It's the Guns, Stupid

It's the Guns, Stupid

There are 103299 comments on the Truthdig story from Apr 20, 2007, titled It's the Guns, Stupid. In it, Truthdig reports that:

“And that's the end of the issue”

Why do we have the same futile argument every time there is a mass killing? Advocates of gun control try to open a discussion about whether more reasonable weapons statutes might reduce the number of violent ... via Truthdig

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Truthdig.

Marauder

Anchorage, AK

#97493 Jan 21, 2013
GoGoBar wrote:
Therefore, the significance of the few gun control measures found to be effective should not be overlooked. There is empirical support for some moderate gun controls. I favor a national "instant records check," which would screen for high-risk gun buyers similar to owner license and purchase permit systems, but without the delays and arbitrary administration which sometimes characterizes those controls. The system should cover nondealer transactions as well as dealer sales, and apply to rifles and shotguns, as well as handguns. Also, tighter licensing of gun dealers and increased enforcement of carry laws may be useful.
Gun control is a very minor, though not entirely irrelevant, part of the solution to the violence problem, just as guns are of only very minor significance as a cause of the problem. The U.S. has more violence than other nations for reasons unrelated to its extraordinarily high gun ownership. Fixating on guns seems to be, for many people, a fetish which allows them to ignore the more intransigent causes of American violence, including its dying cities, inequality, deteriorating family structure, and the all- pervasive economic and social consequences of a history of slavery and racism. And just as gun control serves this purpose for liberals, equally useless "get tough" proposals, like longer prison terms, mandatory sentencing, and more use of the death penalty serve the purpose for conservatives. All parties to the crime debate would do well to give more concentrated attention to more difficult, but far more relevant, issues like how to generate more good-paying jobs for the underclass which is at the heart of the violence problem
Are these estimates plausible? Could it really be true that Americans use guns for self-protection as often as 2.1 to 2.5 million times a year? The estimate may seem remarkable in comparison to expectations based on conventional wisdom, but it is not implausibly large in comparison to various gun-related phenomena. There are probably over 220 million guns in private hands in the U.S.,[57] implying that only about 1% of them are used for defensive purposes in any one year--not an impossibly high fraction. In a December 1993 Gallup survey, 49% of U.S. households reported owning a gun, and 31% of adults reported personally owning one.[58] These figures indicate that there are about 47.6 million households with a gun, with perhaps 93 million, or 49% of the adult U.S. population living in households with guns, and about 59.1 million adults personally owning a gun. Again, it hardly seems implausible that 3%(2.5 million/93 million) of the people with immediate access to a gun could have used one defensively in a given year.

Huge numbers of Americans not only have access to guns, but the overwhelming majority of gun owners, if one can believe their statements, are willing to use a gun defensively. In a December 1989 national survey, 78% of American gun owners stated that they would not only be willing to use a gun defensively in some way, but would be willing to shoot a burglar.[59] The percentage willing to use a gun defensively in some way, though not necessarily by shooting someone, would presumably be even higher than this.
Marauder

Anchorage, AK

#97494 Jan 21, 2013
tinydropthestickgooddog wrote:
<quoted text>
a ha- so it was cheap gainsaying -i win again ha ha
- and hey I am at Fairbanks aerodrome - you gonna come pick me up - i have. come to confiscate your guns and give you a flower and some hooch to help you mellow out - tune up drop in and fade out maan .
You failed to follow directions...you'll be waiting a long time.

“I am an ALIEN!!!”

Since: Dec 06

KREUZBERG...

#97495 Jan 21, 2013
Marauder wrote:
<quoted text>
You failed to follow directions...you'll be waiting a long time.
Is that like gun talk hit's like some rubber bullet deep...

“shirley you cant be serious ”

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#97496 Jan 21, 2013
Armed Veteran wrote:
<quoted text>
Ever notice how these libtards can only come back with ad hominem attacks and sexual innuendos when they can't hold up their side of the argument??
Quite comical really.
clutching at straws with one hand - cock - oops - I mean gun in the other hand -
your not a hero
your not a patriot
your not a protector of the peace
your not anything
except someone whose life is defined by your weapon
- weak as piss really
ha ha ah ha cough cough
Marauder

Anchorage, AK

#97497 Jan 21, 2013
GoGoBar wrote:
<quoted text>
He knows exactly what he is doing. He declared 3 times that it is time to have a MEANINGFUL discussion about guns.
He has succeeded.
"MEANINGFUL discussion about guns."

Meaning his way...my answer is NO!

“shirley you cant be serious ”

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#97498 Jan 21, 2013
Marauder wrote:
<quoted text>
You failed to follow directions...you'll be waiting a long time.
oh I was joking - it was a JOKE - i wouldnt be found dead in alaska - you lack humour and insight as all you gunsuckers do - Little Big Man syndrome - again - lol
Marauder

Anchorage, AK

#97499 Jan 21, 2013
tinydropthestickgooddog wrote:
<quoted text>
oh I was joking - it was a JOKE - i wouldnt be found dead in alaska - you lack humour and insight as all you gunsuckers do - Little Big Man syndrome - again - lol
I wasn't...but I knew you wouldn't show anyway.

“shirley you cant be serious ”

Since: Oct 12

Location hidden

#97500 Jan 21, 2013
Marauder wrote:
<quoted text>
I wasn't...but I knew you wouldn't show anyway.
I knew you wouldnt - so. I never got on the plane
- i am reclined here in bermuda with my latest young mistress - in my robe sipping a tom collins and watching the sun set on another perfect day in paradise - sucks to be you - you inconsequencial twat . ha ha ha

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#97501 Jan 21, 2013
tinydropthestickgooddog wrote:
<quoted text>
clutching at straws with one hand - cock - oops - I mean gun in the other hand -
your not a hero
your not a patriot
your not a protector of the peace
your not anything
except someone whose life is defined by your weapon
- weak as piss really
ha ha ah ha cough cough
Thank you for proving my point.....again.

“Si vis pacem, para bellum !!”

Since: Dec 07

Southeast Virginia

#97502 Jan 21, 2013
tinydropthestickgooddog wrote:
<quoted text>
I knew you wouldnt - so. I never got on the plane
- i am reclined here in bermuda with my latest young mistress - in my robe sipping a tom collins and watching the sun set on another perfect day in paradise - sucks to be you - you inconsequencial twat . ha ha ha
Right.....watching the sun set....at 6:47 IN THE MORNING????? That is some fantasy world you live in.

And hitting the hooch this early??? You need to seek help for that.
GoGoBar

Hua Hin, Thailand

#97503 Jan 21, 2013
Marauder wrote:
<quoted text>
Are these estimates plausible? Could it really be true that Americans use guns for self-protection as often as 2.1 to 2.5 million times a year? The estimate may seem remarkable in comparison to expectations based on conventional wisdom, but it is not implausibly large in comparison to various gun-related phenomena. There are probably over 220 million guns in private hands in the U.S.,[57] implying that only about 1% of them are used for defensive purposes in any one year--not an impossibly high fraction. In a December 1993 Gallup survey, 49% of U.S. households reported owning a gun, and 31% of adults reported personally owning one.[58] These figures indicate that there are about 47.6 million households with a gun, with perhaps 93 million, or 49% of the adult U.S. population living in households with guns, and about 59.1 million adults personally owning a gun. Again, it hardly seems implausible that 3%(2.5 million/93 million) of the people with immediate access to a gun could have used one defensively in a given year.
Huge numbers of Americans not only have access to guns, but the overwhelming majority of gun owners, if one can believe their statements, are willing to use a gun defensively. In a December 1989 national survey, 78% of American gun owners stated that they would not only be willing to use a gun defensively in some way, but would be willing to shoot a burglar.[59] The percentage willing to use a gun defensively in some way, though not necessarily by shooting someone, would presumably be even higher than this.
Well MaFrauder, the author of my quote was making the point that firearm ownership has no effect on violence one way or another except for murder and robberry increasing.

His name is Gary Kleck. You can read more of conclusions which do not support any of the NRA claims.

Therefore, the significance of the few gun control measures found to be effective should not be overlooked. There is empirical support for some moderate gun controls. I favor a national "instant records check," which would screen for high-risk gun buyers similar to owner license and purchase permit systems, but without the delays and arbitrary administration which sometimes characterizes those controls. The system should cover nondealer transactions as well as dealer sales, and apply to rifles and shotguns, as well as handguns. Also, tighter licensing of gun dealers and increased enforcement of carry laws may be useful.

"The U.S. has more violence than other nations for reasons unrelated to its extraordinarily high gun ownership."

Gun control is a very minor, though not entirely irrelevant, part of the solution to the violence problem, just as guns are of only very minor significance as a cause of the problem. Fixating on guns seems to be, for many people, a fetish which allows them to ignore the more intransigent causes of American violence, including its dying cities, inequality, deteriorating family structure, and the all- pervasive economic and social consequences of a history of slavery and racism. And just as gun control serves this purpose for liberals, equally useless "get tough" proposals, like longer prison terms, mandatory sentencing, and more use of the death penalty serve the purpose for conservatives. All parties to the crime debate would do well to give more concentrated attention to more difficult, but far more relevant, issues like how to generate more good-paying jobs for the underclass which is at the heart of the violence problem
GoGoBar

Hua Hin, Thailand

#97504 Jan 21, 2013
Marauder wrote:
<quoted text>
"MEANINGFUL discussion about guns."
Meaning his way...my answer is NO!
The gunnuts have forced the discussion.

"With ever increasing frequency"

The President has issued executive orders called for by Wayne LaPierre.
boo

Braniewo, Poland

#97505 Jan 21, 2013
GoGoBar wrote:
<quoted text>
Well MaFrauder, the author of my quote was making the point that firearm ownership has no effect on violence one way or another except for murder and robberry increasing.
His name is Gary Kleck. You can read more of conclusions which do not support any of the NRA claims.
Therefore, the significance of the few gun control measures found to be effective should not be overlooked. There is empirical support for some moderate gun controls. I favor a national "instant records check," which would screen for high-risk gun buyers similar to owner license and purchase permit systems, but without the delays and arbitrary administration which sometimes characterizes those controls. The system should cover nondealer transactions as well as dealer sales, and apply to rifles and shotguns, as well as handguns. Also, tighter licensing of gun dealers and increased enforcement of carry laws may be useful.
"The U.S. has more violence than other nations for reasons unrelated to its extraordinarily high gun ownership."
Gun control is a very minor, though not entirely irrelevant, part of the solution to the violence problem, just as guns are of only very minor significance as a cause of the problem. Fixating on guns seems to be, for many people, a fetish which allows them to ignore the more intransigent causes of American violence, including its dying cities, inequality, deteriorating family structure, and the all- pervasive economic and social consequences of a history of slavery and racism. And just as gun control serves this purpose for liberals, equally useless "get tough" proposals, like longer prison terms, mandatory sentencing, and more use of the death penalty serve the purpose for conservatives. All parties to the crime debate would do well to give more concentrated attention to more difficult, but far more relevant, issues like how to generate more good-paying jobs for the underclass which is at the heart of the violence problem
Another boring post from a boring person
GoGoBar

Hua Hin, Thailand

#97506 Jan 21, 2013
boo wrote:
<quoted text>
Another boring post from a boring person
You dont like Gary Kleck's conclusions.HAHAHAHAHA
boo

Moscow, Russia

#97507 Jan 21, 2013
GoGoBar wrote:
<quoted text>
You dont like Gary Kleck's conclusions.HAHAHAHAHA
Dont know or care who he is. This thread is the most boring on the site.
Marauder

Anchorage, AK

#97509 Jan 21, 2013
tinydropthestickgooddog wrote:
<quoted text>
I knew you wouldnt - so. I never got on the plane
- i am reclined here in bermuda with my latest young mistress - in my robe sipping a tom collins and watching the sun set on another perfect day in paradise - sucks to be you - you inconsequencial twat . ha ha ha
Well since I'm "inconsequencial", then me owning and bearing arms to include some of the so called "assault weapons" should not bother you or anyone else. Thanks.
boo

Thailand

#97510 Jan 21, 2013
74% of all gun owners keep their guns within reach of kids and pets.

87 % of campers admit to shooting bears

48% of anti gun crusaders own firearms themselves

79% of non gun owners in Canada have been involved in homosexual pornography.

87% of turtles have had guns pointed at them
Marauder

Anchorage, AK

#97511 Jan 21, 2013
GoGoBar wrote:
<quoted text>
Well MaFrauder, the author of my quote was making the point that firearm ownership has no effect on violence one way or another except for murder and robberry increasing.
His name is Gary Kleck. You can read more of conclusions which do not support any of the NRA claims.
Therefore, the significance of the few gun control measures found to be effective should not be overlooked. There is empirical support for some moderate gun controls. I favor a national "instant records check," which would screen for high-risk gun buyers similar to owner license and purchase permit systems, but without the delays and arbitrary administration which sometimes characterizes those controls. The system should cover nondealer transactions as well as dealer sales, and apply to rifles and shotguns, as well as handguns. Also, tighter licensing of gun dealers and increased enforcement of carry laws may be useful.
"The U.S. has more violence than other nations for reasons unrelated to its extraordinarily high gun ownership."
Gun control is a very minor, though not entirely irrelevant, part of the solution to the violence problem, just as guns are of only very minor significance as a cause of the problem. Fixating on guns seems to be, for many people, a fetish which allows them to ignore the more intransigent causes of American violence, including its dying cities, inequality, deteriorating family structure, and the all- pervasive economic and social consequences of a history of slavery and racism. And just as gun control serves this purpose for liberals, equally useless "get tough" proposals, like longer prison terms, mandatory sentencing, and more use of the death penalty serve the purpose for conservatives. All parties to the crime debate would do well to give more concentrated attention to more difficult, but far more relevant, issues like how to generate more good-paying jobs for the underclass which is at the heart of the violence problem
I know exactly who wrote your post...in 1991...my post was NOT from the NRA...so go back and read mine again...it was from the very same author, Gary Kleck in 1995. It was his awakening to the fact that we have much more DGU's than previously reported. I’m glad to see that you are supporting his findings.

“Could it really be true that Americans use guns for self-protection as often as 2.1 to 2.5 million times a year? The estimate may seem remarkable in comparison to expectations based on conventional wisdom, but it is not implausibly large in comparison to various gun-related phenomena. There are probably over 220 million guns in private hands in the U.S.,[57] implying that only about 1% of them are used for defensive purposes in any one year--not an impossibly high fraction. In a December 1993 Gallup survey, 49% of U.S. households reported owning a gun, and 31% of adults reported personally owning one.[58] These figures indicate that there are about 47.6 million households with a gun, with perhaps 93 million, or 49% of the adult U.S. population living in households with guns, and about 59.1 million adults personally owning a gun. Again, it hardly seems implausible that 3%(2.5 million/93 million) of the people with immediate access to a gun could have used one defensively in a given year.”

ARMED RESISTANCE TO CRIME: THE PREVALENCE AND NATURE OF SELF-DEFENSE WITH A GUN *
Gary Kleck
Marc Gertz
Copyright © 1995 by the Northwestern University School of Law, Gary Kleck & Marc Gertz

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/KleckAndGertz1....
Marauder

Anchorage, AK

#97512 Jan 21, 2013
GoGoBar wrote:
<quoted text>
You dont like Gary Kleck's conclusions.HAHAHAHAHA
Do you like his conclusions that I posted for you...? Yours were from 1991...his later one...mine...was from 1995.

I like them...how about you...?
boo

Thailand

#97513 Jan 21, 2013
99.9% of people who talk about guns on the internet day after day are retards

100% of people who quote statistics about gun figures are morons.

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