UK.
A fourfold rise in violent crime and the police now carrying sidearm where before they didn't need to is "working"???

Interesting.

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#67 Jan 10, 2013
CrimeaRiver wrote:
<quoted text>
No worries - sometimes i hit the button twice and post the same comment again.
Regarding the ease at which you could obtain a firearm in the UK, you probably could, you would have to deal with some very shady underworld types. And depending on how far up the chain you obtain a weapon, you would probably be fleeced and charged a great deal more than the cost.
Guns work like drugs here, it goes from dealer to dealer with each adding margin. In 1999, i was offered a freshly boxed .22 handgun (I have no idea what type it was) for 600 ($1100 at '99 exchange rates). That is failry cheap and suggests it had probably been used. I steered clear.
And NO - I wasn't a saint in my youth. Who is? I've grown up since and can see how much more dangerous our cities would be if guns were freely available.
I am concerned that the proliferation of Guns on UK is on the rise. But far from suggest that all citizens should have guns to protect themselves, I would prefer that the police stamp down hard on gun possession and keep them off the streets.
So you would prefer living in a police state instead of being able to protect you and yours with an effective weapon???

Also interesting.
sickofit

Owatonna, MN

#68 Jan 10, 2013
Half the people I have heard post theyw ant to rise up and take guns and go fight want to march on mansions and places of business of the rich and take back there nation....the other half want to march into poor neighborhoods and workingclass neighborhodos and kill off the LEECHES as they call them....GONNA BE A WEIRD AND CONFUSING REBELLION...

By the way I am with the first group...VIVA LE REVOLUTION....TIME FOR A GILOTINE WITH ALL THE RICH SLIMES BLOOD ON IT.
CrimeaRiver

South Ockendon, UK

#69 Jan 10, 2013
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
A fourfold rise in violent crime and the police now carrying sidearm where before they didn't need to is "working"???
Interesting.
This is the nature of crime, it increases and decreases. Usually dependent on how well the economy does. Int he 70 and early 80 we had more crime, these weer the early Thatcher years and a recession forced factories and mines to close. Unemployment spiked and so crime did too.

the late 80s and 90s saw crime rates fall during boom years where unemployment was low.

Police carrying guns was initially in response to the terror threat, after 9/11 and 7/7 police in airports and major transport hubs started carrying firearms. But street police do not, even during the riots here in London 2010, nobody was shot at by the police or rioters.

i didn't say crime doesn't exist in the UK - for Pete's sake mate. I'm just saying we have few guns here and the laws we have in place to curb gun possession appears to work.

We aren't some back water berg in the middle of nowhere. This is London, with ghettoes, crime, homelessness and all the ills that come with grossly over-populated inner cities.

And yet we have managed to keep deaths by guns relatively low.
CrimeaRiver

South Ockendon, UK

#70 Jan 10, 2013
sickofit wrote:
Half the people I have heard post theyw ant to rise up and take guns and go fight want to march on mansions and places of business of the rich and take back there nation....the other half want to march into poor neighborhoods and workingclass neighborhodos and kill off the LEECHES as they call them....GONNA BE A WEIRD AND CONFUSING REBELLION...
By the way I am with the first group...VIVA LE REVOLUTION....TIME FOR A GILOTINE WITH ALL THE RICH SLIMES BLOOD ON IT.
its a strange one. Historically, when times are hard, people look to revolution. France, Russia and even Nazi Germany.

Britain staved off a revolution by introducing a welfare state (as did other nations). If the people never face true poverty then why would they revolt. They are housed, fed and clothed so there is nothing to revolt against.

But with the Banks coollapsing AGAIN, and a threat that welfare will be cut to the most needy while tax breaks are being given to the super rich. I fear you may be right.

But the working classes outnumber the elites by a staggering amount. If you can't appease the working classes then revolution is in the offing.
sickofit

Owatonna, MN

#71 Jan 10, 2013
CrimeaRiver wrote:
<quoted text>
its a strange one. Historically, when times are hard, people look to revolution. France, Russia and even Nazi Germany.
Britain staved off a revolution by introducing a welfare state (as did other nations). If the people never face true poverty then why would they revolt. They are housed, fed and clothed so there is nothing to revolt against.
But with the Banks coollapsing AGAIN, and a threat that welfare will be cut to the most needy while tax breaks are being given to the super rich. I fear you may be right.
But the working classes outnumber the elites by a staggering amount. If you can't appease the working classes then revolution is in the offing.
So true,,...The poor and workingclass in the USA are on boiling over point...Wew atch CEO drive companies into teh ground blame the workers and take many million in golden parachutes and jump to safety...The rich are digging there graves......Time will come. HISTORY IS PROOF......ALWAYS WHEN THE RICH GET LIKE THEY ARE NOW IN THE USA COMMON PEOPLE RISE UP AND DESTROY THE RICH...FACT FACT FACT .
CrimeaRiver

South Ockendon, UK

#72 Jan 10, 2013
sickofit wrote:
<quoted text>
So true,,...The poor and workingclass in the USA are on boiling over point...Wew atch CEO drive companies into teh ground blame the workers and take many million in golden parachutes and jump to safety...The rich are digging there graves......Time will come. HISTORY IS PROOF......ALWAYS WHEN THE RICH GET LIKE THEY ARE NOW IN THE USA COMMON PEOPLE RISE UP AND DESTROY THE RICH...FACT FACT FACT .
I wonder if thats why Obama is trying to appease them with welfare boosts and immigration amnesties
sickofit

Owatonna, MN

#73 Jan 10, 2013
CrimeaRiver wrote:
<quoted text>
I wonder if thats why Obama is trying to appease them with welfare boosts and immigration amnesties
Obama would not have to do that if the rich would be part of the solution and create jobs and pay good wages for workers again..
We Overthrew One King

Yuba City, CA

#74 Jan 10, 2013
American Gun Disease wrote:
Gun disease is alive and unwell on this forum. You really want these conspiracy nuts to have guns?
We conspired and overthrew the government once,
when we established the United States of America,
bitch.
We Overthrew One King

Yuba City, CA

#75 Jan 10, 2013
/sarc
CrimeaRiver

South Ockendon, UK

#76 Jan 10, 2013
We Overthrew One King wrote:
<quoted text>
We conspired and overthrew the government once,
when we established the United States of America,
bitch.
But you've been independent ever since. Not only that, but you've gone on to become the worlds biggest superpower.

What exactly are you overthrowing? tyranny? slavery? monarchy?

I don't want to get into an argument here, its your country after all.

But what do you think would happen to America's prime position in global geo-politics if the govt was overthrown?

“HUNTING RIGHTS ADVOCATE”

Since: Oct 08

Boggy Creek

#77 Jan 10, 2013
CrimeaRiver wrote:
<quoted text>
No worries - sometimes i hit the button twice and post the same comment again.
Regarding the ease at which you could obtain a firearm in the UK, you probably could, you would have to deal with some very shady underworld types. And depending on how far up the chain you obtain a weapon, you would probably be fleeced and charged a great deal more than the cost.
Guns work like drugs here, it goes from dealer to dealer with each adding margin. In 1999, i was offered a freshly boxed .22 handgun (I have no idea what type it was) for 600 ($1100 at '99 exchange rates). That is failry cheap and suggests it had probably been used. I steered clear.
And NO - I wasn't a saint in my youth. Who is? I've grown up since and can see how much more dangerous our cities would be if guns were freely available.
I am concerned that the proliferation of Guns on UK is on the rise. But far from suggest that all citizens should have guns to protect themselves, I would prefer that the police stamp down hard on gun possession and keep them off the streets.
As an American I would say to you that if the police have all the guns, what happens if the police become the enemy? If the government attempts to exert undo (or even illegal) control over the people, who will its enforcers be? The police and the military, right? THAT is why Americans refuse to let the military and police be the only ones with guns. It is true that we have the right to rebel if it becomes necessary. It is also true that the government would have no trouble crushing an unarmed rebellion. Our distrust of governments, even our own, runs very deep.
realist

Greensboro, NC

#78 Jan 10, 2013
If Obama succeeds in his Gun Contol wishes, the only ones that will have guns will be the criminals of which his "brothers" are outstanding in numbers, 11.5 to 12.5% of the population but with over 35% of the criminal base. But ah, he knows that !

Since: Nov 09

Newnan, GA

#80 Jan 16, 2013
CrimeaRiver wrote:
<quoted text>
insults in the first 3 sentences...... POST IGNORED!!
Ignorance in all of your posts...you deserved more than 3 insults

“Antisocialistic”

Since: May 12

Lake Charles, LA

#81 Jan 16, 2013
CrimeaRiver wrote:
<quoted text>Its not so much a case of law abiding citizens being trustworthy. I'm sure they are.

I guess our mindest is that of 'if there are no guns, there'll be no shootings - either pre-meditated or accidental'. Which is easy to say in a country where guns are rare.

I suppose it'll be much harder to enact in the US as guns are already on the streets and will simply go underground if there is a blanket ban on firearms.
It's not the guns. That's the part you seem to insist on ignoring.
The US has a society problem, not a firearm problem.
Look at the FBI statistics on gun crime. Those statistics are broken down into gun crime by each race. Like it or not, remove the gun crime by the race that comprises less than 13% of the US population, and our gun crime is lower than yours per capita.
Yes, I know the accusations of being a racist are about to fly my way. But, I didn't publish the facts, the FBI did.

“Antisocialistic”

Since: May 12

Lake Charles, LA

#82 Jan 16, 2013
CrimeaRiver wrote:
<quoted text>I suppose the thinking behind registration is that if you register a gun in your name following a security check then you are less likely to use that weapon in a crime.

Also, if you are stopped in the street or your house is searched and you are found to be in possession of an unregistered weapon or a weapon where identifying marks are scratched out, then you will be prosecuted, fined and/or imprisoned.

If a registered weapon is used in a crime after it has been stolen, then at least the police have a trail from which to start their investigation.

Registering of weapons works in the UK (to a degree) because of the scarce nature of them. It would be harder i suppose in the US where because there are so many guns.
Criminals by definition are not going to follow a law to register their firearms. They will be utilizing stolen or black market firearms.
Registration does nothing more than create a list for confiscation when the time comes.
Watcher

Bowling Green, KY

#83 Jan 16, 2013
CrimeaRiver wrote:
<quoted text>
But you've been independent ever since. Not only that, but you've gone on to become the worlds biggest superpower.
What exactly are you overthrowing? tyranny? slavery? monarchy?
I don't want to get into an argument here, its your country after all.
But what do you think would happen to America's prime position in global geo-politics if the govt was overthrown?
They don't know. It's a new movenment I call the American Taliban. Their life stucks just like a poor Arab and they need to blame someone. Seems from what I can gather they are against free elections and majority rule.
you must

Santa Fe, NM

#84 Jan 16, 2013
We Overthrew One King wrote:
<quoted text>
We conspired and overthrew the government once,
when we established the United States of America,
bitch.
be old - that would explain your delusions

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