Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Oct 12, 2011 Full story: CNN 32,004

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21701 Mar 12, 2013
Father overtime wrote:
<quoted text>
140 temples and counting = winning.
83000 missionaries = winning.
Suckering people into a cult is not winning, it is just fooling them. 12 million compare to 2 billion is a drop in the bucket. Less than 1%. That is losing.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21702 Mar 12, 2013
THE MAIL TRUCK IS COMING wrote:
And the lady from the thread here helped me report you to them, by sending me a database of about 20 times you spoke of some lady you don't know,
like you're unstoppable evil in a human body.
You're not.
As we're all seeing in SUPER SLOW MOTION
You helped yourself? HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21703 Mar 12, 2013
EZEKIEL 37_15-27 wrote:
http://www.tiferes.com/image/c ache/data/Torah%20Roller/Torah %20Roller%20H-23-P71L-600x600. jpg
The WRITING on THIS STICK (ets) is nearly IDENTICAL
to what the Lord told Ezekiel WRITE on HIS two.
Sticks are not books.

Ezekiel 2:9-10 (NASB)
9 Then I looked, and behold, a hand was extended to me; and lo, a scroll was in it. 10 When He spread it out before me, it was written on the front and back, and written on it were lamentations, mourning and woe.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21704 Mar 12, 2013
THE MAIL TRUCK IS COMING wrote:
<quoted text>
You keep a list of how many exclamation points and LOLs you think stops the mail from reaching the people whose wife and mother you speak of like you know her.
I put two stamps on and put YOUR return address on the envelope.
So, like a good Mormon, you lie and deceive in real life? I knew that already when you pretended you were leaving the church:

Oct 7, 12
Dear Dana Robertson
Imagine my shock & horror to discover I am descended from Don Carlos Smith, and ALL the murders! I am proud his wife was Ca's poet laurette (I love to write) and would love to visit her statue & HAVE Her POEMS!
I WILL NO LONGER vote for Romney! Both are Islam-Mosem-Gay supporters!
I would like your help and advice! I DID Keep mormon belief in SELF PRESERVATION (tho never really served the mormons, saved at 10 yrs old). We are determined our family will LIVE awhile!(despite what IS SURELY COMING!)
Hoping for encoureagement and counsel. SO CONFUSED!
In Jesus Christ,
Carol Slutton.

LOL!!!

The church is so true, Carol will lie anyway she can to protect it! LOL!!!!!!!!!!

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21705 Mar 12, 2013
EZEKIAL 37_15-27 wrote:
<quoted text>
the WORD in the HEBREW that ALMOST ALL THE BIBLE VERSIONS on EARTH
translate as *STICKS*
is ETZ.
The NAME for the STICKS
used to ROLL a SCROLL
is **ETZ**
"....The term Etz Chaim,(plural: Atzei Chaim), is also used to describe each of THE WOODEN POLES TO WHICH THE PARCHMENT of a Sefer TORAH are ATTACHED..."
=====
What a disingenuous, lying, sociopathic pedo-billy HICK you turn out to be.
For YEARS you've been here denying that the STICKS of a SCRIPTURE SCROLL are named "ETZ"
when all it took was FIFTEEN SECONDS' checking on your
LYING.
NOT ONLY is the STICK a SCROLL of SCRIPTURE
is WRITTEN on, called
an ETS
They WRITE ON THE STICK, inSCRIPTIOns
ALONG the LINES of:
"For BARUCH EPSTEIN and ALL HIS DESCENDENTS."
This is HOW they are DONE
=====
http://www.tiferes.com/index.php ...
=====
*** GO SEE WHAT THEY OFFER AS A TYPICAL INSCRIPTION to PUT ON YOUR **ETS** for a SCRIPTURE SCROLL.***
The TYPICAL INSCRIPTION,
ONE SEES
is WORD for WORD, what the LORD told EZEKIEL to WRITE on HIS 2 sets of "ets"
And when they talk about a book, they us the Hebrew word for "book" Megillat.

http://www.tiferes.com/index.php...

Mormonism fails again!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21706 Mar 12, 2013
Mormonism, it is the opposite of the Durcell bunny, it keeps, failing, failing, and failing.... LOL!!!!!!!!!!
GOOGLE ATZEI CHAIM

Yuba City, CA

#21707 Mar 12, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Sticks are not books.
Ezekiel 2:9-10 (NASB)
9 Then I looked, and behold, a hand was extended to me; and lo, a scroll was in it. 10 When He spread it out before me, it was written on the front and back, and written on it were lamentations, mourning and woe.
CHANGING THE SUBJECT from YOU BEING CAUGHT LYING,
isn't NOT
getting CAUGHT.
LYING. B.E.C.A.U.S.E. you C.A.N.
====
[QUOTE =Dana Robertson]
There has never been a book written on a "stick". If they had meant "scrolls" they would have said "scrolls". They are two completely different Hebrew words.[/QUOTE]
the WORD in the HEBREW that ALMOST ALL THE BIBLE VERSIONS on EARTH
translate as *STICKS*
is ETZ.
The NAME for the STICKS
used to ROLL a SCROLL
is **ETZ**
GOOGLE ETZ CHAIM and watch the pages pop up saying
"WOODEN SCROLL ROLLERS"
"...The term Etz Chaim,, is also used to describe each of THE WOODEN POLES TO WHICH THE PARCHMENT of a Sefer TORAH are ATTACHED."
=====
For YEARS you've been here denying that the STICKS of a SCROLL are named "ETZ"
LYING.
B.E.C.A.U.S.E. you C.A.N.
Now TELL the people of this forum that the
NAME
of the STICKS upon which a SCROLL is ROLLED,
isn't "ETS CHAIM" or "ATZEI-CHAIM" again.
http://tinyurl.com/ATZEI-CHAIM
GOOGLE ATZEI CHAIM

Yuba City, CA

#21708 Mar 12, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
And when they talk about a book, they us the Hebrew word for "book" Megillat.
http://www.tiferes.com/index.php...
Mormonism fails again!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!
WHEN they TALK ABOUT INSCRIBING the STICK of a SET of FAMILY SCRIPTURES in JUDAISM

IT is a BIG DEAL with an EXTENSIVE LAW around it. It's a YEAR AND A HALF'S WORK for ONE MAN who INSCRIBES a THIRD of a MILLION CHARACTERS without a SINGLE DAMAGED CHARACTER. If one is DAMAGED beyond scraping the ink off that PAGE of PARCHMENT MUST be UNSEWN and THROWN away.

It's EXTREMELY exacting and PRECIOUS work for them.

INSCRIBING "TO JUDAH"
INSCRIBING "TO JOSEPH"

IS the STANDARD METHOD for DEDICATING a SET of SCRIPTURES to someone.

He said "INSCRIBE the STICK". The E.T.S. is the WORD.

The NAME of THE STICK is an ETS

and they INSCRIBE THEM TYPICALLY like THIS:

http://www.tiferes.com/image/cache/data/Torah...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21709 Mar 12, 2013
Carol can't help but be a liar and a deceiver, she belongs to a church well known for such practices as part of it's regular mode of operations:

1. The official version of the First Vision by Joseph Smith, fashioned in 1838, nearly 20 years after the event, was unknown to church members until published in 1842. It evolved after years of creative editing. It describes a more spectacular and miraculous event than earlier versions of the same event. The 1832 account is the original handwritten version and lacks the spectacular claims. The early version does not mention God the Father as one who appeared to Smith, or the religious excitement that motivated Smith to pray, persecution by unbelievers, being attacked by the devil, being told not to join any apostate Christian Churches by Jesus; and he was not called to restore a church and serve as its prophet in the earliest version. The 1832 "vision" resembles a common Christian epiphany where he imagined Jesus forgiving his sins. Church leaders suppressed the contradictory and less impressive version for over a century.(James B. Allen, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn 1966, pages 29-45. See also Fawn Brodie, No Man Knows My History, pp.24-25; and The Changing World of Mormonism, pp. 148-166)

2. The LDS church consistently describes in sermons and paintings, the visitation of an angel named Moroni (pronounced More-oh-nye) to Joseph Smith on September 21, 1823. Moroni is pictured floating above Joseph or next to his bed, alone in his bedroom. The pictures do not accurately portray Joseph's five brothers that slept in the same room with him. A restored Smith house is used for LDS tours showing the small room and only two beds for six brothers. Nothing resembling the actual sleeping arrangement is hinted at in the church's official literature and pictorial recreations of the scene. It would seem inconceivable to most investigators (and perhaps many members) that Joseph's brothers sleeping in the same room and bed would not have been awakened by the events as described by Joseph. The inaccurate depictions and lesson manuals are an attempt to make the event seem more believable.

3. The LDS Church permits members and others to believe that the History of the Church was written by Joseph Smith. Smith dictated the history of the church to a scribe but was killed before completing the project. The Joseph Smith History was completed in August 1856 by historians who wrote it as if it was written by Joseph. Brigham Young required the historians to write it that way. Sixty percent of the history was written after his death. The church consciously led members believe that the official history was written by Joseph Smith.(Brigham Young University Studies, Summer 1971, pp.466, 469, 470, 472). In the middle of the 20th century after the deception was pointed out by critics, the church admitted it.

4. When something in the official History of the Church proved embarrassing, such as the Kinderhook Plates hoax, where Joseph was tricked by pranksters who created fake metal plates that Joseph claimed were authentic, ancient Egyptian plates; the practice was/is for LDS apologists to claim that a scribe or someone else must have written the embarrassing section instead of Joseph Smith himself. They claim therefore that the embarrassing episode cannot be trusted. This contradicts their claims that Smith’s revelations, are authentic, though written by scribes.(Jerald and Sandra Tanner, Shadow or Reality? Chapter 7, "Changes in the Joseph Smith History," pages 126-142)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21710 Mar 12, 2013
5. The famous Rocky Mountain Prophecy (the prediction that Salt Lake would be the place the saints would settle after leaving Nauvoo, Illinois) was a later addition to the official church history and not predicted by Joseph Smith. Despite the fact it is not true; the church presented it as such for more than a century. The 'Rocky Mountain Prophecy' was added after the Mormons arrived in Utah.(The Changing World of Mormonism, p. 406)

6. A fundamental change is the name of the angel who, it was claimed, appeared in vision in Joseph Smith's bedroom. In the history as it was first published by Joseph Smith, we learn that the angel's name was Nephi: "He called me by name and said ... that his name was Nephi" (Times and Seasons, vol. 3, p.753). "In modern printings of the History of the Church, the name was changed to "Moroni":(History of the Church, vol. 1, p.11).

"The original handwritten manuscript shows that the name was originally written as "Nephi," but that someone at a later date wrote the word "Moroni" above the line (see photograph in Mormonism-Shadow or Reality? p.136).The book Falsification of Joseph Smith's History, page 13, authors demonstrated that this change was made after Joseph Smith's death. An examination of the duplicate copy of the handwritten manuscript, Book A-2, provides additional evidence that the change was not made during Joseph Smith's lifetime. This manuscript was not begun until about a year after Smith's death. Like the other manuscript (Book A-1), it has the name "Nephi" with the name "Moroni" interpolated above the line.

"It is interesting to note that Joseph Smith lived for two years after the name "Nephi" was printed in the church’s official publication Times and Seasons, and never published a retraction or correction. In August, 1842, the Millennial Star, published by the church in England, also printed Joseph Smith's story stating that the angel's name was "Nephi" (see Millennial Star, vol. 3, p.53). On page 71 of the same volume it reads that the message of the angel Nephi ... opened a new dispensation to man...." "The name was also published in the 1851 edition of the Pearl of Great Price as "Nephi." Walter L. Whipple, in his thesis written at BYU, stated that Orson Pratt "published The Pearl of Great Price in 1878, and removed the name of Nephi from the text entirely and inserted the name Moroni in its place (reprinted in The Changing World of Mormonism, Chapter 13, pages 409-410).

7. Official Mormon histories have omitted references to Joseph Smith's drinking and use of tobacco to create a more favorable impression of their prophet, who if living today (2007) would be unable to pass a worthiness interview and earn a temple recommend in the church he founded.(Changing World of Mormonism, pages 413-414 and Chapter 18 of the same online book). "Joseph tested the Saints to make sure their testimonies were of his religion and not of him as a personable leader. Amasa Lyman, of the First presidency, related:'Joseph Smith tried the faith of the Saints many times by his peculiarities. At one time, he had preached a powerful sermon on the Word of Wisdom, and immediately thereafter, he rode through the streets of Nauvoo smoking a cigar. Some of the brethren were tried as was Abraham of old'" ("Joseph Smith as an Administrator," Master's Thesis, Brigham Young University, May 1969, p.161. Quotation found in The Changing World of Mormonism, page 31).

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21711 Mar 12, 2013
8. Leonard Arrington, the official LDS Church Historian for nearly a decade (1972-1982) lamented the suppression of truthful Mormon history in favor of a faith promoting version. Six years previous to his appointment as church historian, Dr. Arrington wrote: "it is unfortunate for the cause of Mormon history that the Church Historian's Library, which is in the possession of virtually all of the diaries of leading Mormons, has not seen fit to publish these diaries or to permit qualified historians to use them without restriction." (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought (Spring 1966, p.26). Leonard Arrington was demoted in 1982 transferred from the church historians office to BYU because of his refreshing honesty; he was a threat to the faith promoting history the church insisted he support (Deseret News, Church Section, July 5, 1980; http://library.usu.edu/Specol/manuscript/Arri... ). The church does not report accurate unflattering historical facts about its origins and leaders to the membership or the world, unless forced to by published disclosures of deception.

9. Joseph Smith claimed that God revealed truth directly to him. He declared that God, Jesus and angels appeared in person. Sometimes they spoke in an audible voice, and sometimes they spoke in a quiet voice or feeling in his mind and heart - D&C 8:2; 9:7-9. He made arrangements to publish a collection of revealed truths in the Book of Commandments but offended Missourians who destroyed the printing press in 1833 before the venture was completed. A few copies were saved. Two years later he published another version with original revelations revised and more revelations added and called it the Doctrine and Covenants. Apologists claim that added material was only to make the revelation seem clearer to the reader.(Melvin J. Petersen "A Study of the Nature of and Significance of the Changes in the Revelations as Found in a Comparison of the Book of Commandments and Subsequent Editions of the Doctrine and Covenants," Master's thesis, BYU, 1955, typed copy, p.147). Those close to Joseph and the process of revising the “revelations” make a different claim.

David Whitmer, a close associate of Smith's, was perhaps the most vocal opponent to the revisions; many that contradicted earlier revelations. He considered the original revelations to be God-inspired. He questioned the revised revelations which coincidentally granted all power and authority to Smith.(Letter written by David Whitmer, published in the Saints' Herald, February 5, 1887). Current LDS members are unaware of the significant revisions. They do not know that the meaning of some of the "revelations" was reversed. David Whitmer and others raise the question of whether Joseph Smith received revelations from God or whether they originated in his own mind. If Mormons continue to insist that JS was inspired by God, critics might ask, "Which God?- the one who revealed the first revelations, or the one who revealed the later ones that contradicted the first?" (David Whitmer see An Address To All Believers in Christ. Also The Changing World of Mormonism, online book,Chapter 3, http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/changech3.htm )

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21712 Mar 12, 2013
10. Joseph made a career of retrofitting earlier revelations to make it appear as if church doctrines and practices were revealed by God incrementally, logically and sequentially, as described by the official history of the LDS church. He and apologists refer to this process of revising God's written word as continuing revelation. Others call it theological innovation, revelations of convenience, or creative imagination. Smith also made contradictory revisions to the original doctrines in the Book of Mormon, as his theological views evolved.(1 Nephi 3 pages 25, 26, 32 in the 1830 [original] version. Compare changes to current BofM version in 1 Nephi 11: 18, 21, 23, 40)

11. Joseph Smith created the Mormon Priesthood after organizing the church, but official church lesson materials do not include these troubling facts. His priesthood innovations were an extension of the practice of revising revelations to match his evolving theological ideas. La Mar Peterson explained, "The important details that are missing from the "full history" [of priesthood restoration] of 1834 are likewise missing from the Book of Commandments in 1833. The student would expect to find all the particulars of the Restoration in this first treasured set of 65 revelations, the dates of which encompassed the bestowals of the two Priesthoods, but they are conspicuously absent.... The notable revelations on Priesthood in the Doctrine and Covenants, Sections 2 and 13, are missing, and Chapter 28 gives no hint of the Restoration which, if actual, had been known for four years."

"More than four hundred words were added to this revelation [on priesthood] of August 1829 (Section 27 of the Doctrine and Covenants). The new material added the names of heavenly visitors and two separate ordinations. The Book of Commandments listed the duties of Elders, Priests, Teachers, and Deacons and refers to Joseph's apostolic calling but there is no mention of Melchizedek Priesthood, High Priesthood, Seventies, High Priests, nor High Councilors. These words were later inserted into the revelation on Church organization and government of April, 1830, making it appear that they were known at that date. But they do not appear in the original, Chapter 24 of the Book of Commandments three years later. Similar interpolations were made in the revelations known as Sections 42 and 68" (Problems In Mormon Text, by LaMar Petersen, pp.7-8. See also Gregory A. Prince, Power on High: The Development of the Mormon Priesthood. Signature Books, 1995. D. Michael Quinn, Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, Chapter 1, "The Evolution of Authority." The Changing Story of Mormonism, Chapter 16).

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21713 Mar 12, 2013
12. Mormons' official publications remove critical references to Joseph Smith's activities as a con man. Documents discovered in 1971 by Dr. Wesley Walters in Norwich, New York, verify that Joseph Smith was a "glass looker" and that he was arrested, tried and found guilty by a justice of the peace in Bainbridge, New York, in 1826 for this criminal activity.

LDS historian Dr. Francis W. Kirkham, refused to believe that Smith was a disreputable con man, who bilked people out of money with promises to find buried treasure through the use of a peep stone in a hat. He wrote, "if such a court record confession could be identified and proved, then it follows that his believers must deny his claimed divine guidance which led them to follow him.... How could he be a prophet of God, the leader of the Restored Church to these tens of thousands, if he had been the superstitious fraud which 'the pages from a book' declared he confessed to be?(A New Witness for Christ in America, vol. 1, pp.385-87 and pp.486-87; and The Changing World of Mormonism, Chapter 4, "Joseph Smith and Money Digging. See also Shadow or Reality? pp 35-36).

Hugh Nibley, famous dissembling LDS apologist also stated, "...if this court record is authentic it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith." Dr. Nibley's book also states that if the authenticity of the court record could be established it would be "the most devastating blow to Smith ever delivered" (Hugh Nibley, The Mythmakers p. 142. See also The Changing World of Mormonism, Chapter 4, "Joseph Smith and Money Digging").

In the 1826 court record Joseph Smith confessed that "for three years" prior to 1826 he had used a magic stone placed in his hat to find treasures or lost property.

Mormon histories insist that a heavenly messenger revealed the presence of gold plates on September 21, 1823 to an innocent Joseph Smith, at the same time he was actually conning overly optimistic treasure seekers out of their money. Smith also swore that gold plates were buried in a hill near his Palmyra, New York home. He continued these deceptive practices for at least three of the four years after God was supposedly preparing him to receive the gold plates. According to apologists Kirkham and Nibley, these facts completely undermine the credibility of Mormonism's first prophet and founder.(Dan Vogel, Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet, Signature Books, 2004, pp. 80-86)

13. Official church histories refuse to supply the details of Smith's deception or the court records convicting him of glass looking. Church leaders insist that "some [historical] truths are not very useful" and they aggressively prevent attempts to publish a full and truthful history of Mormonism’s actual origins.(Boyd K. Packer, "The Mantle is Far, Far Greater Than the Intellect", 1981, BYU Studies, Vol. 21, No. 3, pp. 259-271)

14. LDS Historians are threatened and sometimes excommunicated if they publish an objective history rather than a faith promoting version (if they are employed for the church). Packer cited above, referred to objective histories of Mormonism as "disease germs." Most ethical historians regard deliberately inaccurate histories to be disease germs instead.(Ostling, Richard and Joan. Mormon America. pp. 351–370. One Nation Under Gods, Richard Abanes, p.417-419. See also Grant Palmer and http://www.i4m.com/think/grant_palmer.htm )

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21714 Mar 12, 2013
15. Joseph Smith claimed that he discovered gold plates with strange engravings, and special spectacles called "Interpreters." The LDS Church teaches members and investigators that he found a Urim and Thummim ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim ) used to translate the golden plates. This claim is not true.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, the editor of the RLDS Saints' Herald, asked David Whitmer if Joseph Smith had used his peep stone to translate the plates. Whitmer, who offered his home to Smith and acted as a scribe for part of the translation of the Book of Mormon, replied that Smith gave the Interpreters back to an angel and used a peep stone or "Seers Stone" to translate the Book of Mormon; one that he had found while digging a well. It was an ordinary rock but Smith claimed it gave him the ability to see buried treasure,(The Changing World of Mormonism, pp. 80-83)

Martin Harris, who also acted as a scribe, lost the first 116 pages of the Book of Mormon translation. He confirmed that Smith testified that the angel Moroni took back both the plates and the Interpreters. He claimed that the angel later returned the gold plates, but not the Interpreters. Harris confirmed that Smith stared at a rock placed in a hat to produce the present-day Book of Mormon.( http://mit.irr.org/translation-or-divination ) To see actual photographs of Smith's favorite rocks, see pages 324-325 of D. Michael Quinn, Early Mormonism and the Magic World View, Revised and Enlarged, Signature Books, SLC, 1998.)

16. William W. Phelps first suggested in 1833 that perhaps the seer stones were the Urim and Thummim of the Old Testament (The Evening and Morning Star , Jan. 1833). This lent more credibility to Smith's story. Historians for the church rewrote the historical accounts to make it appear that from the beginning the Interpreters or Smith's peep stone was referred to as the Urim and Thummim. This is more tasteful in the minds of some than referring to the instruments used to translate the Book of Mormon as "the peep stone Joseph found while digging a well." (The Changing World of Mormonism, pp. 80-83. See also comment by BH Roberts in Comprehensive History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 1, page 129)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21715 Mar 12, 2013
17. Official Mormon histories are not forthcoming about the statements by the three and eight witnesses respectively, who claim to have seen Smith's gold plates and handled them. The faith promoting histories do not inform investigators or members that their experience was one that took place in their imaginations or as they called it, "spiritual eyes," "eyes of our understanding," "a supernatural vision," or "visions of the mind."

Martin Harris (one of the 3 witnesses) testified publicly on March 25, 1838 that none of the signatories to the Book of Mormon saw or handled the actual physical plates." He also indicated that Joseph prepared an affidavit beforehand and asked the witnesses to sign it. But because they had not seen a physical object, only a vision of them, some balked. They were finally persuaded by Joseph to sign.

David Whitmer also told Zenas Gurley Jr. on January 14, 1885 when asked if the witnesses actually touched "the real metal," "We did not." The witnesses handled "the plates" in a vision only, according to Whitmer. Such is the power of imagination.(Grant Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Chapter 6) There are other significant problems with the story of the 3 and 8 witnesses described by Palmer, for those interested in reading more.

18. The eight witnesses did not all imagine seeing the plates or angel at the same time as the church leads people to believe. The plates were imagined in two groups of four, not all 8 together as popularized in church paintings.(Deseret Evening News, 6 August 1878, Letter to the editor from P. Wilhelm Poulson, M.D., typed transcript, p. 2)

Only David Whitmer and perhaps Oliver Cowdery imagined the angel together. Martin Harris removed himself from the group and did not imagine seeing the angel until some three days later.(Grant Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins, Chapter 6. Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71) http://www.exmormon.org/file9.htm )

19. The LDS Church misrepresents the method by which Joseph Smith authored the Book of Mormon. Quite unlike the explanations and images offered to members in official church publications, Joseph Smith never had gold plates in view when "translating," nor did he use an Old Testament instrument called the Urim and Thummim.(The Changing World of Mormonism, pp. 84-85)

20. Smith's "translation" method was the same he used to con people into believing he could locate subterranean treasure. He put his favorite magic rock in a hat, pulled the hat over his face, and rested his elbows on his knees, to read the English words and sentences that God placed on the stone, according to Smith's faithful scribes. These faithful scribes said the imaginary plates were never in view, in the same room, or often never in the house, when Smith was “translating.”(Emma Smith, The Saints' Herald, May 19, 1888, p.310; and Saints' Herald, November 15, 1962, p.16. Martin Harris, Historical Record, by Andrew Jensen, p.216. David Whitmer, An Address To All Believers In Christ, p.12. Grant Palmer, An Insider's View of Mormon Origins)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21716 Mar 12, 2013
21. This may explain why nothing ancient appears in a book that is supposed to be of ancient origin. It may also explain why large sections of faulty King James text are plentiful, and why virtually nothing Smith described about the life of ancient inhabitants of America is correct. Despite Apostle Russell M. Nelson's talk to a small, select group admitting that Joseph used the stone-in-the-hat method to translate the Book of Mormon, he failed to give sufficient salient details such as the fact that the plates were often never in the same room as Smith; and he never consulted the plates during his supposed translation. This begs the question which the church avoids: Why all the fuss about a set of golden plates and magic peep stones - including the threat of death to anyone who saw the plates without permission - if they were not in view and he did not use them as a reference?(Russell M. Nelson, "Adapted from an address given 25 June 1992 at a seminar for new mission presidents, Missionary Training Center, Provo, Utah", can be found at http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_russellmne... )

22. The church suppressed damaging information that a general authority, considered to be the church’s foremost expert on the Book of Mormon, admitted that Joseph Smith had the resources, imagination and ability to author the Book of Mormon. Brigham H. Roberts (1857-1933), an LDS General Authority (Council of Seventy) doubted that the Book of Mormon is a translation of ancient scripture, after researching troubling questions. Elder Roberts uncovered extensive evidence that Joseph Smith borrowed the basic plot and many details from other books. This evidence — long suppressed because it is considered harmful to the Mormon Church — is presented in detail in three essays by Roberts, now published as Studies of the Book of Mormon (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1992).

Some observations from B.H. Roberts’ work:

It has been pointed out in these pages that there are many things in the former book [Ethan Smith’s View of the Hebrews] that might well have suggested many major things in the other. Not a few things merely, one or two, or half dozen, but many; and it is this fact of many things of similarity and the cumulative force of them that makes them so serious a menace to Joseph Smith's story of the Book of Mormon's origin ... The material in Ethan Smith's book is of a character and quantity to make a ground plan for the Book of Mormon (Studies, p. 240).
... was Joseph Smith possessed of a sufficiently vivid and creative imagination as to produce such a work as the Book of Mormon from such materials as have been indicated in the preceding chapters ...? That such power of imagination would have to be of a high order is conceded; that Joseph Smith possessed such a gift of mind there can be no question (Studies, p. 243).

[Roberts quoted J Smith’s mother’s history of Joseph.] During our evening conversations, Joseph would occasionally give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of travelings, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings, with every particular; their mode of warfare; and also their religious worship. This he would do with as much ease, seemingly, as if he had spent his whole life among them (Studies, p. 243).[Joseph Smith recited the scenes well before his claim that gold plates existed with the same “history” of America.]

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21717 Mar 12, 2013
[Roberts concluded] These evening recitals could come from no other source than the vivid, constructive imagination of Joseph Smith, a remarkable power which attended him through all his life. It was as strong and varied as Shakespeare's and no more to be accounted for than the English Bard's (Studies, p. 244).

The next section deals primarily with purposeful deception by church leaders to protect the practice of polygamy. The practice instigated an almost constant stream of untruths, lies, or prevarications. It also introduced the practice of systematic character assassination. Some apologists have excused the leaders' dishonesty, and praised them instead for their extreme dedication to a principle they believed was revealed by God. This kind of apologetic logic would praise those who strap bombs to their bodies or fly airplanes into skyscrapers driven by fanatical dedication to their particular religious beliefs.

23. One of Joseph Smith's first experiments with adultery began with a teen-age girl named Fanny Ward Alger who worked in the Smith home as a maidservant. William E. McLellin, Mormon apostle, indicated that Emma Smith "looked through a crack and saw the transaction" in the barn.(Richard Van Wagoner, Mormon Polygamy: A History, 2nd Edition, Signature Books, 1989, pages 4-11)

The affair led to a severe rift between loyal follower Oliver Cowdery and Joseph. Cowdery referred to Smith's indulgences with Fanny Alger as "A dirty, nasty, filthy affair." Church leaders and loyal defenders avoid linking Smith with his adultery by calling it an authorized "plural marriage." Todd Compton, author of, In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith, 2nd edition, notes that in February or March of 1833, when Joseph was 27 and Fanny Alger 17, he had sexual relations with her. After Emma found out about Joseph's secret love affair, she turned Fanny out of their house, where she had been working as a servant.(In Sacred Loneliness, pp. 34-36)

It has been noted that calling it a marriage instead of an affair raises more disturbing questions. Polygamous marriages were not legal in Ohio, the man who performed the ceremony had no authority to perform the illegal marriage, and Smith had not claimed any “revelations” or authority directing him to enter into polygamous marital arrangements in 1833-1835.

24. The LDS Church led by Joseph Smith, canonized monogamy as God's marriage arrangement and then did an about-face, adopting polygamy as God's recommended mode of marriage (D&C 42:22-24 and 132). Rumors about the Fanny Alger affair and rumors of another affair with Vienna Jacques, led to the development of an "Article on Marriage” in 1835, to convince members and non-members alike that Mormons were as Christian as others, and did not engage in abominations like polygamy. LDS leaders presented it to the general assembly of the church on August 17, 1835 and the Article was canonized as scripture and placed in the Doctrine and Covenants where it remained until 1876. It acknowledged that the church [Joseph Smith] had been "reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy" and declared that "we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman but one husband..." (Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, Prophet's Wife, "Elect Lady," Polygamy's Foe, Doubleday & Co. Garden City, NY, 1984, p. 67) The question arises again. Which of Joseph's revelations was "inspired"; the one recommending monogamy or the one recommending polygamy?
GOOGLE ATZEI CHAIM

Yuba City, CA

#21718 Mar 12, 2013
Having a SET of SCRIPTURES DEDICATED like that

is STANDARD ISRAELITE PROCEDURE. "TO MUARY EPSTEIN and ALL HIS DESCENDENTS and THOSE who BECOME PART OF HIS FAMILY etc

*** IS THE DEDICATION PROCESS for SCRIPTURES ***

**TWO SETS of JEWISH SCRIPTURES, ONE for EACH TRIBAL POSTERITY to HAVE to GUIDE their CIVILIZATION.

The JUDAH set guided the Jewish people who appended later with the New Testament by Christians

The JOSEPH set guided the Lehites who fled Jerusalem
just before the Babylonian king sacked Judea taking the Jewish people off into slavery.

They took THEIR set to the New World where they lived with MUCH LESS political competition from their offshoot Lamanites who didn't have other well organized societies to lean on when they split off from the main group.

So the Nephites were able to keep full possession of their culture for many years without such crushing pressure from the societies the Jewish people did.

They never had to develop the tradition of not writing the name of the Savior down, due to murderous dictators genocidal mass murder of entire generations of their boys.

They also never had to start talking about their prophecies in riddles for the same reason: fear of political or cultural leaders devising massacres based on Jewish prophetic pronouncements.

So there's much, MUCH more CONSTANT and open DISCUSSION about looking for
a SAVIOR
**NAMED JESUS CHRIST** who would COME and TEACH them MUCH RIGHTEOUSNESS and SAVE them from the PENALTY of their SINS if they'd OBEY Him.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21719 Mar 12, 2013
25. Joseph Smith institutionalized the practice of lying, so church leaders could deny the practice of taking multiple wives and keep Smith out of legal trouble. Sober-faced lies permitted leaders to deceive with a clear conscience; believing that God permitted and even encouraged lying to protect the principle of plural marriage.

An article from the 1886 Deseret News listed the code words and the rationale for their use. When accused of practicing "polygamy" Joseph and Hyrum denied it because it was different than "celestial marriage" and "a plurality of wives." Polygamy was after all, a doctrine of men and the devil. "Celestial marriage" was different Smith reasoned, because it was a holy doctrine revealed by God. Joseph wanted followers to believe that the two terms were completely dissimilar. Other code words were, "eternal marriage," "the divine order of marriage," "Holy order of marriage," "living up to your privileges," "new and everlasting covenant," and "a different view of things."

If accusers did not frame their allegations using precisely the right terms, the leaders felt justified in prevaricating. If the accusers framed their words perfectly, the leaders lied anyway. Their view was that it was more important to live the higher law - loyalty to the Prophet - than to expose the truth to Gentiles. A prominent feature of Mormonism is that loyalty trumps honesty.(Linda King Newell and Valeen Tippets Avery, Mormon Enigma: Emma Hale Smith, p. 113. See also B. Carmon Hardy, Solemn Covenant: The Mormon Polygamous Passage, University of Illinois Press, 1992,p. 365. For an excellent treatment of loyalty and obedience vs. honesty see http://i4m.com/think/leaders/mormon_loyalty.h... and http://i4m.com/think/leaders/come_clean.htm )

26. Vienna Jacques of Nauvoo heard rumors about "spiritual wifery." She wanted Emma to ask Joseph if the rumors were true. Was "spiritual wifery" a doctrine of the church?" Emma asked and relayed Joseph's answer. Vienna reported, "he,[Joseph] had told her [Emma] to tell the sisters of the [Women’s Relief] society ... "the whole idea was absolutely false and the doctrine an evil and unlawful thing." Joseph was secretly practicing plural marriage at the time.(Mormon Enigma, p. 114)

27. Contrary to the traditional LDS claim that the first wife had to first give her consent in order for her husband to take another wife, Emma Smith was unaware of nearly all of Joseph's "marriages" to other women. Eliza Snow, secretary to Emma in the Relief Society organization, as well as Sarah Cleveland, Emma's counselor, who was legally married to John Cleveland, were secretly married to Joseph, and Emma knew nothing about the marriages. According to Newell and Avery, "To live as a secret wife to a friend's husband demanded evasion, subterfuge, and deception." (Mormon Enigma, p. 119)

28. Joseph Smith secretly married 17 year old Sarah Ann Whitney in August 1842 without Emma's knowledge or consent. He had no intention of confessing his conduct to Emma. He wrote to her parents who approved of the marriage, "The only thing to be careful of is to find out when Emma comes, then you can not be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety... Burn this letter as soon as you read it." (Mormon Enigma, p. 125)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#21720 Mar 12, 2013
That list wasn't even half the page:
http://www.mormonthink.com/lying.htm

Mormon lying, it goes on, and on, and on,.....

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