Why the 'Citizen Militia' Theory Is the Worst Pro-Gun Argument Ever

Jan 31, 2013 | Posted by: Mr_Bill | Full story: www.theatlantic.com

The notion that an individual right to bear arms guarantees the American people against government tyranny is of course an old one. Given its apparent validation in the Second Amendment of the Constitution itself, it's not surprising that the notion has survived in some way through to the 21st century. Given its defiance of history and common sense, though, what should be surprising is that it's survived to remain so widespread.

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let hate gooo

Nha Trang, Vietnam

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#1
Jan 31, 2013
 

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Bill_mr! the notion...;)
Churmudgeon

Mountain Home, AR

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#2
Jan 31, 2013
 

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No its the citizen miita that won the revliionary war The regular army under George Washinton had almost lost the war. Then the untrained backwoods milita with their kentucky rifles won the battle of kings mountian. That marked the turning point of the war.

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

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#3
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Churmudgeon wrote:
No its the citizen miita that won the revliionary war The regular army under George Washinton had almost lost the war. Then the untrained backwoods milita with their kentucky rifles won the battle of kings mountian. That marked the turning point of the war.
WOW, history revised, as we watch it!

No, cricket, Washington didn't 'almost lose the war.'
And the Continental Army won the war, with some help from the local milita, at times; and great help from the French Navy.

Since you are so ignorant, I shall give you a thumbnail:

* Washington's army poor quality, cannot win against superior British training, armament, and mobility.

* Washington gets some training for regular army from military Europeans in sympathy.

* British main strategy to split colonies at Hudson River fails, due to poor British generalship. This was the turning point of the war.

* Washington fights guerilla warfare, never winning, but reserving his army with strategic retreats. Militia participates at times.

* Finally, General Cornwallis made a critical mistake, and Washingtom was waiting and ready. Cornwallis went adventuring in Virginia, and Washington, knowing the French fleet could cut out the British fleet from reenforcing or evacuating Cornwlllis; Cut him off into the peninsula.

* Admiral De Grasse, of the French Navy, kept the British fleet off; and after a solid bombardment to soften up the British lines, and a rush to clear the outer defenses; Cornwallis was defeated by Washington's regular Continental soldiers and General Rochambeau's French Regulay armies.

* General George Washington played the brilliant spider, and finly caught the fly.

REMEMBER HIM, this month, and eat a slice of CHERRY PIE.
REMEMBER too, General Rochambeau, and his valient French troops.
Churmudgeon

Mountain Home, AR

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#4
Feb 1, 2013
 
The Battle of Kings Mountain lasted 65 minutes.] The Loyalists suffered 290 killed, 163 wounded, and taken prisoner. The Patriot militia suffered 29killed and 58 wounded. The Patriots had to move out quickly for fear that Cornwallis would advance to meet them. Loyalist prisoners well enough to walk were herded to camps several miles from the battlefield. The dead were buried in shallow graves and wounded were left on the field. Ferguson's corpse was later reported to have been mangled and wrapped in oxhide before burial Both victors and vanquished came near to starvation on the march due to a lack of supplies in the hastily organized Patriot army.
On October 14, the retreating Patriot force held drumhead courtmartials of various Loyalists on various charges (treason, desertion from Patriot militias, incitement of Indian rebellion). Passing through the Sunshine community in what is now Rutherford County, N.C., the retreat halted, perhaps not coincidentally on the property of the Biggerstaff family. Aaron Biggerstaff, a Loyalist, had fought in the battle and been mortally wounded. His brother Benjamin was a Patriot and was being held as a prisoner of war on a British ship docked at Charleston, S.C. Their cousin John Moore was the Loyalist commander at the earlier Battle of Ramsour's Mill (modern Lincolnton, N.C.), in which many of the same troops had participated on both sides. While stopped on the Biggerstaff land, 36 Loyalist prisoners, many of whom were recognized by several Patriots whom previously fought alongside and later changed sides, were convicted and nine were hanged before Isaac Shelby brought an end to the proceedings. His decision to halt the proceedings came after an impassioned plea for mercy from one of the Biggerstaff women, although accounts vary as to whether it was Martha Biggerstaff, Aaron's wife, or Mary Biggerstaff. As the Patriot army dispersed, all but 130 Loyalist prisoners escaped over the next few days before the column finally reached camp at Salem, North Carolina; they were able to escape having been moved through wooded areas in a single line.
Kings Mountain was a pivotal moment in the history of the American Revolution. Coming after a series of disasters and humiliations in the Carolinas—the fall of Charleston and capture of the American army there, the destruction of another American army at the Battle of Camden, the Waxhaws Massacre—the surprising, decisive victory at Kings Mountain was a great boost to Patriot morale. The Tories of the Carolina Back Country were broken as a military force. Additionally, the destruction of Ferguson's command and the looming threat of Patriot militia in the mountains caused Lord Cornwallis to cancel his plans to invade North Carolina; he instead evacuated Charlotte and retreated to South Carolina. He would not return to North Carolina until early 1781, when he was chasing Nathanael Greene after the Americans had dealt British arms another devastating defeat at the Battle of Cowpens.
In The Winning of the West, Theodore Roosevelt wrote of Kings Mountain, "This brilliant victory marked the turning point of the American Revolution." Thomas Jefferson called it, "The turn of the tide of success." Herbert Hoover's address at Kings Mountain said, "This is a place of inspiring memories. Here less than a thousand men, inspired by the urge of freedom, defeated a superior force intrenched in this strategic position. This small band of Patriots turned back a dangerous invasion well designed to separate and dismember the united Colonies. It was a little army and a little battle, but it was of mighty portent. History has done scant justice to its significance, which rightly should place it beside Lexington, Bunker Hill, Trenton and Yorktown." In 1931, the Congress of the United States created the Kings Mountain National Military Park on the site of the battle. The park headquarters is in Blacksburg, South Carolina, and hosts hundreds of thousands of people each year.
Churmudgeon

Mountain Home, AR

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#5
Feb 1, 2013
 
google the battle for the correct history.
Eleanor

Buffalo Grove, IL

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#6
Feb 1, 2013
 

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All one needs to do is to take a look around the world.

When the Syrian people decided to turn against the government, having a gun to protect oneself from either the rebels OR government soldiers could be a matter of life or death.

The movie about the war in Rhowanda certainly hightened my awareness about the importance of being armed. People turning against each other, murdering entire neighborhoods was horrific.

The economic downturn in this country, along with the government's INABILITY to take care of EVERYONE may reach a tipping point, with riots in the street (much like Greece).

God help us IF it does. And while people pray to their God, they'll keep their guns loaded and their ammo dry!!!

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

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#7
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Eleanor wrote:
All one needs to do is to take a look around the world.
When the Syrian people decided to turn against the government, having a gun to protect oneself from either the rebels OR government soldiers could be a matter of life or death.
The movie about the war in Rhowanda certainly hightened my awareness about the importance of being armed. People turning against each other, murdering entire neighborhoods was horrific.
The economic downturn in this country, along with the government's INABILITY to take care of EVERYONE may reach a tipping point, with riots in the street (much like Greece).
God help us IF it does. And while people pray to their God, they'll keep their guns loaded and their ammo dry!!!
There is nothing wrong at all with you having a gun to hunt, to sport, or to defend yourself.

The problem is the disposition of so many guns into the hands of crazies and criminals.

That is why gun owners must be held responsible for all gun crimes committed with their guns, and indicted as co-conspirators.
And, liable to lawsuit.

If your gun isn' t passed on to a criminal you have no problem; but it sure will make you more responsible.

“Denny Crain”

Since: Jan 11

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#9
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Churmudgeon wrote:
google the battle for the correct history.
Thanks for your post. Let me recommend a good book for you "Oliver Wiswell" The revolution told from the Tory point of view.

“Open your eyes”

Since: Sep 09

Central Florida

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#10
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Has anyone even contemplated the question why government would want restrictions on the people, whether firearms, commodities, services, etc.?

I would argue that is due to control.

The movie "A Bug's Life" summed this up perfectly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch...
Robert

Douglasville, GA

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#11
Feb 1, 2013
 

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A more recent use of firearms against a wayward government than the civil war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Athens... (1946)
Dickweed

Santa Rosa Beach, FL

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#12
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Churmudgeon wrote:
No its the citizen miita that won the revliionary war The regular army under George Washinton had almost lost the war. Then the untrained backwoods milita with their kentucky rifles won the battle of kings mountian. That marked the turning point of the war.
And what chance would a civilian militia have against a modern army in modern times??? NONE
No matter how well armed the people are, an attacking army, or our own army in the streets for some reason the armed people will be masacred.
Red Dawn is a great movie (the old one with Swazye) but it is just a movie, and that particular invasion scheme would not stand a chance, so being armed would not fight off an invading horde. We would need our real army to fight off such an invasion.

Lately all armed citizens are capable of doing is killing children.
Not such a big help to the security of the American way of life.

“Obama Shames the USA”

Since: Apr 09

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Feb 1, 2013
 

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Tell that to the Jews in Nazi Germany.
Dickweed

Santa Rosa Beach, FL

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#14
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Ninthman wrote:
Tell that to the Jews in Nazi Germany.
Can't they are dead.
And just so you know, guns were not readily availible in germany before the Nazi's. Ther were hunting rifles and the ike and I am quite sure some Jews did fire on the Nazi's with their weapons. So even if it was legal for the Jew of 1940s Germany to own guns, there were not many to own. And in Poland, and some of the other European countries Germany invaded, the civians did fight back. Some German Jews did fight back. but armed civilians are no match for a modern army.
And I'm quite sure if the Nazi's came into an armed Jewish Ghetto with SS troops, tanks, and infantry, just as many Jews would have died, if not more.
Even if the Jews had the weapons to fight back, the Nazi's had the power to kill all of them, even if they shot back.

Comparing Nazi Germany to what we are experiencing today is fairly far fetched. I know this president scares the crap out of you because he is a Kenyan born, muslim, facist, commy, liberal, but Nazi Germany is still a pretty way out comparison.

“Obama Shames the USA”

Since: Apr 09

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#15
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Dickweed wrote:
<quoted text>
Can't they are dead.
And just so you know, guns were not readily availible in germany before the Nazi's. Ther were hunting rifles and the ike and I am quite sure some Jews did fire on the Nazi's with their weapons. So even if it was legal for the Jew of 1940s Germany to own guns, there were not many to own. And in Poland, and some of the other European countries Germany invaded, the civians did fight back. Some German Jews did fight back. but armed civilians are no match for a modern army.
And I'm quite sure if the Nazi's came into an armed Jewish Ghetto with SS troops, tanks, and infantry, just as many Jews would have died, if not more.
Even if the Jews had the weapons to fight back, the Nazi's had the power to kill all of them, even if they shot back.
Comparing Nazi Germany to what we are experiencing today is fairly far fetched. I know this president scares the crap out of you because he is a Kenyan born, muslim, facist, commy, liberal, but Nazi Germany is still a pretty way out comparison.
Christ Almighty. Don't you even have an inkling as to what happened to the Jews and their guns under Hitler and Himmel?
.
CLEVER GLOBO-COMMUNISTS & THEIR USEFUL LIBERAL IDIOTS
Dickweed

Santa Rosa Beach, FL

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#16
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Ninthman wrote:
<quoted text>Christ Almighty. Don't you even have an inkling as to what happened to the Jews and their guns under Hitler and Himmel?
.
CLEVER GLOBO-COMMUNISTS & THEIR USEFUL CONSERVATIVE IDIOTS
Yes as a matter of fact I do.
Explain to me how if every Jew had a gun how they would have fought off the Nazi's and prevented the Holocaust.
In your reply please bear in mind the difference in the Nazi war machine and the weapons that would have been availible to the civilians of Germany even before the Nazi's took over.
Also point out how a group of civilians would have been able to fight off a batallion of Nazi's with Air support, tank support, mortar support, and far far sperior weaponry.
Also, point out how if a group of armed Jews did fight off the first attempt to be hauled off by the Nazi's, how they would fend off the next attempts?
While you are at it....
Mention how you would fight off the tyranny of our government with an AR15 if they sent armed troops into your town or home.
Most armed Americans who tried to fight off even the police from entering their home agaist their will with their arsenal of weapons ended up dead. And please point out even 1 instance where armed civilians fought off the police or the government and ended up not being killed in the process. I would urge you to use events from this century or the last.
The last time organized armed militia rose up against the tyrrany of the Federal government was called the Civil War. Did the militia win?

So no. There is absolutely no way in hell armed Jews would have fought off the Nazis and prevented the holocaust.
Your argument, although thought provoking, is completely moot to the events and circumstances in our country today.

Since: Jul 07

Newport News, VA

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Feb 1, 2013
 

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure."

Tom Jefferson

“It's a Brand New Day”

Since: Feb 06

New Rochelle

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#18
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Dickweed wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes as a matter of fact I do.
Explain to me how if every Jew had a gun how they would have fought off the Nazi's and prevented the Holocaust.
In your reply please bear in mind the difference in the Nazi war machine and the weapons that would have been availible to the civilians of Germany even before the Nazi's took over.
Also point out how a group of civilians would have been able to fight off a batallion of Nazi's with Air support, tank support, mortar support, and far far sperior weaponry.
Also, point out how if a group of armed Jews did fight off the first attempt to be hauled off by the Nazi's, how they would fend off the next attempts?
While you are at it....
Mention how you would fight off the tyranny of our government with an AR15 if they sent armed troops into your town or home.
Most armed Americans who tried to fight off even the police from entering their home agaist their will with their arsenal of weapons ended up dead. And please point out even 1 instance where armed civilians fought off the police or the government and ended up not being killed in the process. I would urge you to use events from this century or the last.
The last time organized armed militia rose up against the tyrrany of the Federal government was called the Civil War. Did the militia win?
So no. There is absolutely no way in hell armed Jews would have fought off the Nazis and prevented the holocaust.
Your argument, although thought provoking, is completely moot to the events and circumstances in our country today.
You are attempting to talk sense to a robo-troll. Good luck with that.
Duckweed

Santa Rosa Beach, FL

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#19
Feb 1, 2013
 

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Mr_Bill wrote:
<quoted text>
You are attempting to talk sense to a robo-troll. Good luck with that.
I know. Loosing battle.
Churmudgeon

Mountain Home, AR

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#20
Feb 2, 2013
 
Denny CranesPlace wrote:
<quoted text>Thanks for your post. Let me recommend a good book for you "Oliver Wiswell" The revolution told from the Tory point of view.
Thanks! Actually one of My ancestors was a Tory. He was rewarded for his loalty to the crown with a large land grant and political appointment in Canada. Those colonist where terrorist. Dumping the Tea and tarring & feathering the Tax man are indeed terrorist acts. One of the ancestors fought on the Winning side in both the revolitionary war and the war of 1812. He recieved a land grant of 40 almost worthless rocky land in arkansas. There are always two sides to every issue.

“Constitutionist/ SAF”

Since: Mar 08

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#22
Feb 2, 2013
 
RealWorld wrote:
Frightwing patriots is the new American Taliban. You don't like the election results by the majority so you plan to over throw the government. You are all Anti-Americans and should be hung to death for Treason.
We're all armed with AK's and AR's, so that's why your communist Govt can't hang us for treason, communist.

I own an AK, so tell your masters I hate Govt ...Topix employees will tell them where I post from.

North Korean civilians need AK's and to be allowed to buy thousands of rounds of ammo ONLINE !

http://centerfiresystems.com/rifle-c93.aspx

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