It's the Guns, Stupid

It's the Guns, Stupid

There are 103296 comments on the Truthdig story from Apr 20, 2007, titled It's the Guns, Stupid. In it, Truthdig reports that:

“And that's the end of the issue”

Why do we have the same futile argument every time there is a mass killing? Advocates of gun control try to open a discussion about whether more reasonable weapons statutes might reduce the number of violent ... via Truthdig

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Truthdig.

Guppy

Venice, FL

#97607 Jan 21, 2013
Brit Expat wrote:
Just a thought!
It's almost certain from my experience, engaging with some Americans during my 82 years. They are completely USless without thier little guns.
The really appalling thing is thier insane gusto, wanting to export the insanity of the USA outside of thier borders.
Old Troll
AnnAgain

Oakland, CA

#97608 Jan 21, 2013
Obama will become the Democrats' Reagan. The narrative writes itself. He will emerge as an iconic figure who struggled through a recession cleaning up the Bush mess and a terrorized world, reshaping the economy within it, passing universal health care, strafing the ranks of Al Qaeda, presiding over a civil-rights revolution, and surely will be enjoying the fruits of the recovery.
Dr Freud

Bethnal Green, UK

#97609 Jan 21, 2013
Brit Expat wrote:
Just a thought!
It's almost certain from my experience, engaging with some Americans during my 82 years. They are completely USless without thier little guns.
The really appalling thing is thier insane gusto, wanting to export the insanity of the USA outside of thier borders.
Many Brits see YOU in the VERY SAME light as you cast upon the Americans.
Dr Freud

Bethnal Green, UK

#97610 Jan 21, 2013
Spocko wrote:
<quoted text>
Blah, blah, blah, blah you are a sorry retarded parrot ...
You didn't even both to address his points. Why not?
Dr Freud

Bethnal Green, UK

#97611 Jan 21, 2013
AnnAgain wrote:
Obama will become the Democrats' Reagan. The narrative writes itself. He will emerge as an iconic figure who struggled through a recession cleaning up the Bush mess and a terrorized world, reshaping the economy within it, passing universal health care, strafing the ranks of Al Qaeda, presiding over a civil-rights revolution, and surely will be enjoying the fruits of the recovery.
Ya. He cries crocodile tears for the undead children of Sandy Hook, but has NO TEARS AT ALL for ALL of the CHILDREN his DRONES have MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD!
Oh, and by the way: Precisely WHAT is 'universal health care?'
WHO provides that, and HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?
Are doctors and nurses to be FORCED to provide that care, and WHO pays them for BEING FORCED to provide services AGAINST THEIR WILL?
Brit Expat

Montpellier, France

#97612 Jan 21, 2013
Dr Freud wrote:
<quoted text>
Many Brits see YOU in the VERY SAME light as you cast upon the Americans.
Ahhh Is that a fact? Are you an Englishman? With some pedigree, or a resident of Britain? There is a difference!
Dr Freud

Bethnal Green, UK

#97613 Jan 21, 2013
Brit Expat wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahhh Is that a fact? Are you an Englishman? With some pedigree, or a resident of Britain? There is a difference!
"Are you an Englishman?"

I find THAT question to be rather revealing, inasmuch as there are FOUR distinct nations in the U.K.:
[1] The Welsh
[2] The English
[3] The Scots
[4] The Northern Irish
Anyone, and I mean ANYONE in the isles who speaks ONLY of the English, is either an EXTREME racist, or a poseur.
Only YOU know for sure!
AnnAgain

Oakland, CA

#97614 Jan 21, 2013
Dr Freud wrote:
<quoted text>
Ya. He cries crocodile tears for the undead children of Sandy Hook, but has NO TEARS AT ALL for ALL of the CHILDREN his DRONES have MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD!
Oh, and by the way: Precisely WHAT is 'universal health care?'
WHO provides that, and HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?
Are doctors and nurses to be FORCED to provide that care, and WHO pays them for BEING FORCED to provide services AGAINST THEIR WILL?
LOL ... sour grapes!!
Dr Freud

Bethnal Green, UK

#97615 Jan 21, 2013
AnnAgain wrote:
<quoted text>
LOL ... sour grapes!!
Ya. He cries crocodile tears for the undead children of Sandy Hook, but has NO TEARS AT ALL for ALL of the CHILDREN his DRONES have MURDERED IN COLD BLOOD!
Oh, and by the way: Precisely WHAT is 'universal health care?'
WHO provides that, and HOW MUCH DOES IT COST?
Are doctors and nurses to be FORCED to provide that care, and WHO pays them for BEING FORCED to provide services AGAINST THEIR WILL?

“" BITE ME "”

Since: Dec 10

Olney township

#97617 Jan 21, 2013
Dr Freud wrote:
<quoted text>
"he tried to compromise too much with people of bad faith."
You mean, he —himself of bad faith— attempted to compromise on the principles of the American republic.
The People of the "American Republic", as you've put it.

Endorsed his first term...

By electing him to a second.

Overwhelmingly.
Brit Expat

Montpellier, France

#97619 Jan 21, 2013
Dr Freud wrote:
<quoted text>
"Are you an Englishman?"
I find THAT question to be rather revealing, inasmuch as there are FOUR distinct nations in the U.K.:
[1] The Welsh
[2] The English
[3] The Scots
[4] The Northern Irish
Anyone, and I mean ANYONE in the isles who speaks ONLY of the English, is either an EXTREME racist, or a poseur.
Only YOU know for sure!
Hee hee. I know for sure!

Just for starters:-

There was a young man from Wales

Who lived on all shit and snails

When he coul'dnt get these

he lived on the cheese

that he scrapped from his knob with his nails.

Who said? I'm not British? F-ck that an English pig. LOL
Guppy

Rotonda West, FL

#97620 Jan 21, 2013
look wrote:
<quoted text>Why aren't men and women that own guns good people???What are they in your eyes???You do realize men and women with guns fight everyday for our freedom and security...People with guns win wars and save lives everyday around the world, do you think the Syrian rebels should lay down their guns??? I know a ton of good people that own guns, what do you own besides a cat???
Cat? I own THREE cats.

Why aren't men and women that own guns good people? They are weird people. Backwards.

Our freedom and security? Running around Afghanistan etc. and killing people randomly does what for our freedom and security? They shoot us, we shoot them, and then someone decides it's over, and everyone goes home. Total waste of life.

Because I don't own a gun means I don't own anything? I don't know what you mean?
Dr Freud

Bethnal Green, UK

#97621 Jan 21, 2013
Empathica wrote:
<quoted text>
The People of the "American Republic", as you've put it.
Endorsed his first term...
By electing him to a second.
Overwhelmingly.
And voting machines are absolutely never able to be hacked, right?

Since: Dec 10

Brisbane, Australia

#97623 Jan 21, 2013
Things We Learned About Howard's War On Guns

Aussie gun owners were more receptive because they were getting a little somethin' somethin' in return. A similar approach in the US would put a massive strain on their economy.
To make this plan work, there had to be a federally financed gun buyback scheme. Ultimately, the cost of the buyback was met by a special one-off tax imposed on all Australians. This required new legislation and was widely accepted across the political spectrum. Almost 700,000 guns were bought back and destroyed — the equivalent of 40 million guns in the United States.

What a surprise. Racists and bigots like guns.
The leaders of the National Party, as well as the premier of Queensland, courageously supported my government’s decision, despite the electoral pain it caused them. Within a year, a new populist and conservative political party, the One Nation Party, emerged and took many votes from our coalition in subsequent state and federal elections; one of its key policies was the reversal of the gun laws.

Your "It's because of societies moral decay" argument is null and void you redneck yokel. Guns kill people.
The fundamental problem was the ready availability of high-powered weapons, which enabled people to convert their murderous impulses into mass killing. Certainly, shortcomings in treating mental illness and the harmful influence of violent video games and movies may have played a role. But nothing trumps easy access to a gun. It is easier to kill 10 people with a gun than with a knife.

While his lack of sporting prowess and dorky demeanor suggested otherwise, Howard must have had a pretty mean "Don't fuck with me or I'll end you!" side to him behind closed doors.
For a time, it seemed that certain states might refuse to enact the ban. But I made clear that my government was willing to hold a nationwide referendum to alter the Australian Constitution and give the federal government constitutional power over guns. Such a referendum would have been expensive and divisive, but it would have passed. And all state governments knew this.

This was the Howard Government's greatest achievement and will benefit Australians for generations to come.
In the end, we won the battle to change gun laws because there was majority support across Australia for banning certain weapons. And today, there is a wide consensus that our 1996 reforms not only reduced the gun-related homicide rate, but also the suicide rate. The Australian Institute of Criminology found that gun-related murders and suicides fell sharply after 1996. The American Journal of Law and Economics found that our gun buyback scheme cut firearm suicides by 74 percent. In the 18 years before the 1996 reforms, Australia suffered 13 gun massacres — each with more than four victims — causing a total of 102 deaths. There has not been a single massacre in that category since 1996.

A: This is how true governments show courage, strength and leadership when they are serious about protecting it's citizens in the face of adversity in a sane country, and it works!
Dr Freud

Bethnal Green, UK

#97624 Jan 21, 2013
Brit Expat wrote:
<quoted text>
Hee hee. I know for sure!
Just for starters:-
There was a young man from Wales
Who lived on all shit and snails
When he coul'dnt get these
he lived on the cheese
that he scrapped from his knob with his nails.
Who said? I'm not British? F-ck that an English pig. LOL
There was once a self-proclaimed British Expat,
Who was enamored of declaring both this, and that,
But upon closer inspection of his declarations,
It was found that he engaged in deceits, and deceptions,
Being nothing more than a whole reeking load of bull scat!
Brit Expat

Montpellier, France

#97625 Jan 21, 2013
Dr Freud wrote:
<quoted text>
There was once a self-proclaimed British Expat,
Who was enamored of declaring both this, and that,
But upon closer inspection of his declarations,
It was found that he engaged in deceits, and deceptions,
Being nothing more than a whole reeking load of bull scat!
Ok. Not that blill tho. as limiricks go. lol.

There was a young girl from Australia

Who's thing was as big as a dalia

At three pence a smell she did quite well

But! sixpence a lick was a failure

“" BITE ME "”

Since: Dec 10

Olney township

#97626 Jan 21, 2013
Dr Freud wrote:
<quoted text>
And voting machines are absolutely never able to be hacked, right?
lol

Voting machines?

Listen up cupcake...

The American People, overwhelmingly re elected this President despite,

Horrendously planned and subversively carried out attempts at voter suppression in several states. Perpetrated by overly zealous conservative thargs...

Like you

Since: Dec 10

Brisbane, Australia

#97627 Jan 21, 2013
Tougher laws, gun buyback on target
Date January 15, 2013
Since the 1997 gun buyback, your chance of being a victim of gun violence has more than halved. Yet as Monday's Herald pointed out, the number of guns in Australia has increased by nearly one-fifth over the same period. What's going on?
The simplest answer is that the population is a fifth larger than it was in 1997. In reality, Australia has about as many guns per person as we did after the gun buyback. The only way to conclude the gun buyback has been undone is to ignore a decade and a half of population growth.
Moreover, the figure that really matters is the share of gun-owning households. In 1997 many households used the chance to clean out the closet and take a weapon that hadn't been used in years to the local police station (the most common weapon handed in was a .22 calibre rifle). So the share of gun-owning households dropped from 15 per cent to 8 per cent.
New firearms in Australia may be being bought by people who already have a weapon in the home. Adding a tenth gun to the household arsenal is much less risky than buying the first. Trouble is, surveys of household gun ownership are rare, so we don't know whether the share of gun-owning households has risen.
To understand the policy success of the National Firearms Agreement, it's important to recognise precisely what happened. Alongside the gun buyback, what had been a patchwork of state and territory regulations was strengthened and harmonised. Self-loading rifles, self-loading shotguns and pump-action shotguns were banned. Firearm owners were required to obtain licences and register their weapons.
While the changes were backed by the then Labor opposition, political credit must go to then prime minister John Howard and National Party leader Tim Fischer for standing up to the hardliners in their own parties. They paid a short-term electoral price but history will judge them well.
In the 1990s some argued that the gun buyback would make no difference to the firearms homicide and suicide rates. Yet careful studies have shown otherwise. In the decade before Port Arthur, Australia had an average of one mass shooting (involving five or more deaths) every year. Since then, we have not had a single mass shooting. The odds of this being a coincidence are less than one in 100.
cont:

Since: Dec 10

Brisbane, Australia

#97628 Jan 21, 2013
cont:
The gun buyback also had some unexpected payoffs. While at the Australian National University, in work with my former academic colleague Christine Neill, I looked at the effect of the Australian gun buyback on firearm suicide and homicide rates. Shocking as mass shootings are, they represent a tiny fraction of all gun deaths. If there's a gun in your home, the person most likely to kill you with it is yourself, followed by your spouse.
Neill and I found that the firearm suicide and homicide rates more than halved after the Australian gun buyback. Although the gun death rate was falling before 1997, it accelerated downwards after the buyback. Looking across states, we also found that jurisdictions where more guns were bought back experienced a greater reduction in firearms homicide and suicide.
We estimate that the Australian gun buyback continues to save about 200 lives per year. That means thousands of people are walking the streets today who would not be alive without the National Firearms Agreement. Other work, including that by public health researchers Simon Chapman, Philip Alpers, Kingsley Agho and Michael Jones, reaches a similar conclusion.
For the United States, where Alpers will present research on the Australian experience at the Summit on Reducing Gun Violence in America this week, reform is tougher. According to the General Social Survey, 32 per cent of US households own a gun, and a patchwork of city and state laws means that restrictions in one jurisdiction are often undercut by people travelling interstate to buy a weapon.
Historically, the US National Rifle Association was a moderate body, akin to some Australian shooting groups. It supported the first federal gun laws in the 1930s, and backed a ban on cheap ''Saturday night specials'' in the 1960s. Since the 1977 ''Cincinnati Revolt'', when hardliners took over, the NRA has opposed all restrictions on firearms ownership, including bans on assault rifles and armour-piercing bullets (''cop killers''). Members of Congress rate the NRA the most powerful lobbying organisation in the nation.

The challenge for American legislators today is to stand up to these powerful extremists, and follow the example of Australia's leaders in 1996. With 86 Americans dying each day because of gun accidents, suicides or homicides, perhaps our experience can persuade sensible US legislators that there is a better way. As in Australia, the onus is on the conservative side of politics.
For Australia, the challenges in firearms policy are more modest, but still real. All states and territories should heed the call from the Minister for Justice, Jason Clare, to implement a national firearms register. This will help to keep track of weapons when they are sold or their owners move interstate. And it will help to ensure that Australian firearms do not fall into the wrong hands.
Andrew Leigh is the federal member for Fraser, and a former professor of economics at the Australian National University.
A: If Obama is serious he should canvas countries who have been successful in reducing or stopping the amount of massacres in their countries because of the introduction of tough gun control laws and strong conviction to find a solid solution to the problem......
There are many countries who live with bloodshed and violence and massacre's daily because of guns .....and only a handful that can honestly say they have succeeded in removing the threat because of the stricter gun control laws....
"Australia" can lay claim to being one that been successful.
Brit Expat

Montpellier, France

#97629 Jan 21, 2013
Dr Freud wrote:
<quoted text>
There was once a self-proclaimed British Expat,
Who was enamored of declaring both this, and that,
But upon closer inspection of his declarations,
It was found that he engaged in deceits, and deceptions,
Being nothing more than a whole reeking load of bull scat!
Hee hee. Where do you reside in the UK? ENGLISH?PAKI?ECT?ECT?ECT?

I'm of the great days. The Empire.

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