The Shameful Mosque Controversy

The Shameful Mosque Controversy

There are 810 comments on the www.huffingtonpost.com story from Aug 13, 2010, titled The Shameful Mosque Controversy. In it, www.huffingtonpost.com reports that:

The United States is governed by a constitution whose First Amendment guarantees free exercise of religion. Governments at every level have understood that they must not obstruct the construction of religious facilities in their communities, even if those facilities are intended for (tiny, misunderstood, unpopular) religious minorities.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at www.huffingtonpost.com.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#696 Sep 5, 2010
Mac-7 wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think you can find RNC talkiing points on any conservative broadcast any time.
Often conservatives and liberals will be talking about the same subject depending on the news of the day.
But talking points?
No, that's just lib myth.
Gotcha.

I have, in fact heard this happen with several different talkers using precisely the same unlikely framing of a recent event on different stations witing mimutes of one another and then have then heard the same terms used by Limbaugh and Savage and others before the day was out, each one using the same off phrasing of some issue of the moment. It passes belief that it could be an accident.

Anyway, there was a small scandal in that business some ten years ago with someone interception what rather appeared to be a list of suggested topics, arguments, and phrasing (spinning) of the issue in, if I recall correctly, a fax coming from the RNC to various radio talkers. This was, of course, flatly denied by the RNC.

As for your unsupported assertion that it is not true that you can hear this sort of thing running day and night from coast to coast on radio stations owned by a small mumber of monoplist broadcasting corporations, you obviously don't get around this country much or you woudl know this to be true. I have been in every state except three and I am here to report to you from personal experience that it is true.

Why would I listen to such tripe? That's all that's on unless you like yowling country musicians or rappers. There was a time when the late night radio crackled with all manner of bizarre preachers and charlatans selling snake oil. Lately the snake oil sellers are back but mostly it's just RNC day and night from coast to coast and they still couldn't stop Obama's election despite their best efforts. Interesting.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#697 Sep 5, 2010
Hmmm. Must be time for my arthritis meds.

“This too shall pass”

Since: Dec 06

Small Town, USA

#698 Sep 5, 2010
How can anyone see the RNC as THE evil one in the political scenario when it is obvious that both parties are intent on limiting freedoms and raiding our pockets?

Since: Jun 09

Location hidden

#699 Sep 6, 2010
exiled wrote:
How can anyone see the RNC as THE evil one in the political scenario when it is obvious that both parties are intent on limiting freedoms and raiding our pockets?
Please dont bring logic into this. Some are going to get confused.

“Knowledge IS Power”

Since: Apr 09

Allentown

#700 Sep 6, 2010
laojim wrote:
<quoted text>
A nice regurgitation of Republican cant. Well laid out and correct as far as it goes, which ain't far.
Your lame attempts to convert an ordinary zoning controversies to a national referendum on someone's religion is, however, rather poor. Better luck next time.
ciao.
The positions I laid out aren't necessarily my beliefs. You incorrectly proposed a definition for elite Liberal. I merely corrected you.

As far as the Mosque goes, I propose nothing. I have taken no action or proposed anyhing. It is not 'my' attempt at anything.

“Knowledge IS Power”

Since: Apr 09

Allentown

#701 Sep 6, 2010
laojim wrote:
<quoted text>
A nice regurgitation of Republican cant. Well laid out and correct as far as it goes, which ain't far.
Your lame attempts to convert an ordinary zoning controversies to a national referendum on someone's religion is, however, rather poor. Better luck next time.
ciao.
Your assertion that those persons who are protesting this Mosque are doing so as to create a 'referendum on Islam' is yet another example of elite thinking many liberals express.

Many liberals assume that theirs is the moral high-ground and that any opposed MUST be doing so based solely on inferior thoughts and motives. It is quite prevelent in liberal thinking. My thinking is pure and just = anyone opposed to me must have unjust motives.

Maybe people are just afraid that the wrong Muslims may be contributing to this. Maybe people just think it is insensitive to build it there. Maybe some of the people don't like ANY religion and resent the tax exempt status it will get. We simply do not know. Any presumptin that those against this do so as a 'referendum on someone's religion' as you put it is indeed arrogant and perhaps elitist.

I have no doubt that there are normal human prejudices at work for sure, but that certainly doesn't translate into them wanting any kind of referendum. There are indeed nut jobs at work on both sides here; however, I don't think that represents the majority of persons who are against this.

“Just a Long Island lobsta ”

Since: Oct 07

Point Lookout

#702 Sep 6, 2010
The Muslim community in New York should help the Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed on 9/11 to rebuild first before asking for a new mosque for themselves. Show a little religious brotherly love up front of your own demands and maybe the world might be more tolerant to your religious desires. Just an idea from a non-believer.

“READ. FACT CHECK. VOTE.”

Since: Nov 09

Fayetteville, AR

#703 Sep 6, 2010
Doug K from Allentown wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes. I still have two questions which I wasn't asking to you, but since you replied, why not answer them?.
Keri22421 back in post 652 made the comment that 'manipulated' middle America is protesting this Mosque or whatever it is. She (I think) said the following:
"The actual community approved it months and months ago. It's manipulated middle America objecting now."
I told her that people were being 'manipulated' on both sides of this issue. That happened in post 653. She replied by mentioning Fox News in post 655. I then asked these two questions which you felt the need to reply to, but not really answer.
I will state them again if you wish...
1. What does Fox News say or not say that has anything to do with my post?
2. Is it REALLY your belief that Fox is SO POWERFUL that all those middle-Americans who oppose this Mosque (or whatever you call it) oppose because Fox told them to?
While you're in the answering mood, Here is another.
3. Please provide me a source that has footage or transcript of Fox being 'for' the Mosque. I was not able to find one. Someone mentioned 'December' or something. Perhaps you can point it out to me.
Jon Stewart had a clip of it on the Daily Show almost two weeks ago. It wasn't one of the commentators but a blond chick reporting the news. She seemed all in favor of it.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#704 Sep 6, 2010
exiled wrote:
How can anyone see the RNC as THE evil one in the political scenario when it is obvious that both parties are intent on limiting freedoms and raiding our pockets?
Nobody sees them as evil. Many people see them as pursuing what they believe to be their own self interest. Unfortunately when someone at the RNC thinks of "the American people" they think of their pals at the oil club or the yacht club, not of the guy with a job scraping along for his wife and kids. They are nice enough to give their pals tax breaks and don't worry about you because they have never met you.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#705 Sep 6, 2010
Doug K from Allentown wrote:
<quoted text>
Your assertion that those persons who are protesting this Mosque are doing so as to create a 'referendum on Islam' is yet another example of elite thinking many liberals express....
You make an error in reasoning. You repeatedly characterize something as "liberal" and then proceed to argue from your assumptions about what that might mean. Typically this sort of answer involves the citation of a couple of words and a lot of talk about "liberals" despite the fact that none of that was mentioned. It's like saying, "Oh, a Texan!" and then arguing from your assumption that all Texans are racists and liars.

I simply observe the repetition of the notion of "constructing a mosque in the shadow of ground zero" and note that there is no mosque, there is no ground zero shadow, and then I go on to wonder what this could possibly be about since it obviously is not what people say it is.

I note in this regard that there is a strong tendency on the part of self styled conservatives to suppose that they themselves have the right to reconsider all sorts of things that other people regard as their own prerogatives or rights and passing laws to harass people to try to force them to comply with their own prejudices rather than simply minding their own business and allowing others to live as they please. This is not a conservative habit, it is radical extremism. This is what we see in matters like abortion, prayer, and now religious architecture.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#706 Sep 6, 2010
Dick E Lobsta wrote:
The Muslim community in New York should help the Greek Orthodox Church that was destroyed on 9/11 to rebuild first before asking for a new mosque for themselves. Show a little religious brotherly love up front of your own demands and maybe the world might be more tolerant to your religious desires. Just an idea from a non-believer.
Build your own church. Maybe you could sue the bin Laden family or maybe you could sue their friends, the Bush family.
bumper sticker

Mount Hope, OH

#707 Sep 6, 2010
laojim wrote:
<quoted text>
You make an error in reasoning. You repeatedly characterize something as "liberal" and then proceed to argue from your assumptions about what that might mean. Typically this sort of answer involves the citation of a couple of words and a lot of talk about "liberals" despite the fact that none of that was mentioned. It's like saying, "Oh, a Texan!" and then arguing from your assumption that all Texans are racists and liars.
I simply observe the repetition of the notion of "constructing a mosque in the shadow of ground zero" and note that there is no mosque, there is no ground zero shadow, and then I go on to wonder what this could possibly be about since it obviously is not what people say it is.
I note in this regard that there is a strong tendency on the part of self styled conservatives to suppose that they themselves have the right to reconsider all sorts of things that other people regard as their own prerogatives or rights and passing laws to harass people to try to force them to comply with their own prejudices rather than simply minding their own business and allowing others to live as they please. This is not a conservative habit, it is radical extremism. This is what we see in matters like abortion, prayer, and now religious architecture.
You've obviously aced your freshman reading list. Good on you.

“Knowledge IS Power”

Since: Apr 09

Allentown

#708 Sep 6, 2010
laojim wrote:
<quoted text>
You make an error in reasoning. You repeatedly characterize something as "liberal" and then proceed to argue from your assumptions about what that might mean. Typically this sort of answer involves the citation of a couple of words and a lot of talk about "liberals" despite the fact that none of that was mentioned. It's like saying, "Oh, a Texan!" and then arguing from your assumption that all Texans are racists and liars.
I simply observe the repetition of the notion of "constructing a mosque in the shadow of ground zero" and note that there is no mosque, there is no ground zero shadow, and then I go on to wonder what this could possibly be about since it obviously is not what people say it is.
I note in this regard that there is a strong tendency on the part of self styled conservatives to suppose that they themselves have the right to reconsider all sorts of things that other people regard as their own prerogatives or rights and passing laws to harass people to try to force them to comply with their own prejudices rather than simply minding their own business and allowing others to live as they please. This is not a conservative habit, it is radical extremism. This is what we see in matters like abortion, prayer, and now religious architecture.
I made no error or generalization. I merely used your own words to point out the one you made. You stated that protesters of the Mosque (or whatever you wantto call it) are trying to create a referendum on someone's religion.

I merely proposed alternate reasons people may have for being against the project. I also compared your reasoning to that of many elite Liberals.

“Knowledge IS Power”

Since: Apr 09

Allentown

#709 Sep 6, 2010
laojim wrote:
<quoted text>
Build your own church. Maybe you could sue the bin Laden family or maybe you could sue their friends, the Bush family.
There again... such irrational hyperbole. With a commment like that, why should anyone take you seriously?

To be fair, I dismiss claims by birthers regarding Presinet Obama's birth with equal prejudice. Such visceral partisan rhetoric does no one any good.
GBA

White Lake, MI

#710 Sep 6, 2010
JRobert wrote:
"America is a free country where you can build whatever you want but not anywhere. That's why we have zoning laws. No liquor store near a school, no strip malls where they offend local sensibilities, and, if your house doesn't meet community architectural codes, you cannot build at all.
"These restrictions are for reasons of aesthetics. Others are for more profound reasons of common decency and respect for the sacred. No commercial tower over Gettysburg, no convent at Auschwitz and no mosque at Ground Zero. Build it anywhere but there."
-Charles Krauthammer
http://troyrecord.com/articles/2010/08/13/opi...
You've said it better than anyone I have heard. There is a such thing as the proper place. Ground zero is not the proper place. The very fact that the Muslims that want to build there do not get this or do not care exposes what many believe are their true motives. To drive a knife right through the hearts of Americans that love their country and they families who lost loved ones on 9/11.

“Did U plug the damn hole yet?”

Since: Jan 08

Addison, TX

#711 Sep 6, 2010
laojim wrote:
<quoted text>
Gotcha.
I have, in fact heard this happen with several different talkers using precisely the same unlikely framing of a recent event on different stations witing mimutes of one another and then have then heard the same terms used by Limbaugh and Savage and others before the day was out, each one using the same off phrasing of some issue of the moment. It passes belief that it could be an accident.
Anyway, there was a small scandal in that business some ten years ago with someone interception what rather appeared to be a list of suggested topics, arguments, and phrasing (spinning) of the issue in, if I recall correctly, a fax coming from the RNC to various radio talkers. This was, of course, flatly denied by the RNC.
As for your unsupported assertion that it is not true that you can hear this sort of thing running day and night from coast to coast on radio stations owned by a small mumber of monoplist broadcasting corporations, you obviously don't get around this country much or you woudl know this to be true. I have been in every state except three and I am here to report to you from personal experience that it is true.
Why would I listen to such tripe? That's all that's on unless you like yowling country musicians or rappers. There was a time when the late night radio crackled with all manner of bizarre preachers and charlatans selling snake oil. Lately the snake oil sellers are back but mostly it's just RNC day and night from coast to coast and they still couldn't stop Obama's election despite their best efforts. Interesting.
There are only so many different ways we can say that Obama is an idiot.

So you may here some of the same words used on different broadcasts.

But what you are mostly hearing is ideas being shared.

For instance I heard Jeb Babbot today talking about the Obama death panels again.

You remember those from the debate last year over ObamaCare.

Only Babbot was referring to news reports that the Dems may have to cut many incumbant Dems loose without party support during the fall elections due to a lack of money.

So a first term Obama Democrat in the district that voted for McCain in 2008 may be considered terminally ill by the DNC and have his or her life support pulled.

How fitting that the first victims of ObamaCare might by Democrats in the House who made the mistake of voting for it.

So now I have just repeated - although not word for word - an idea I learned from a conservative talk show host.

I'll bet others heard the same broadcast I did and will repeat parts of it too.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#712 Sep 6, 2010
Doug K from Allentown wrote:
<quoted text>
There again... such irrational hyperbole. With a commment like that, why should anyone take you seriously?
To be fair, I dismiss claims by birthers regarding Presinet Obama's birth with equal prejudice. Such visceral partisan rhetoric does no one any good.
Dear Mr. K. Where I come from that is readily understood as a humorous remark, but one not without some point. Alas, that you did not perceive that. Perhaps you are Scandinavian.

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#713 Sep 6, 2010
Mac-7 wrote:
<quoted text>
There are only so many different ways we can say that Obama is an idiot.
So you may here some of the same words used on different broadcasts.
In your case there are several ways to be an idiot. There are so many ways to say that George Bush is an idiot. There are so many ways to say that my late brother in law, Tom, was an idiot. So what?

The facts are that there was a small scandal a few years ago in which the RNC was caught sending out topics and verbal formulas for use by such people. It isn't that I didn't hear correctly or overgeneralized it is that people working on different networks used precisely the same verbal formulations within minutes of events, turns of speech clearly intended to spin the news of the moment to the benefit of the Republican party. It wasn't that I just happened to hear similar things, it was that I heard precisely the same thing. It isn't that they were all in touch with the truth and therefore all said the same thing it was that they have been coached, instructed, or encouraged to use the identical verbal formulas by some third party and that third party was, at least in some cases and we assume, therefore, in other cases that this was from the RNC as an organization or some functionary thereof.

No. I am telling you something that you didn't know. I am telling you that these radio guys are all taking instructions, at least upon occasion, from some third party and that third party has been, on at least one occasion, the RMC. This is not a myth of "those liberals" this is a fact of the broadcasting industry. What do I know about the broadcasting industry? Rather a lot, actually.

Haven't you ever wondered why one hears no songs on the radio that ever hint at the notion that the unilateral invasion of Iraq was a rather poor idea, this in a nation with freedom of speech here polls suggest many, if not most people, disagree with the Bush Wars? This, in a nation where, during a previous war, the airways were fairly crackling with all sorts of opinions and now one rarely hears anything but one? Does not this seem odd? Did you suppose that people once clamored to have their airways entirely taken over by self styled conservatives? Doesn't that strike you as just a little strange in the United States of America?

Perhaps you are very young indeed.
Dan Dougherty

Phoenix, AZ

#714 Sep 6, 2010
Beware of the "religion of Nimrod!"

www.scribd.com/doc/17301877/The-Religion-of-N...

Since: May 09

Location hidden

#715 Sep 6, 2010
Doug K from Allentown wrote:
<quoted text>
....
I merely proposed alternate reasons people may have for being against the project. I also compared your reasoning to that of many elite Liberals.
But you don't base your "alternate reasons" on any of the facts of the matter. You base your reasons on what you think "you liberals" always think, as though there was a person or persons identifiable as "you liberals"---which wouldn't include me, my sympathies being with the radical, not liberal, left---and which you then imagine you can argue from what these nonexistent "you liberals" think.

Go on, tell me what I am thinking at this moment. Wrong, I was thinking of Dairy Queen. So, you see, you need a more firm foundation.

"Elite liberals" like "you liberals" is another straw man. It is a meaningless term in that it has no referents. I could just as well argue that all elite liberals like fried chicken and it would be just as true, because the term "liberal elite" and all related phrases, were concocted specifically by Republican speech writers trying to confuse whatever the issue is at the moment. It is, in the strict sense of the term, claptrap.

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