The 6th Floor Blog: Behind the Cover Story: Robert Draper on Why the...

Feb 18, 2013 Full story: FiveThirtyEight 27

Robert Draper, a contributing writer for the magazine, wrote this week's cover article about the attempts by young conservatives to revamp the Republican Party.

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Dickweed

Santa Rosa Beach, FL

#21 Feb 19, 2013
Chicopee wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, I'll bet that's what the people of Germany were saying in the 1920's and 1930's when they allowed their government to disarm them. So modern, so savvy and so enlightened. Faux tyranny of the boogeyman was a scare tactic that modern, enlightened people were just too damned smart to believe. Collective power and equality for all beat the heck out of self determination and independence. What the hell did they need to be armed for? The repeated tyranny of the past is ancient history...it could never happen again, right?
True the Holocaust would have never happened it the Jew could have protected themselves with guns.
You try it. Get you a few guns and when the Soliers come toyour door tell them "I have a gun, I am protected" that should scare them off.
Chicopee

Danbury, CT

#23 Feb 19, 2013
Dickweed wrote:
<quoted text>
True the Holocaust would have never happened it the Jew could have protected themselves with guns.
You try it. Get you a few guns and when the Soliers come toyour door tell them "I have a gun, I am protected" that should scare them off.
An estimated eleven and a half million people were killed in the Holocaust...an estimated six million of them were Jewish. The rest weren't.
Do you honestly think every, or even half of the German people wanted to stand by idly while fellow citizens were hauled off or killed right before their eyes?
Do you not understand that many lived in fear of being next? Of uttering the wrong words? In fear of each other, their neighbors, the shoemaker down the street?
Do you think all German parents wanted to hand their children over to education camps, to be taught that their first priority and loyalty was to the Reich, where fourteen and fifteen year old girls were being purposely impregnated to advance the Arian race, then threatening to turn in their own parents when they protested? Do you think they wanted to hand over their sons to all fight and die?
Do you even have the slightest idea what happened in Germany?
Do you understand why Hitler didn't invade Switzerland (though it was twice attempted), but practically walked into nearly every other country they took over?
Then and now, nearly every household in Switzerland is armed with government issued firearms and rounds, that's why. A citizen militia. They could fight back.
Dickweed

Santa Rosa Beach, FL

#24 Feb 20, 2013
Chicopee wrote:
<quoted text>
An estimated eleven and a half million people were killed in the Holocaust...an estimated six million of them were Jewish. The rest weren't.
Do you honestly think every, or even half of the German people wanted to stand by idly while fellow citizens were hauled off or killed right before their eyes?
Do you not understand that many lived in fear of being next? Of uttering the wrong words? In fear of each other, their neighbors, the shoemaker down the street?
Do you think all German parents wanted to hand their children over to education camps, to be taught that their first priority and loyalty was to the Reich, where fourteen and fifteen year old girls were being purposely impregnated to advance the Arian race, then threatening to turn in their own parents when they protested? Do you think they wanted to hand over their sons to all fight and die?
Do you even have the slightest idea what happened in Germany?
Do you understand why Hitler didn't invade Switzerland (though it was twice attempted), but practically walked into nearly every other country they took over?
Then and now, nearly every household in Switzerland is armed with government issued firearms and rounds, that's why. A citizen militia. They could fight back.
The silliness of this argument is staggering.
But in essence you expect our government to allow us to have weapons without regulation, so that we can fight the government?
Armed civilians could not have stopped the holocaust. They would have made it messier, but not stopped it.
The real question is how do you kill 6 million Jews? The
Nazis did it peacefully. Having guns would not have helped much. Because most of the gypsies and Jews did not know to fight at the beginning.
This over-simplified Jews needed guns argument is cutesy and all but completely untrue. It was a slightly more complicated time then that.
Poland had guns, and an army, but the Nazis invaded.
France had an army and guns but Nazis invaded. The French resistance fought back, But they remained occupied.
The holocaust was going to happen regardless of how the Jewish population fought back.
Chicopee

Danbury, CT

#25 Feb 20, 2013
Dickweed wrote:
<quoted text>
The silliness of this argument is staggering.
But in essence you expect our government to allow us to have weapons without regulation, so that we can fight the government?
Armed civilians could not have stopped the holocaust. They would have made it messier, but not stopped it.
The real question is how do you kill 6 million Jews? The
Nazis did it peacefully. Having guns would not have helped much. Because most of the gypsies and Jews did not know to fight at the beginning.
This over-simplified Jews needed guns argument is cutesy and all but completely untrue. It was a slightly more complicated time then that.
Poland had guns, and an army, but the Nazis invaded.
France had an army and guns but Nazis invaded. The French resistance fought back, But they remained occupied.
The holocaust was going to happen regardless of how the Jewish population fought back.
Dickweed...how appropriate.
Two things. I never said that the government should allow us to have weapons without regulation.
And I said Germany, not Jews, though five and a half million non Jews were killed as well, but you glossed right over that. And you clearly have no idea what happened in Germany in the decade prior to the Holocaust.
Poland did have some guns and many Polish citizens resisted. Their army barely existed and was hastily assembled when Germany started saber rattling. They had limited supplies and were way out gunned and out trained by the Germans.
France had even less guns and practically no standing army, the resistance fighters were a tiny percentage and didn't have the support of their fellow countrymen...they were broke, as was most of Europe...you've heard of the Great Depression, right? What do governments cut first? Their militaries.
What did Switzerland not cut? Their military, which consists of citizens who are required to be armed by their government.
But the fact remains that by the time the German people realized what the intent of their government was, that government had complete control and they could do nothing except comply. And when the Russians came marching in at the end of the war, they were raped and murdered by the tens of thousands...they couldn't do anything about that, either, not even kill themselves before the Reds broke through their doors.
Why don't you crack open a history book and learn about the Communist and Nazi rise in Germany, the fight between those two powers, how it came about, what the Germans hoped to achieve by it and how it actually played out?
Dickweed

Santa Rosa Beach, FL

#26 Feb 21, 2013
Chicopee wrote:
<quoted text>
Dickweed...how appropriate.
Two things. I never said that the government should allow us to have weapons without regulation.
And I said Germany, not Jews, though five and a half million non Jews were killed as well, but you glossed right over that. And you clearly have no idea what happened in Germany in the decade prior to the Holocaust.
Poland did have some guns and many Polish citizens resisted. Their army barely existed and was hastily assembled when Germany started saber rattling. They had limited supplies and were way out gunned and out trained by the Germans.
France had even less guns and practically no standing army, the resistance fighters were a tiny percentage and didn't have the support of their fellow countrymen...they were broke, as was most of Europe...you've heard of the Great Depression, right? What do governments cut first? Their militaries.
What did Switzerland not cut? Their military, which consists of citizens who are required to be armed by their government.
But the fact remains that by the time the German people realized what the intent of their government was, that government had complete control and they could do nothing except comply. And when the Russians came marching in at the end of the war, they were raped and murdered by the tens of thousands...they couldn't do anything about that, either, not even kill themselves before the Reds broke through their doors.
Why don't you crack open a history book and learn about the Communist and Nazi rise in Germany, the fight between those two powers, how it came about, what the Germans hoped to achieve by it and how it actually played out?
No I do not know everything about WWII ad the Holocaust.
Using that as an argument to support the 2nd amendment is a little far fatched. Could it be possible that the NRA could maybe do their thing without bringing up Nazi Germenay?
Yes, it did happen, and yes it was bad, but armed civilians would not have stopped it, affected it yes, but saved millions???? No.
I just think trying to convince the government we need our guns to protect ourselves from the government is a dumb place for the argument to be.
Do you really beleive linking this current sitation to Nazi Germany is really valid? IT is a different time after all.
Not to mention, if the Jews did have thousands of guns, do you really think they would have been able to amass the ammunition necesary to stnd off against a real army for any length of time?
Probably not.
If superman would have crashed in the Black Forest of Bavaria instead of Smallville USA, and was raised by a nice rural Jewish family, then yes. Most likely the Holocaust would not have happened.
The other argument I don't think is any good is "criminals won't follow the law anyway"
Well that is pretty much true for EVERY law. We got prisons full of people who deceided to not follow a law or 2. Why do we have those laws?
The home protection thing and having a gun for your own safety are both good arguments for gun ownership, which unfortunately adds credence to the "Assault Rifle" issue.
Military weapons ar not the best for home protection, but they are cool andfun to shoot, and I believe we should be able to own 'em and shoot them legally, but I think maybe owners with these kinds of weapons should have to do something like register as a collector, and maybe even have to renew that lisence with some testing and evaluation every few years.
I don't think that is completely unreasonable.
But I'm sure someone will call me an Obama loving Nazi Communist over it.
But I'm getting used to that.
Chicopee

Danbury, CT

#27 Feb 21, 2013
Dickweed wrote:
<quoted text>
No I do not know everything about WWII ad the Holocaust.
Using that as an argument to support the 2nd amendment is a little far fatched. Could it be possible that the NRA could maybe do their thing without bringing up Nazi Germenay?
Yes, it did happen, and yes it was bad, but armed civilians would not have stopped it, affected it yes, but saved millions???? No.
I just think trying to convince the government we need our guns to protect ourselves from the government is a dumb place for the argument to be.
Do you really beleive linking this current sitation to Nazi Germany is really valid? IT is a different time after all.
Not to mention, if the Jews did have thousands of guns, do you really think they would have been able to amass the ammunition necesary to stnd off against a real army for any length of time?
Probably not.
If superman would have crashed in the Black Forest of Bavaria instead of Smallville USA, and was raised by a nice rural Jewish family, then yes. Most likely the Holocaust would not have happened.
The other argument I don't think is any good is "criminals won't follow the law anyway"
Well that is pretty much true for EVERY law. We got prisons full of people who deceided to not follow a law or 2. Why do we have those laws?
The home protection thing and having a gun for your own safety are both good arguments for gun ownership, which unfortunately adds credence to the "Assault Rifle" issue.
Military weapons ar not the best for home protection, but they are cool andfun to shoot, and I believe we should be able to own 'em and shoot them legally, but I think maybe owners with these kinds of weapons should have to do something like register as a collector, and maybe even have to renew that lisence with some testing and evaluation every few years.
I don't think that is completely unreasonable.
But I'm sure someone will call me an Obama loving Nazi Communist over it.
But I'm getting used to that.
"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not." -Thomas Jefferson

"When the People fear the government, there is tyranny. When governments fear the people, there is liberty." Thomas Jefferson

In 1911, Turkey established gun control.
1915 to 1917, 1.5 Armenians exterminated.

1929 Soviet Union established gun control.
1929 to 1953, over 20 million exterminated.

1935 China established gun control.
1948 to 1952 20 million exterminated.

1938 Germany established gun control
...you know the rest.

1956 Cambodia established gun control.
1975 to 1977 1 million exterminated.

1964 Guatemala established gun control.
1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayans exterminated.

1970 Uganda established gun control.
1971 to 1979 300,000 Christains exterminated.

That's just the 20th century...governments are allowed to run amok when citizens are disarmed or completely powerless to fight back, and you can find examples of this going all the way back to the Roman Empire and further.
The Founding Fathers were well versed in history, and that is why they established the 2nd Amendment, and there are ample writings and arguments that record their reasons why.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. A citizenry who aren't powerless help keep the powerful from having absolute power. History proves that over and over again.
Chicopee

Danbury, CT

#28 Feb 21, 2013
Dickweed wrote:
<quoted text>
No I do not know everything about WWII ad the Holocaust.
Using that as an argument to support the 2nd amendment is a little far fatched. Could it be possible that the NRA could maybe do their thing without bringing up Nazi Germenay?
Yes, it did happen, and yes it was bad, but armed civilians would not have stopped it, affected it yes, but saved millions???? No.
I just think trying to convince the government we need our guns to protect ourselves from the government is a dumb place for the argument to be.
Do you really beleive linking this current sitation to Nazi Germany is really valid? IT is a different time after all.
Not to mention, if the Jews did have thousands of guns, do you really think they would have been able to amass the ammunition necesary to stnd off against a real army for any length of time?
Probably not.
If superman would have crashed in the Black Forest of Bavaria instead of Smallville USA, and was raised by a nice rural Jewish family, then yes. Most likely the Holocaust would not have happened.
The other argument I don't think is any good is "criminals won't follow the law anyway"
Well that is pretty much true for EVERY law. We got prisons full of people who deceided to not follow a law or 2. Why do we have those laws?
The home protection thing and having a gun for your own safety are both good arguments for gun ownership, which unfortunately adds credence to the "Assault Rifle" issue.
Military weapons ar not the best for home protection, but they are cool andfun to shoot, and I believe we should be able to own 'em and shoot them legally, but I think maybe owners with these kinds of weapons should have to do something like register as a collector, and maybe even have to renew that lisence with some testing and evaluation every few years.
I don't think that is completely unreasonable.
But I'm sure someone will call me an Obama loving Nazi Communist over it.
But I'm getting used to that.
"Waiting periods are only a step. Registration is only a step. The prohibition of private firearms is the goal." -Janet Reno, U.S. Attorney General, 1993

"Our main agenda is to have all guns banned. We must use whatever means possible. It doesn't matter if you have to distort the facts or even lie. Our task of creating a socialized America can only succeed when those who would resist us have been totally disarmed."
Sara Brady, Chairman, Handgun Control Inc. to Senator Howard Metzenbaum Jan 1994

"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient and the world will follow our lead into the future." -Adolf Hitler, Chancellor, Germany 1933 (private gun ownership was outlawed five years later, and easy to enforce because all the guns were registered)

Americans have good reason to fear registration, just look at what the State of New York is currently trying to do. Hint: The word "confiscation" is being used in regards to law abiding firearm owners, who will be given a certain amount of time to hand over guns or magazines that exceed the new 7 round magazine limit before they send people to confiscate them.

There is no telling how differently things may or may not have gone in Germany if the people had any power to resist, or how the Nazi's or the Communist Party would have been deterred had the people not rendered themselves powerless. But what is known is that no government has exercised such tyranny over people who weren't powerless.

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