World outcry delays forced abortion in remote China

A Muslim Uighur woman who is more than six months pregnant remained under watch Friday in a hospital in China's far northwest, awaiting a forced abortion by authorities who don't want her to have a third child. Full Story
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pumpkin

Saint Paul, MN

#46 Nov 16, 2008
live and let live wrote:
1.) In my original post I laid out my case for why I believe that abortion is wrong, as as you mentioned in your reply, my argument hinges on my belief that what was being aborted is a child. My understanding is that you believe it isn't a child, rather a non-viable fetus. Again, I don't want to argue or convince...just to understand....to me, as I mentioned in my post, I think about my son...the ultrasound pictures we saw...the heart beat that began at 3 weeks which we eagerly listened to each week....and the defined clear human images we watched grow week by week, month by month, until he was born. I guess I don't understand what a non-viable fetus is....what makes it non-viable...why a fetus instead of a child....does non-viable mean not alive? How can it not be alive when it is proven to have a heartbeat...sense light..feel pain...recognize voices..etc. When do you believe viability begins and why?
2.) I agree with you that sex education, contraception, help, etc. are all valuable tools..and I support using each of these tools to reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies, support families, and assist in adoptions. However, while I wouldn't disagree with your comment that using these tools to reduce abortions is something that most people want....a line that I have often heard pro-choice individuals use in similar conversations...I fail to see the logic in making such an argument as a non pro-life advocate. Again, I would like to understand....not to insult or argue. I await your answer to my first question above to clarify what you personally believe....but I have heard others who have said they thought that it wasn't a child...it was not viable...it was a fetus....but that we can all agree that it would be great if education, etc, etc, could reduce the number of abortions. Every time I hear that, it strikes me as non-logical, but I haven't been able to ask the follow-up questions that would help me understand why people believe this. Simply put...if you don't believe it is a child, if you don't believe it is viable, if you really don't believe it is alive despite the items I listed above (heartbeat, sound, sight, pain,etc), if you believe it is an acceptable elective medical procedure to simply remove tissue....then while I would strongly disagree, I ccould logically understand why it would follow that YOU would believe abortion should not be restricted. What I don't understand is why someone would believe this, but then say it is a horrible decision...and that we can all agree that reducing this procedure is a good thing..etc. Is it appeasement? centrism? How can I logically be told that I am wrong about it being a living child, but then also be told it is a horrible decision and that we can all agree that reducing the number of the procedures is best. If it is as simple as I am understanding you believe it is....not life..not a child...then why the concern about how often it happens?
If hope you take the time to reply! I really am interested in your response and understanding your point of view.
Thanks
You say How can I logically be told that I am wrong about it being a living child, but then also be told it is a horrible decision and that we can all agree that reducing the number of the procedures is best. If it is as simple as I am understanding you believe it is....not life..not a child...then why the concern about how often it happens?

Again, another well written, well thought out post--kudos. You have mastered the art of not being too accusatory and yet asking a very good question in a very respectful way.

But unfortunately, I doubt you will get many answers because I don't think many people will really want to think of how they could possibly argue a response to this.

I'm curious to see what someone like Mellers, ZenBirdist, or Fed up would respectfully say.
Culture of Death

Minneapolis, MN

#47 Nov 16, 2008
The left aka:culture of death cries fake tears for each soldier killed but cheer abortion. Pl
ucking hypocrites.

Since: Apr 08

Twin Cities

#48 Nov 17, 2008
pumpkin wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm curious to see what someone like Mellers, ZenBirdist, or Fed up would respectfully say.
Greetings, Pumpkin. Live and Let Live did put out a very thoughtful and soul-searching post there, and I'm happy to respond earnestly to the best of my ability.
Let me first say that I am not pro-abortion, as has been assumed of me in the past. I also do not align completely with rabid pro-lifers. I stand on the ground of knowing that I don't know what the absolute right thing is in the horrible reality of abortion. My belief is that life does start at conception, life in the basic definition of dividing cells and a growing organism. My belief in God (not in the Bible specifically) plants my faith firmly in the realm of "harm none". Where I'm conflicted is in the knowledge that unwanted children are born to sorry circumstances where they never had a chance at a full life, even though they were brought to term and delivered. I wonder, if abortion were unavailable, what would become of many of those children? Is it worse to terminate in a quick medical procedure, or to bring a child into very un-nurturing circumstances? I don't know, I'm only a simple human with flawed views and a strong faith that my loving God has not abandoned the women facing that situation and the children who may or may not survive the decision.
Part of who I am and how I feel on this issue can be revealed by these facts: one of my stepchildren was born with multiple handicaps, known to his mother during the pregnancy. She was encouraged to terminate, but she held fast. At his birth, he was so frail and helpless, his disabilities quite obvious though in hindsight overestimated, that the team of doctors encouraged her to place him immediately into a state facility. Still, she held fast. During his first couple of years, he became very ill and knocked on death's door. The helpless little child somehow survived, and grew into a teenager. At that time, he was diagnosed with a terminal illness and given three years at the most to live. That was eight years ago, and although he has since been diagnosed with a SECOND terminal illness, he continues to beat the odds. He is a lucky boy, in that his mother wanted and loved him so much, she was willing to endure anything to protect and nurture him. If every unexpectedly pregnant woman had that kind of love and commitment to her children, abortion wouldn't even be an issue as it wouldn't be a considerable "choice".
The other fact is that my husband and I are helping as much as we can to take care of an infant born to a single woman who for financial reasons was considering abortion. Feeling that the expense of childcare was not a valid reason for abortion, we stepped in (along with another concerned individual) to make sure that the mother had the moral and practical support to raise her child. We love this little one and our lives are enriched and blessed because of his presence. It is all we knew to do when the issue of "pro-choice" became personal for us, knowing and loving this single mother as we do.
This post might not answer any questions directly, but it's an honest insight into where I stand on the issue and why.'Tis better to become involved with love than to act out in rage, and I can't think of anything where that's more true than this.
In peace,
Zen
Sense

Duluth, MN

#49 Nov 17, 2008
ZenBirdist wrote:
<quoted text>
Greetings, Pumpkin. Live and Let Live did put out a very thoughtful and soul-searching post there, and I'm happy to respond earnestly to the best of my ability.
Let me first say that I am not pro-abortion, as has been assumed of me in the past. I also do not align completely with rabid pro-lifers. I stand on the ground of knowing that I don't know what the absolute right thing is in the horrible reality of abortion. My belief is that life does start at conc
eption, life in the basic definition of dividing cells and a growing organism. My belief in God (not in the Bible specifically) plants my faith firmly in the realm of "harm none". Where I'm conflicted is in the knowledge that unwanted children are born to sorry circumstances where they never had a chance at a full life, even though they were brought to term and delivered. I wonder, if abortion were unavailable, what would become of many of those children? Is it worse to terminate in a quick medical procedure, or to bring a child into very un-nurturing circumstances? I don't know, I'm only a simple human with flawed views and a strong faith that my loving God has not abandoned the women facing that situation and the children who may or may not survive the decision.
Part of who I am and how I feel on this issue can be revealed by these facts: one of my stepchildren was born with multiple handicaps, known to his mother during the pregnancy. She was encouraged to terminate, but she held fast. At his birth, he was so frail and helpless, his disabilities quite obvious though in hindsight overestimated, that the team of doctors encouraged her to place him immediately into a state facility. Still, she held fast. During his first couple of years, he became very ill and knocked on death's door. The helpless little child somehow survived, and grew into a teenager. At that time, he was diagnosed with a terminal illness and given three years at the most to live. That was eight years ago, and although he has since been diagnosed with a SECOND terminal illness, he continues to beat the odds. He is a lucky boy, in that his mother wanted and loved him so much, she was willing to endure anything to protect and nurture him. If every unexpectedly pregnant woman had that kind of love and commitment to her children, abortion wouldn't even be an issue as it wouldn't be a considerable "choice".
The other fact is that my husband and I are helping as much as we can to take care of an infant born to a single woman who for financial reasons was considering abortion. Feeling that the expense of childcare was not a valid reason for abortion, we stepped in (along with another concerned individual) to make sure that the mother had the moral and practical support to raise her child. We love this little one and our lives are enriched and blessed because of his presence. It is all we knew to do when the issue of "pro-choice" became personal for us, knowing and loving this single mother as we do.
This post might not answer any questions directly, but it's an honest insight into where I stand on the issue and why.'Tis better to become involved with love than to act out in rage, and I can't think of anything where that's more true than this.
In peace,
Zen
This speaks more to your inner spirit than anything I have ever read on this forum.
Congratulations on not being afraid to open up and bare your soul for the whole world to see.
Good things happen to those who propagate good things Zen....
kat

River Falls, WI

#50 Nov 17, 2008
ZenBirdist wrote:
<quoted text>
Greetings, Pumpkin. Live and Let Live did put out a very thoughtful and soul-searching post there, and I'm happy to respond earnestly to the best of my ability.
Let me first say that I am not pro-abortion, as has been assumed of me in the past. I also do not align completely with rabid pro-lifers. I stand on the ground of knowing that I don't know what the absolute right thing is in the horrible reality of abortion. My belief is that life does start at conception, life in the basic definition of dividing cells and a growing organism. My belief in God (not in the Bible specifically) plants my faith firmly in the realm of "harm none". Where I'm conflicted is in the knowledge that unwanted children are born to sorry circumstances where they never had a chance at a full life, even though they were brought to term and delivered. I wonder, if abortion were unavailable, what would become of many of those children? Is it worse to terminate in a quick medical procedure, or to bring a child into very un-nurturing circumstances? I don't know, I'm only a simple human with flawed views and a strong faith that my loving God has not abandoned the women facing that situation and the children who may or may not survive the decision.
Part of who I am and how I feel on this issue can be revealed by these facts: one of my stepchildren was born with multiple handicaps, known to his mother during the pregnancy. She was encouraged to terminate, but she held fast. At his birth, he was so frail and helpless, his disabilities quite obvious though in hindsight overestimated, that the team of doctors encouraged her to place him immediately into a state facility. Still, she held fast. During his first couple of years, he became very ill and knocked on death's door. The helpless little child somehow survived, and grew into a teenager. At that time, he was diagnosed with a terminal illness and given three years at the most to live. That was eight years ago, and although he has since been diagnosed with a SECOND terminal illness, he continues to beat the odds. He is a lucky boy, in that his mother wanted and loved him so much, she was willing to endure anything to protect and nurture him. If every unexpectedly pregnant woman had that kind of love and commitment to her children, abortion wouldn't even be an issue as it wouldn't be a considerable "choice".
The other fact is that my husband and I are helping as much as we can to take care of an infant born to a single woman who for financial reasons was considering abortion. Feeling that the expense of childcare was not a valid reason for abortion, we stepped in (along with another concerned individual) to make sure that the mother had the moral and practical support to raise her child. We love this little one and our lives are enriched and blessed because of his presence. It is all we knew to do when the issue of "pro-choice" became personal for us, knowing and loving this single mother as we do.
This post might not answer any questions directly, but it's an honest insight into where I stand on the issue and why.'Tis better to become involved with love than to act out in rage, and I can't think of anything where that's more true than this.
In peace,
Zen
Zen - wow. Just...wow...
Peace to you and yours always.

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