Big 3 bailout hopes dim as Senate, Bu...

Big 3 bailout hopes dim as Senate, Bush clash

There are 15 comments on the TwinCities.com story from Nov 17, 2008, titled Big 3 bailout hopes dim as Senate, Bush clash. In it, TwinCities.com reports that:

Even as top Senate Democrats rolled out legislation to provide $25 billion in loans to America's domestic automakers, the prospects of emergency funds appeared bleak Monday as the White House and Congress ...

Join the discussion below, or Read more at TwinCities.com.

“Sustainability Now!”

Since: May 08

Vadnais Heights

#1 Nov 18, 2008
For once, I agree with a Republican! I've been ranting for days against bailing out the ossified top management of the Detroit 3 that seem to think it is their God-given RIGHT to produce gas-guzzling vehicles. Senator Shelby said it well:

In a statement to McClatchy Newspapers, Shelby said through a spokesman: "It would be wrong for the federal government to bail out a private company and pick winners and losers in the marketplace. Practically, it would be foolish to funnel billions of taxpayer dollars to prop up a failed business model. Those things adversely affect all of us."

Home Depot was wise enough to get rid of Bob Nardelli -- now we should bail this moron out? Not with MY tax dollars!!!
Monk

Manitowoc, WI

#2 Nov 18, 2008
Madaman wrote:
For once, I agree with a Republican! I've been ranting for days against bailing out the ossified top management of the Detroit 3 that seem to think it is their God-given RIGHT to produce gas-guzzling vehicles. Senator Shelby said it well:
In a statement to McClatchy Newspapers, Shelby said through a spokesman: "It would be wrong for the federal government to bail out a private company and pick winners and losers in the marketplace. Practically, it would be foolish to funnel billions of taxpayer dollars to prop up a failed business model. Those things adversely affect all of us."
Home Depot was wise enough to get rid of Bob Nardelli -- now we should bail this moron out? Not with MY tax dollars!!!
Here, here. No bailout for these guys or the oil companies. The
Bank bailout has gone way too far as well. Start producing your
European models here with an incentive to start doing it now.
Robert

Chengdu, China

#3 Nov 18, 2008
This puts the last nail in the coffin of the domestic car industry.

This just about completes the deindustrialization of the United States economy to a financial and service economy (read low wages). Expect more failures like this in the future.

Get ready for the same "Reaganomics" under the Obama Administration. This is just a whiff of the "Change" that was promised, change for the worst, that is,
Mr D

Maple Grove, MN

#5 Nov 18, 2008
Republicans have done everything possible to DESTROY the middle class and promote off-shore manufacturing of everything that once made this country a leader. If the short sighted objective is to destroy unions and its members then YOU also must expect that wages in America will need to drop to compete with China, India and Mexico. At the same time expect your fourty hour work week, holidays, healthcare and benefits to disappear. Welcome to USA incorporated!

Since: Nov 08

San Marcos, TX

#6 Nov 18, 2008
Logan's Law: if money is hemorrhaging out of the Treasury, you know the Republicans have been at work.

Ever since Reagan, money has hemorrhaged out of America under Republican control. That's why your money is worth so much less than it was.

Of all the debt accumulated by the U.S. throughout its hidtory, Republicans have accrued more than 90%. 70% of the total U.S. debt throughout history has been acrrued by a Reagan or a Bush!

For normal people, the conclusion is inescapable: Republican policies always fail--and they always fail catastrophically. And they always blame the Democrats for their screw-ups. ;)

How to Tell Your Party Is Dead:
weekendmech

Minneapolis, MN

#8 Nov 18, 2008
Ah, yes and the taxpayer will be stuck AGAIN paying for auto worker's pensions. We are [email protected] if we do and [email protected] if we don't.......if the Big 3 just "go away" Millions of jobs will go away directly and indirctly and billions of dollars in tax revenue..... don't be too hasty in your wishes..... All "parties" whether political,company or union have some blame in this catastrophe.
Monk

Manitowoc, WI

#10 Nov 18, 2008
Robert wrote:
This puts the last nail in the coffin of the domestic car industry.
This just about completes the deindustrialization of the United States economy to a financial and service economy (read low wages). Expect more failures like this in the future.
Get ready for the same "Reaganomics" under the Obama Administration. This is just a whiff of the "Change" that was promised, change for the worst, that is,
Actually, Robert, that "whiff" we get is from the air pollution coming from your own country, China:
"Much of the particulate pollution over Los Angeles originates in China" "It is possible that by the end of this year China will surpass the United States as the leading emitter of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere."

China's uncontrolled industrial growth is hardly anything to be crow-
ing about, Robert. First it was radioactive fallout from Chinese nuclear tests in the 1960's. Now it is incessant air pollution sweeping across the Pacific from China-
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.ph...

All that pollution is killing the Chinese people as well:
"China Confronts Growing Environmental, Health Concerns":
"Millions of rural and urban citizens in China suffer from health problems primarily due to air pollution and water contamination. Every year, air pollution in China causes as many as 400,000 premature deaths and 75 million asthma attacks. Meanwhile, 25 percent of the Chinese population, mainly in rural areas, is drinking unclean water."

Your doom and gloom predictions for the United States economy,
political system and financial system apply more to China than the
US. The Chinese economy is polluting the world and killing Chinese
workers. The political system is the failed politics and finance of
Communism. The Chinese people are ripe for revolution. Change
is coming to Red China in a big way.

“Sustainability Now!”

Since: May 08

Vadnais Heights

#11 Nov 18, 2008
Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
The political system is the failed politics and finance of
Communism. The Chinese people are ripe for revolution. Change
is coming to Red China in a big way.
Gosh, Monk, there is no need to get defensive! An American in China has offered some unflattering but penetrating insights into the dynamics of the American economy -- there is no need to "get him back" by pointing out some of the problems facing the Chinese economy.

What each of you has posted seems accurate enough, just that this is a thread regarding the possible bail-out of the Detroit automakers. I don't object to some of the rather partisan bashing here -- the cause of the need FOR a bailout is fair game. Chinese pollution is the subject for a different thread.

A thread on unrequested Chinese imports could be interesting, especially if someone living in China participated!
Monk

Manitowoc, WI

#14 Nov 18, 2008
Madaman wrote:
<quoted text>
Gosh, Monk, there is no need to get defensive! An American in China has offered some unflattering but penetrating insights into the dynamics of the American economy -- there is no need to "get him back" by pointing out some of the problems facing the Chinese economy.
What each of you has posted seems accurate enough, just that this is a thread regarding the possible bail-out of the Detroit automakers. I don't object to some of the rather partisan bashing here -- the cause of the need FOR a bailout is fair game. Chinese pollution is the subject for a different thread.
A thread on unrequested Chinese imports could be interesting, especially if someone living in China participated!
You took this in a different direction with this cryptic quip- "This just about completes the deindustrialization of the United States economy to a financial and service economy (read low wages). Expect more failures like this in the future."

This completes the deindustrialization of the US? The American workforce is the most productive in the world. The US economy represents every type of commerce. We do that with a democratic form of government, not with the brutal dictatorship of Communism.
Your industry is killing tens of thousands of Chinese citizens and sickening millions more. There are tradeoffs in any economy. Polluting
the world and killing its own citizens is how Communist China tries to be productive. High paying jobs don't do any good to a sick and dying
population.
Monk

Manitowoc, WI

#15 Nov 18, 2008
Madaman wrote:
<quoted text>
Gosh, Monk, there is no need to get defensive! An American in China has offered some unflattering but penetrating insights into the dynamics of the American economy -- there is no need to "get him back" by pointing out some of the problems facing the Chinese economy.
What each of you has posted seems accurate enough, just that this is a thread regarding the possible bail-out of the Detroit automakers. I don't object to some of the rather partisan bashing here -- the cause of the need FOR a bailout is fair game. Chinese pollution is the subject for a different thread.
A thread on unrequested Chinese imports could be interesting, especially if someone living in China participated!
My friend Madman- Robert Wen is antiAmerican and he predicts
the demise of the US at the hands of an invisible Nazi dominated
financial conspiracy. He calls Pres Bush a mass murderer of 2 million Iraqis and he is antisemitic. He predicts social unrest, and a takeover of the US by the Army. You go ahead and discuss his perceptive insights with him. He needs a friend.
Bill

Minneapolis, MN

#16 Nov 18, 2008
Aren't we going to be getting some Chinese made cars soon? Everything else we have comes from China. Why not drive Chinese cars also?

“Sustainability Now!”

Since: May 08

Vadnais Heights

#17 Nov 18, 2008
Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
My friend Madman- Robert Wen is antiAmerican and he predicts
the demise of the US at the hands of an invisible Nazi dominated
financial conspiracy. He calls Pres Bush a mass murderer of 2 million Iraqis and he is antisemitic. He predicts social unrest, and a takeover of the US by the Army. You go ahead and discuss his perceptive insights with him. He needs a friend.
Monk - did you intend your previous post for Robert Wen? It is addressed to me, but sounds like you are speaking to him. If that was an error you are surely forgiven!

I am not aware of these other "penetrating insights" offered by Robert, and learning of them has me want to rethink his post inside of this different context. He does make a point that the US has been in a Post-Industrial era for some time, that it is mostly manufacturing jobs that have been exported -- those well-paying jobs that the American middle class was built upon.

It is difficult to deny that the erosion of the middle class has been significant -- even if an anti-American jerk is the one who tells us. Remember that a broken clock is still correct twice a day!

“Sustainability Now!”

Since: May 08

Vadnais Heights

#20 Nov 18, 2008
Bob the Bilderberg wrote:
God you people are stupid.
Thank you for sharing your unvarnished opinion of the collective intelligence of those who post here, and for notifying your Deity whom you must suspect is not quite as omniscient as she is reputed to be.

If YOU are the guy with the smarts, perhaps you will share some of your infinite wisdom with the mere mortals who post here. It is the least you could do!
Robert

Chengdu, China

#21 Nov 18, 2008
Monk wrote:
<quoted text>
My friend Madman- Robert Wen is antiAmerican and he predicts
the demise of the US at the hands of an invisible Nazi dominated
financial conspiracy. He calls Pres Bush a mass murderer of 2 million Iraqis and he is antisemitic. He predicts social unrest, and a takeover of the US by the Army. You go ahead and discuss his perceptive insights with him. He needs a friend.
I'm actually Chinese who spent 12 years studying in the U.S. I speak 4 languages. I have a Chinese passport. I've traveled in 60 countries.

I know more about the United States than most people living there, that's for sure. I've had U.S.-style "history" classes, too!

It works like this, the standard of living in the U.S. is too expensive to support for investment purposes. When the United States is "competitive" with places like China, India, and all of the other 3rd world countries, then, only then, will the United States economy be reindustrialized.

In the meanwhile, watch the the investments go elsewhere, and watch the money go elsewhere too. This means, with the lack of investment, the standard of living in the United States will get less and less; down, down, down. This is why the standard of living in China is climbing at a rate of 8 percent a year, money is pouring in and there is a lot of domestic investment.

This is what's meant by Globalization.

The party is over in the United States.
Thomas Krouse CFA

Coronado, CA

#26 Nov 19, 2008
Reason number 1: It is by far "In the best interests of the U.S. Taxpayer".
Rick Wagoner just stated the #1 reason at the House Financial Services Cmte a few moments ago (broadcast on CNBC)- the ROI to the Federal Treasury of future tax revenues to the loan amount is huge (even if the loan is considered a cost, not an investment with likely return of principal).
Reason number 2: In order to "Level the Playing field" - because the profitability of the Big Three has been undermined by predatory subsidies provided to FOREIGN AUTO MANUFACTURERS by individual states in the South (Alabama, Arkansas, Tennessee, etc).
The Southern states have been providing BILLIONS of dollars in free land, tax rebates, taxpayer provided infrastructure etc in order to lure Foreign Auto Manufacturers (Honda, Toyota, BMW,...) to build plants in the South thus dealing a triple whammy against the Big Three: 1) this corporate welfare has driven down the foreign manufacturers cost of production relative to the Big Three, 2) the resulting gains in market share by the foreign manufacturers has driven up the Big Three's average cost by reducing their sales volume, 3) this same market share "poaching" has also tilted the playing field against the Big Three in their efforts to pay for the health care and pension benefits of their large pool of American retirees.
Granted, the Southern states used the same ROI analysis in deciding to provide incentives that Rick Wagoner used (see Reason #1), however, the Southern states' analysis is flawed - their actions poach against OTHER STATES and the OVERALL US ECONOMY SUFFERS due to their actions. Federal Incentives boost the U.S. economy overall, and if anyone suffers, it is foreign manufactures.
The best solution, long term, would be to ban all corporate subsidies by individual states, and to avoid Federal Subsidies except in dire/extreme situations that would yield clear overall benefits. Now is such an extreme situation, and the benefits are clear.
Reason number 3: The Big Three are largely "Financial Institutions" suffering just like any bank except that the impact on the general public is much more direct.
The Big Three are in large part vertically integrated financial firms who are providing credit to consumers who then purchase vehicles and thius provide employment to millions of American autoworkers, parts suppliers, and others. In the short term, the global credit crunch has frozen this entire economic food chain.
Misleading Talking Points:
Wildly false and inflammatory comments by elected representatives in Congress and television commentators (e.g. Mark Haines from CNBC) ARE CHEAP SHOTS AGAINST THE PEOPLE'S BEST INTEREST. Please, the next time Haines or anyone else says that "The Big Three don't make cars that anyone wants to buy", someone must not hesitate to interrupt to point out the facts: The Big Three have over 45% market share in the U.S. having sold over 7 million vehicles in the last 12 months - clearly, millions of people bought these cars, and by definition even more people 'want' these cars, but at the moment, these americans can't get financing to buy these cars.

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