The Moment Is Coming When Obama Will ...

The Moment Is Coming When Obama Will Have to Act

There are 28 comments on the www.theatlantic.com story from Jan 14, 2013, titled The Moment Is Coming When Obama Will Have to Act. In it, www.theatlantic.com reports that:

In Melville's Moby Dick, the whaling ship Pequod crosses the equator on its quest for the White Whale, and in that instant, Captain Ahab smashes his quadrant to the deck and crushes it underfoot. No more careful navigation. It is, we understand, Moby Dick or die.

As we hurtle toward the new debt-limit crisis, President Obama has done much the same. He says he won't negotiate spending cuts with a gun to his head. He's also said that he won't invoke § 4 of the Fourteenth Amendment, with its provision that "the public debt of the United States . . . shall not be questioned," to give him authority to continue borrowing once the debt limit has been reached. The Senate Democratic leadership Friday urged him to prepare to raise the ceiling unilaterally; so far, he has remained mum.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.theatlantic.com.

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jack lewinske

Nha Trang, Vietnam

#1 Jan 14, 2013
so U think mum..........;)

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#2 Jan 14, 2013
NO CHOICE.

While he could take my advice, and cut all Federal spending and expenditures in districts of Congressmen who vote NO to paying the bills...

and he could do the silly 'platinum coin'....

and he could continue to negotiate with rocks...

I believe President Obamam has no choice, under his presidential oath, but to invoke the 14th Amendment. And order the debt ceiling raised. This is an executive, not a congressional function. The money is already constitutionally allocated by congress.

NO CHOICE
jack lewinske

Nha Trang, Vietnam

#3 Jan 14, 2013
Dr. Bill_phd! what's yo pick for the Super-Ball in New Orlean?!!;)
Ninthman

“Obama Shames the USA”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#4 Jan 14, 2013
Obamadog needs mo' BLING like Solyndra an sheet!
Ninthman

“Obama Shames the USA”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#5 Jan 14, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
NO CHOICE.
While he could take my advice, and cut all Federal spending and expenditures in districts of Congressmen who vote NO to paying the bills...
and he could do the silly 'platinum coin'....
and he could continue to negotiate with rocks...
I believe President Obamam has no choice, under his presidential oath, but to invoke the 14th Amendment. And order the debt ceiling raised. This is an executive, not a congressional function. The money is already constitutionally allocated by congress.
NO CHOICE
Barack Benghazi, the "ACORN WHISPERER" has spoken and Bill the dog rolls over for him. Cute!
Ninthman

“Obama Shames the USA”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#6 Jan 14, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
NO CHOICE.
While he could take my advice, and cut all Federal spending and expenditures in districts of Congressmen who vote NO to paying the bills...
and he could do the silly 'platinum coin'....
and he could continue to negotiate with rocks...
I believe President Obamam has no choice, under his presidential oath, but to invoke the 14th Amendment. And order the debt ceiling raised. This is an executive, not a congressional function. The money is already constitutionally allocated by congress.
NO CHOICE
Obama's whole life is an act.
Robert

Lithia Springs, GA

#7 Jan 14, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
NO CHOICE.
While he could take my advice, and cut all Federal spending and expenditures in districts of Congressmen who vote NO to paying the bills...
and he could do the silly 'platinum coin'....
and he could continue to negotiate with rocks...
I believe President Obamam has no choice, under his presidential oath, but to invoke the 14th Amendment. And order the debt ceiling raised. This is an executive, not a congressional function. The money is already constitutionally allocated by congress.
NO CHOICE
Yes there is a choice, If President Obama and the Democrats disagree with the House’s tax reform legislation, they can pass what they want through the Senate, where they still have a majority. The differences would then be resolved not behind closed doors in Obama’s White House, but by a House Senate Conference Committee. The debate would then reveal to the public where the two parties really stand, and the public can then judge which party’s policies are more likely to restore the American Dream and booming growth.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#8 Jan 14, 2013
So if Obama follows the constitution and invokes the 14th amendment, will the GOPasaurs squeal that he's violating the consitution?

Bet on it!

“Open your eyes”

Since: Sep 09

Central Florida

#9 Jan 14, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
NO CHOICE.

I believe President Obamam has no choice, under his presidential oath, but to invoke the 14th Amendment. And order the debt ceiling raised. This is an executive, not a congressional function. The money is already constitutionally allocated by congress.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh What? How do you figure? That is not what the 14th amendment says.

Amendment 14
Article 1
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Article 2
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Article 3
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Article 4 (this is the article you are referencing and it does not state what you are talking about, it is referencing the debts imposed for insurrection and rebellions).
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Article 5
The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.

Proposed 6/13/1866
Ratified 7/9/1868

“Open your eyes”

Since: Sep 09

Central Florida

#10 Jan 14, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
So if Obama follows the constitution and invokes the 14th amendment, will the GOPasaurs squeal that he's violating the consitution?
Bet on it!
He can't. Article 4 of Amendment 14 does not give him that authority. See above post and read article 4.

Since: Dec 07

Athens, TX

#11 Jan 14, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
So if Obama follows the constitution and invokes the 14th amendment, will the GOPasaurs squeal that he's violating the consitution?
Bet on it!
That is because he will be violating the constitution...

Laurence Tribe, a constitutional scholar at Harvard University, argues that only Congress has the authority to regulate U.S. debt. He said any presidential attempt to continue borrowing without congressional approval would therefore violate the constitution, and the Treasury Department agrees.

Since: Dec 07

Athens, TX

#12 Jan 14, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
NO CHOICE.
While he could take my advice, and cut all Federal spending and expenditures in districts of Congressmen who vote NO to paying the bills...
and he could do the silly 'platinum coin'....
and he could continue to negotiate with rocks...
I believe President Obamam has no choice, under his presidential oath, but to invoke the 14th Amendment. And order the debt ceiling raised. This is an executive, not a congressional function. The money is already constitutionally allocated by congress.
NO CHOICE
The wording in the Constitution defers authority to raise the U.S. debt limit to the president. It doesn’t say that. It says “the validity of the public debt shall not be questioned”. It could be just as valid to argue that whatever the congress decides, it can’t be questioned by the president or anyone else….as determined by congress. Same with taxes. The president does not have the authority to summarily raise taxes without congressional approval. Since when does this republic defer such things to a single individual?

Nobama is treading on eggshells and he knows it....apparently you don't.

Since: Dec 07

Athens, TX

#13 Jan 14, 2013
Kahoki wrote:
<quoted text>
He can't. Article 4 of Amendment 14 does not give him that authority. See above post and read article 4.
The left is about to discover that Bush DIDN'T cause the financal problems of the country. LOL
Robert

Lithia Springs, GA

#14 Jan 14, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
So if Obama follows the constitution and invokes the 14th amendment, will the GOPasaurs squeal that he's violating the consitution?
Bet on it!
No everyone will squeal, Reaching the national debt limit now over $16 trillion dollars does not mean that the federal government cannot pay the bills it has already racked up. It just means that it cannot borrow still more.

Federal individual and corporate income taxes, and excise taxes, are more than 6 times greater each year than the interest on the national debt. So if President Obama wants to focus on paying the bills we have already racked up, he doesn’t need to borrow still more to do that. That would only rack up still more bills.

Whats more there will be an economic reaction should Obama try something like that and it would not be pretty. Everyone would end up paying when bond markets refuse to recognize the new money because it was not authorized and decline to buy the bonds.
equote

Menard, TX

#15 Jan 14, 2013
Bluebonnets-Thistle wrote:
<quoted text>
The wording in the Constitution defers authority to raise the U.S. debt limit to the president. It doesn’t say that. It says “the validity of the public debt shall not be questioned”. It could be just as valid to argue that whatever the congress decides, it can’t be questioned by the president or anyone else….as determined by congress. Same with taxes. The president does not have the authority to summarily raise taxes without congressional approval. Since when does this republic defer such things to a single individual?
Nobama is treading on eggshells and he knows it....apparently you don't.
A causal reading of the constitution will confirm most of your analysis. The President can challenge an act (bill) of Congress by the Veto. Of course vetos can be overriden.
I have read that the debt must be paid, one way or another, but I'm not sure that is true. I suspect a default by the US would prompt other nations to abandon the US as the reserve currency and to refuse to buy Treasury Bonds. There is also the impact on domestic business and government bond holdings. The US might collapse as a coherent nation.

Ninthman

“Obama Shames the USA”

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#16 Jan 14, 2013
Obama never stops acting. He's a phony baloney macaroni.

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#17 Jan 14, 2013
Robert wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes there is a choice, If President Obama and the Democrats disagree with the House’s tax reform legislation, they can pass what they want through the Senate, where they still have a majority. The differences would then be resolved not behind closed doors in Obama’s White House, but by a House Senate Conference Committee. The debate would then reveal to the public where the two parties really stand, and the public can then judge which party’s policies are more likely to restore the American Dream and booming growth.
Already covered above, negitiate with rocks.

“Open your eyes”

Since: Sep 09

Central Florida

#18 Jan 14, 2013
Bluebonnets-Thistle wrote:
<quoted text>
The left is about to discover that Bush DIDN'T cause the financal problems of the country. LOL
No he didn't. Did he have a part in it? Absolutely, however, he did not cause it. The banks and the fake derivative scams is what caused.

It could be argued that Clinton caused it when Robert Rubin and Larry Summers got him to repeal the Glass Steagle Act, however, that was just another part of the collapse.

All the actions that government has taken from Nixon to Carter, to Reagan, to daddy Bush, to Clinton, to baby boy Bush, and Obama have put us where we are.

I would argue that the debts imposed upon the people is fraudulent as for the people did not approve of such debts. Meaning a fraudulent debt does not have to be repaid by the people they are imposing the debts upon through the payment of taxes.

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

#19 Jan 14, 2013
Kahoki wrote:
<quoted text>
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh What? How do you figure? That is not what the 14th amendment says.
Amendment 14
Article 4 (this is the article you are referencing and it does not state what you are talking about, it is referencing the debts imposed for insurrection and rebellions).
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Reread, but this time note the word <<< INCLUDING >>>

So,
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law,...shall not be questioned.

Stay sharp, have a coffee.

“Open your eyes”

Since: Sep 09

Central Florida

#20 Jan 14, 2013
Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law,...shall not be questioned.
That is not what it says. Your breaking apart a sentence and pulling out a specific part that you want it to say.

The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

So let's break this down.

"The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned."

This means that public debt that is approved by law. So the Congress has to pass a law and have the President sign the law. And including debt incurred for stop insurrections and rebellions, "shall not be questioned."

Now can the President increase the limit unilaterally? No. Congress has to create a law then send it to the President to get signed or vetoed. He cannot do it on his own. And if the Congress does not have a law, then debt can be questioned.

"But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void."

This sentence basically breaks down what happened during the civil war. The South's fight for independence, was being funded by the Bank of England and Bank of Germany. Since the South lost their fight for independence, the states that incurred the debt's to the bank of England and Germany are not held responsible to those individual states. And those debt are void.

So try again.

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