Senators Reach Agreement On Overhauling Immigration

Jan 28, 2013 Full story: National Public Radio 584

A bipartisan group of leading senators has reached agreement on the principles of sweeping legislation to rewrite the nation's immigration laws.

Full Story
Married

Hurst, TX

#474 Feb 12, 2013
Chicopee wrote:
<quoted text>
Most who work off the books get paid in cash...and they aren't having taxes taken out.
In the meantime, it is property taxes that pay for schools...and if you own a house, you pay the taxes, whether you have children in those schools or not, whether you can deduct dependents from your taxes or not.
We have grade schools here that have 60% to 70% hispanic children. Most are on the breakfast and lunch programs, the schools have health and dental clinics, which several times a year also let parents come in for check-ups.
All of this is paid by local property taxes, something which few illegal aliens are paying, yet our property taxes have nearly doubled since we bought our house and are about to go up again. My husband and I will not be able to afford to retire here, even when our home is paid off, largely because of the damned property tax. Most people we know who have reached retirement find they have to leave the state or live on a tight shoestring budget so they can pay anywhere from $750 to $1400 a month in property tax.
You can parse this all you like, but it is working Americans who are stuck with the bill for millions of people who are here illegally. If the government had to foot the whole cost, this problem would have been addressed a long time ago.
It might be different where you live but a lot of fast chains, janitors, factories and they get pay checks and taxes get taken out of the pay check as far as the schools we can fix that anybody and I mean anybody who does not have proof of ownership of a house must pay 1000 per kid
Don Joe

Minneapolis, MN

#475 Feb 12, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
The only way to level the playing field would be to pay 3rd world wages to Americans doing manufacturing jobs. Then everything would be level.
Somehow I don't think that will help.
I don't think so. For example; I know a guy who owned his own metal machining shop. He had a few employees, and manufactured prototypes for large corporations. One day a few years back he went to the local grocery store. They had some cooking pots for sale. He examined the quality of the pots. The materials were good. The workmanship was good. He observed the "made in China" sticker on the bottom, and the retail price was less than he could purchase the raw materials to make the pots in his own shop.

That means that if his employees worked for free, his building was free, he didn't have to pay for electricity, heating or cooling, zero taxes, zero expenses; he still could not compete. When the retail price is less than the cost of the raw materials you cannot compete. The field is not level.

It comes from China engaging in currency manipulation. It is common knowledge that they are manipulating, yet our government considers them a most favored trading partner.

The US used to have tariffs to level the field. Those could be restored. The level of the tariffs is to tax the products so the selling price is roughly equivalent to what it would be if the product were manufactured in the USA. Should the government decide to do this, the manufacturing jobs would return.
Married

Hurst, TX

#476 Feb 12, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
That's why we need to change funding of public schools from property taxes to a sales tax. That way everyone pays.
I like your idea better then mine

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#477 Feb 12, 2013
Don Joe wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't think so. For example; I know a guy who owned his own metal machining shop. He had a few employees, and manufactured prototypes for large corporations. One day a few years back he went to the local grocery store. They had some cooking pots for sale. He examined the quality of the pots. The materials were good. The workmanship was good. He observed the "made in China" sticker on the bottom, and the retail price was less than he could purchase the raw materials to make the pots in his own shop.
That means that if his employees worked for free, his building was free, he didn't have to pay for electricity, heating or cooling, zero taxes, zero expenses; he still could not compete. When the retail price is less than the cost of the raw materials you cannot compete. The field is not level.
It comes from China engaging in currency manipulation. It is common knowledge that they are manipulating, yet our government considers them a most favored trading partner.
The US used to have tariffs to level the field. Those could be restored. The level of the tariffs is to tax the products so the selling price is roughly equivalent to what it would be if the product were manufactured in the USA. Should the government decide to do this, the manufacturing jobs would return.
And any tariffs we impose on other countries, they would just turn around and increase tariffs on what we export, and now we're in a trade war again.

How is raising the price of a toaster to $100 just so it can be manufactured in America good for anybody?

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#478 Feb 12, 2013
Increasing tariffs only increases prices in the store.
Don Joe

Minneapolis, MN

#479 Feb 12, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
And any tariffs we impose on other countries, they would just turn around and increase tariffs on what we export, and now we're in a trade war again.
How is raising the price of a toaster to $100 just so it can be manufactured in America good for anybody?
Of course they will cry and threaten, and whine, but ultimately agreements will be reached. We have nothing to lose as all of our jobs and the economic strength of our nation are being destroyed. I would rather go down fighting, than just curl up in a ball and die.

As to raising the price of a toaster too high, while it might go a bit higher, the quality might be a lot better, so instead paying $50 now, and buying a new one next year, how about paying $70 now and it lasts for 10 years. It is a much better value.

One might argue that while many jobs could return, not all of them because of automation. Automation will continue to bring the price down so the price discrepancy will not be that much; besides shipping a toaster from Hong Kong to Minnesota is not all that cheap. Shipping completely within the state is much more efficient.

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#480 Feb 12, 2013
Don Joe wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course they will cry and threaten, and whine, but ultimately agreements will be reached. We have nothing to lose as all of our jobs and the economic strength of our nation are being destroyed. I would rather go down fighting, than just curl up in a ball and die.
As to raising the price of a toaster too high, while it might go a bit higher, the quality might be a lot better, so instead paying $50 now, and buying a new one next year, how about paying $70 now and it lasts for 10 years. It is a much better value.
One might argue that while many jobs could return, not all of them because of automation. Automation will continue to bring the price down so the price discrepancy will not be that much; besides shipping a toaster from Hong Kong to Minnesota is not all that cheap. Shipping completely within the state is much more efficient.
More likely the quality is going to be just as crappy because companies will have to pay more in wages and more for the natural resources to build those products.

If your wage costs are 10 times more and the cost of resources (materials, electricity, buildings, etc) are 10 times more, then the cost of making the same quality product will be 10 times more.

So we get to pay 10 times the cost of a current product for the one just as crappy.

How is that a benefit to the average American?

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#481 Feb 12, 2013
Don Joe wrote:
One might argue that while many jobs could return, not all of them because of automation. Automation will continue to bring the price down so the price discrepancy will not be that much; besides shipping a toaster from Hong Kong to Minnesota is not all that cheap. Shipping completely within the state is much more efficient.
Actually it's the shipping costs which will likely return manufacturing to the US.

Once oil is scarce it will be too expensive to ship products around the world and everything will need to be made locally.

Of course that also means it won't be cost effective for the US to export our products to other countries either.

So again we're back to manufacturing only enough products for what Americans consume, which won't support our current standard of living.
Chicopee

Danbury, CT

#483 Feb 12, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow, so why are you living there if it's so expensive?
I pay less than $400 per YEAR in property taxes, and I have a 10 acre property.
Sounds like you chose poorly.
Whatsa matter? Someone piss in your cornflakes this morning?
Why do I live here?
Because I was born here, raised here, graduated here and got off to a great start in a good paying career here. I got married, we bought a house, we had children and have large, extended families that us and them are an integral part of.
This state has gone down the crapper in the last twenty five years. Where we had wall to wall manufacturing, we now have wall to wall empty industrial parks that look like ghost towns. Businesses left in droves because we have the most regulations and highest costs...throughout the eighties, all the major manufacturing moved, and most of them moved to California. The middle class quickly followed the jobs out of here and the income demagrahics have changed dramatically. We are now increasingly a state made up of the higher and lower income brackets with a shrinking middle...and some of the highest tax rates in the country, on everything.
We will probably have to leave, and where we go will largely depend on our children and where they end up. The good news is that because our property values are high, we'll likely do well moving to a less expensive area.
Some of us value family more than money. If you don't get that, then you don't. But we will never choose to live a long distance from our children.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#484 Feb 12, 2013
Chicopee wrote:
<quoted text>
Whatsa matter? Someone piss in your cornflakes this morning?
Why do I live here?
Because I was born here, raised here, graduated here and got off to a great start in a good paying career here. I got married, we bought a house, we had children and have large, extended families that us and them are an integral part of.
This state has gone down the crapper in the last twenty five years. Where we had wall to wall manufacturing, we now have wall to wall empty industrial parks that look like ghost towns. Businesses left in droves because we have the most regulations and highest costs...throughout the eighties, all the major manufacturing moved, and most of them moved to California. The middle class quickly followed the jobs out of here and the income demagrahics have changed dramatically. We are now increasingly a state made up of the higher and lower income brackets with a shrinking middle...and some of the highest tax rates in the country, on everything.
We will probably have to leave, and where we go will largely depend on our children and where they end up. The good news is that because our property values are high, we'll likely do well moving to a less expensive area.
Some of us value family more than money. If you don't get that, then you don't. But we will never choose to live a long distance from our children.
California doesn't have lots of regulations? what bullshit have you been eating?

Mn here has tons of regulations and high taxes (we formed our Minnesota Pollution Control Agency two years before the national EPA) and we have lots of fortune 500 companies headquartered here. more than most states...

it is the standard ofliving that most companies, and people, look for..
Chicopee

Danbury, CT

#485 Feb 12, 2013
WeTheSheeple wrote:
<quoted text>
You act like it's something new. It's no different than the Italians hating the Poles, and the Irish hating the Germans, and the Swedes hating the English, etc. All immigrants to America have had enthic clashes with other groups. It seems to be in our nature.
To a point, you're right. Humans are tribal and prefer to live among those of a similar culture and faith with which they feel comfortable, which is why there have always been Italian neighborhoods, Polish, German, etc.. There is also safety in numbers.
The only big conflicts in this area were when the Irish came...they were segregated into certain areas of this city, mostly because the Protestants distrust of Catholics, yet within thirty years, the Irish had overcome this through their thrift, hard work and strong family orientation. It also helped that they pretty much made up the whole of the police force and held numerous elected positions.
When the Italians came, it was the Irish who were hardest on them, though the rest of the population didn't welcome them with open arms, either. They were also Catholics, but the Irish priests and nuns were really hard on the Italian school children. My grandparents, great aunts and uncles all have horror stories about going to the Catholic schools here.
For these two groups, there was a race to see who would get off the bottom rung of the economic ladder first.
But none of these immigrants regarded themselves as "minorities". That word wasn't even used, never mind recognized as requiring special treatment, reduced college tuition, ESL and schools requiring teachers who spoke Italian or Gaelic. And they certainly weren't counted on census reports as a different "race", though most didn't recognize Italians as "white".
Yesterdays immigrants weren't encouraged to hang on to their culture or their language. Today, we have children born in this country who turn up in our public schools unable to speak a word of English. My oldest daughter's closest friend, starting from back in grade school...neither her or her younger brother knew any English at all. Both are very fluent now, but they both have accents. Both are American born. That's a new phenomena in America, and I don't think it's a good one.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#486 Feb 12, 2013
Chicopee wrote:
<quoted text>
To a point, you're right. Humans are tribal and prefer to live among those of a similar culture and faith with which they feel comfortable, which is why there have always been Italian neighborhoods, Polish, German, etc.. There is also safety in numbers.
The only big conflicts in this area were when the Irish came...they were segregated into certain areas of this city, mostly because the Protestants distrust of Catholics, yet within thirty years, the Irish had overcome this through their thrift, hard work and strong family orientation. It also helped that they pretty much made up the whole of the police force and held numerous elected positions.
When the Italians came, it was the Irish who were hardest on them, though the rest of the population didn't welcome them with open arms, either. They were also Catholics, but the Irish priests and nuns were really hard on the Italian school children. My grandparents, great aunts and uncles all have horror stories about going to the Catholic schools here.
For these two groups, there was a race to see who would get off the bottom rung of the economic ladder first.
But none of these immigrants regarded themselves as "minorities". That word wasn't even used, never mind recognized as requiring special treatment, reduced college tuition, ESL and schools requiring teachers who spoke Italian or Gaelic. And they certainly weren't counted on census reports as a different "race", though most didn't recognize Italians as "white".
Yesterdays immigrants weren't encouraged to hang on to their culture or their language. Today, we have children born in this country who turn up in our public schools unable to speak a word of English. My oldest daughter's closest friend, starting from back in grade school...neither her or her younger brother knew any English at all. Both are very fluent now, but they both have accents. Both are American born. That's a new phenomena in America, and I don't think it's a good one.
As you pointed out, it is not a new trend. the second generation of immigrants learn the language. those earlier immigrants you spoke of often never got beyond pigin english. people in my family still speak mainly polish in their home.

you disproved your own rant...
Chicopee

Danbury, CT

#488 Feb 12, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>California doesn't have lots of regulations? what bullshit have you been eating?
Mn here has tons of regulations and high taxes (we formed our Minnesota Pollution Control Agency two years before the national EPA) and we have lots of fortune 500 companies headquartered here. more than most states...
it is the standard ofliving that most companies, and people, look for..
Always so vile, even as you talk out of your anal orifice.
There was a mass exodus of businesses out of Connecticut that mostly went to California. Ever hear of Silicon Valley?
It was Connecticut's high tax rates, including property and business taxes. I guarantee that our regulations are more strict here in Ct. than where you are and they got that way a lot sooner.
High labor costs and high union participation...but of course, those two go hand in hand.
Now, many of those same companies are leaving California for the same reason. State governments never learn.
There are lots of articles and literature written about Ct., businesses and what not to do when those businesses relocate to your state (don't be like Connecticut). Maybe you could try informing yourself...even slightly, before you call bullshit.
Or just keep braying in ignorance. It makes no difference to me.

Since: Mar 11

St. Croix valley

#489 Feb 12, 2013
Chicopee wrote:
<quoted text>
Always so vile, even as you talk out of your anal orifice.
There was a mass exodus of businesses out of Connecticut that mostly went to California. Ever hear of Silicon Valley?
It was Connecticut's high tax rates, including property and business taxes. I guarantee that our regulations are more strict here in Ct. than where you are and they got that way a lot sooner.
High labor costs and high union participation...but of course, those two go hand in hand.
Now, many of those same companies are leaving California for the same reason. State governments never learn.
There are lots of articles and literature written about Ct., businesses and what not to do when those businesses relocate to your state (don't be like Connecticut). Maybe you could try informing yourself...even slightly, before you call bullshit.
Or just keep braying in ignorance. It makes no difference to me.
So why do the states with high taxes an regulations have the best businesses and the highest standards of living?

perhaps the businesses just left Connecticut because it sucks?
Chicopee

Danbury, CT

#490 Feb 12, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>As you pointed out, it is not a new trend. the second generation of immigrants learn the language. those earlier immigrants you spoke of often never got beyond pigin english. people in my family still speak mainly polish in their home.
you disproved your own rant...
My great grandmother, whose oldest four children came with her from Germany, allowed no one in their house to speak German, in spite of the fact that her English wasn't so good, either. She was an absolute tyrant about it, but she didn't want any of her children working alongside her at a hat factory.
She retired at age 71 as a department supervisor, very fluent in English. Only one of her eleven children ever ended up doing factory work. He later got a job with Connnecticut Light and Power and retired early with a big, fat pension.
My grandmother, who was born in Germany, barely speaks German today (she was aged three when they came here) and can remember when dinner time conversations were stilted and difficult because they all struggled along in English, including my great grandfather.
She became a nurse. In fact, all ten of those children (one died at age nine) went on to do well. Nurses, teachers, a biologist, a college professor, a journalist and two who started their own businesses, both of which flourish today.
While what you describe in your family is common, it isn't the rule.
Chicopee

Danbury, CT

#491 Feb 12, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>So why do the states with high taxes an regulations have the best businesses and the highest standards of living?
perhaps the businesses just left Connecticut because it sucks?
If that's what makes it work for you...sure, that must be why. Happy now??

“Work hard at work worth doing.”

Since: Apr 11

Location hidden

#492 Feb 13, 2013
woodtick57 wrote:
<quoted text>So why do the states with high taxes an regulations have the best businesses and the highest standards of living?
perhaps the businesses just left Connecticut because it sucks?
Think again.

"In fact, most of the top-10 states people are leaving are located in the Northeast and Great Lakes regions, including Illinois (60%), New York (58%), Michigan (58%), Maine (56%), Connecticut (56%) and Wisconsin (55%). According to Stoll, this reflects a consistent trend of migration from the Frost Belt to the Sun Belt states based on a combination of causes."

High taxes, high costs of housing and lack of industries are forcing people out of the frost belt.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/201...

Where are they moving?

TX, Washington, DC, San Francisco, Denver and Houston, It appears that Texas has the most to offer in the way of jobs.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/201...

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#493 Feb 13, 2013
Chicopee wrote:
<quoted text>
Whatsa matter? Someone piss in your cornflakes this morning?
Why do I live here?
Because I was born here, raised here, graduated here and got off to a great start in a good paying career here. I got married, we bought a house, we had children and have large, extended families that us and them are an integral part of.
This state has gone down the crapper in the last twenty five years. Where we had wall to wall manufacturing, we now have wall to wall empty industrial parks that look like ghost towns. Businesses left in droves because we have the most regulations and highest costs...throughout the eighties, all the major manufacturing moved, and most of them moved to California. The middle class quickly followed the jobs out of here and the income demagrahics have changed dramatically. We are now increasingly a state made up of the higher and lower income brackets with a shrinking middle...and some of the highest tax rates in the country, on everything.
We will probably have to leave, and where we go will largely depend on our children and where they end up. The good news is that because our property values are high, we'll likely do well moving to a less expensive area.
Some of us value family more than money. If you don't get that, then you don't. But we will never choose to live a long distance from our children.
Then don't bitch about the cost of living when you choose to live there.
Billy Ringo

United States

#494 Feb 13, 2013
Senate reaches agreement on overhauling immigration?

What happened to "self-deportation"?

That was a brilliant proposal !!!!!!

“Headed toward the cliff”

Since: Nov 07

Tawas City, Michigan

#495 Feb 13, 2013
Chicopee wrote:
Yesterdays immigrants weren't encouraged to hang on to their culture or their language. Today, we have children born in this country who turn up in our public schools unable to speak a word of English. My oldest daughter's closest friend, starting from back in grade school...neither her or her younger brother knew any English at all. Both are very fluent now, but they both have accents. Both are American born. That's a new phenomena in America, and I don't think it's a good one.
Your ignorance of history is amazing, but not suprising.

You really believe the Irish & Italians & Poles & Swedes & Norwegians & Germans & Koreans & Chinese & Japanese immigrants etc didn't maintain their culture & language? Have you ever been to Chicago or New York or LA or Boston or any other large city with concentrations of immigrant groups?

Even in rural areas like where my ancestors lived in Minnesota there were numerous conclaves of Germans or Swedes or Norwegians. My paternal grandparents & their siblings all spoke German at home and went to country schools where almost all their classmates spoke German as their primary language as well; they went to churches where the service was in German. My dad only spoke German as a kid until they closed the country schools and he had to go to town school where he learned English; he still has a bit of a German accent. My maternal grandfather & his 15 siblings all spoke Norwegian at home and went to country schools where they all spoke Norwegian; they went to church where the service was in Norwegian. My mom spoke Norwegian at home but English at school.

Embracing & maintaining your heritage is VERY American.

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