Book remembers 834 men who died on WW...

Book remembers 834 men who died on WWII battleship

There are 47 comments on the Andover Advertiser story from Nov 25, 2012, titled Book remembers 834 men who died on WWII battleship. In it, Andover Advertiser reports that:

A BOOK remembering the 834 men who died on a Second World War battleship is now on permanent display in a Basingstoke church - thanks to the efforts of one of the survivors.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Andover Advertiser.

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I can read

Edinburgh, UK

#43 Nov 27, 2012
Dubbadub wrote:
<quoted text>
I don't condemn every member of the UK armed services. However, why shouldn't they be scrutinised? Why should the collusion with paramilitaries be swept under the carpet? I condemn any act that kills civilians. The British Army should be held to just as high a standard on this as anyone else. And when I read about the depths of collusion between many rogue elements of the British Army and paramilitaries who killed hundreds of innocent people for their religion I don't like it.
How would you feel if rogue members of the Irish Army were involved in bombings (mass slaughters) that killed innocent people in your country?
What was wrong with the Catholics in Northern Ireland having equality? What was wrong with peaceful marches to achieve this aim? Why were the Unionist leaders at the time so against it? Why were peaceful marches attacked with verocity. Mind you this was all before the British Army even got there.
So 'rogue elements' of the British army are the responsibility of the British army.

Is PIRA responsible for their rogue elements too or is that just another subject on which you are severely prejudiced?

After all, you've made plenty of posts in the past trying to disassociate one group who call themselves the IRA from numerous other splinter groups.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#44 Nov 27, 2012
I can read wrote:
<quoted text>
Back to the myth that Catholics in NI have less rights. Name one right a protestant has that a catholic doesn't.
<quoted text>
NI was created to ensure that the people in areas of your island which wanted to remain part of the UK could do so.
<quoted text>
So beyond the unionists being worse than the republicans and being responsible for the whole thing, you're also saying they're the only ones who are sectarian?
Obviously now the Catholics have equality. This wasn't the case in the 1960's. Hence the Civil Rights Movement. John Hume, people like that.

As for NI created for that purpose. You have to wait for my later post to truly understand. Basic fact which I will elaborate on more, is that the Loyalists in Ulster blocked an Irish Home Rule parliament within the UK back in 1912-1913. That was all the majority on the island wanted, a Home Rule Parliament with limited powers within the UK. And the Loyalists in Ulster blocked it. I will get back to that point with much more detail in my following posts.

No of course not. But who did the institutionalised sectarianism in NI benefit? The Protestants.

Anyway I have a lot of comments to post to you regarding the history of Ulster and Ireland in general in answer to one of your questions. I hope you read them in good faith.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#45 Nov 27, 2012
I can read wrote:
<quoted text>
So 'rogue elements' of the British army are the responsibility of the British army.
Is PIRA responsible for their rogue elements too or is that just another subject on which you are severely prejudiced?
After all, you've made plenty of posts in the past trying to disassociate one group who call themselves the IRA from numerous other splinter groups.
If I was putting the whole responsibility on the British Army, why would I mention rogue elements? Why would I make that distinction?

Of course. You need to read my future posts on this thread. I know you probably hate me for whatever reason, but in answer to your questions I am going to post the history behind what happened in Ulster and in Ireland.

I hope you read the comments I'm going to make in good faith, you can make your own mind up after that. I'm giving you the long historical run down as I think you may actually read it and not get into a sectarian hissy fit like others. Just read the future comments on the history I'm going to post, you can make your own mind up after that. I must also say that you can research the comments I will post soon and they will check out historically.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#46 Nov 27, 2012
I can read wrote:
-Why do you want to place all the blame on people in one area and of one religion?
I'm not placing the blame on all Protestants. I place the blame more on their leaders, the upper classes, the ones who had the most to lose by Catholics becoming equal.

In 1607 ''The Flight of the Earls'' happened. This was when the Irish nobility in Ulster were forced into exile abroad although some did remain. This left the English vast amounts of land in Ulster. It must be noted that Ulster at this time was the most Gaelic part of Ireland and had not been affected by the landings of the Vikings and Normans as the other provinces had. From 1607 Catholics were banned from holding public office, depite being the native people of the country.

Land all over Ulster was confiscated from the native Irish the plan of the plantation was to displace the native Irish from their land to end anymore uprisings. It was decided that the land was to be given to foreign settlers, the criteria was that they had to be English speaking and Protestant. By the 1630's there was over 80,000 ''British'' settlers in Ulster. This number continued to grow. In the 1640's the Native Irish rebelled as they wanted their ancestoral lands back, the settlers resisted. There were massacres on both sides.

This period 1641-1653 is known as the Irish Confederate Wars. The Irish Catholic Confederation was allied with the English Royalists against the Parliamentarian forces and the colonial settlers. The war was waged for years, with between 200,000-400,000 killed ending in the Parliamentarians (New Model Army landed 1649) victory in 1653. Many Irish were sent abroad as slaves afterwards. This solidified British domination in Ireland, and more importantly to our discussion, Ulster. Cromwell brought in the Act of Settlement in 1652 which declared that anyone who had resided in Ireland any time from 1 October 1649, to 1 March 1650 and had not ''manifested their constant good affection to the interest of the Commonwealth of England'' lost one-third of their land. Those who had fought against the Parliament in Ulster were to lose all their land. The Catholic land owning class was totally destroyed.

Some 10,000 New Model Army soldiers were given land in Ulster. A few thousand didn't want to stay, so some of the Protestant settlers who were already there availed of this land and took it. Many of the natives who once owned the land then worked on their ancestoral land as tenants to Protestant settlers.

Then of course the Williamite War came to Ireland. James was defeated. This further solidified Protestant power in Ulster. A power that is only now beginning to wane.

The Penal Laws were introduced to discriminate against Catholics and also Presbyterians.

Some of these laws were:

Ban on intermarriage with protestants

Ban from Catholics being elected to Irish Parliament or English Parliament

Catholics banned from voting

Ban on Catholics entering Trinity College Dublin (Only Irish university at the time)

Ban from converting from Protestantism to Catholicism

Ban on Catholics inheriting Protestant land

Ban on Catholics owning a horse worth more than £5

Ban on Catholics teaching

Catholic population had to pay 10% of their agricultural produce to fund the Anglican Church

This brings us up to the 1700's.

More to follow.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#47 Nov 27, 2012
The Presbyterians were allowed more freedoms than Catholics, such as the right to sit in parliament (but not hold office). By the 1700's the Catholic % of land ownership was 5%. It must also be noted that many Protestants from Scotland came in the late 1600’s fleeing from famine. Throughout the 1700's there was a push by Irish Catholics to have their rights back. In the late 1700's some rights began to be returned. Many Irish Parliamentarians (Protestant) wanted the Irish Parliament to have legislative independence from England. In 1782 more freedom was given to the Irish Parliament. However Catholics were still banned from voting and sitting in Parliament.

In 1793 Catholics could again vote, but were still banned from running for election. Due to the restrictions placed on Catholics and to a lesser extent Presbyterians and inspired by the French Revolution a group of radical Protestants formed the United Irishmen. A group made up of people from all religions dedicated to end religious discrimination and to let more people vote.

According to their leader a Protestant named Theobald Wolfe Tone the goals were to ''break the link with England our never ending source of political evils'' and to put forward the case of unity between ''Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter'' to be free Irishmen.

Radical Loyalists threatened by this, set up the Orange Order in 1795. Wolfe Tone and the United Irishmen wanted a Republic free of religious discrimination. As he put it ''To subvert the tyranny of our execrable government, to break the connection with England, the never-failing source of all our political evils, and to assert the independence of my country, these were my objects. To unite the whole people of Ireland, to abolish the memory of past dissensions, and to substitute the common name of Irishman, in place of the denominations of Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter''

Due to the continuing religious discrimination and the continued existence of the oppressive penal laws the United Irishmen decided to rise up against British rule in Ireland. This was a massive group of people who comprised Catholics, Protestants, Presbyterians, Methodists etc. Wolfe Tone sought the support of the French, which he received. A planned landing in Ireland of Wolfe Tone backed by 14,000 French troops had to be aborted in 1796 due to storms, Tone remarked ''England has had its luckiest escape since the Armada.''

Sporadic uprisings took place throughout 1797. The Rebellion itself started in 1798. It lasted four months in total. Many massacres were carried out by all sides. However the United Irishmen and their supporters were killed in the biggest numbers. At the end of every British victory the remaining UI forces were usually massacred. Those taken prisoner were executed for being traitors to the crown. A fact many may not know is that many Protestants and Catholics in Ulster fought together on this side of the United Irishmen. Although the British Government actively tried to create sectarian tension between them.

Wolfe Tone himself led a force of 3000 from France, they were intercepted at Donegal by the British and never managed to land onshore. Wolfe Tone was sentanced to a criminals death of hanging not a death by firing squad. At his court martial he claimed

''The English government having determined not to respect my rights as a French citizen and officer, and summoned me before a court martial, I have been sentenced to death ... I have served the Republic faithfully, and my death, as well as that of my brother, a victim like myself, and condemned in the same manner about a month ago, will sufficiently prove it ... I have sacrificed for the Republic all that man holds dear - my wife, my children, my liberty, my life''

''Many suffer so that some day all Irish people may know justice and peace''

He slit his throat rather than be hanged. A man who brought Irish people of different religions together to try build a Republic free of sectarianism

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#48 Nov 27, 2012
It must be noted that many Protestant Loyalists fought against the United Irishmen in battle. Many Protestants were also United Irishmen. Anyway the British then created the Acts of Union 1800 which brought the Irish and British parliaments together. They were afraid of the ideas of Catholic Emancipation and afraid that if Catholics (majority of the country) were allowed to sit in the Irish parliament then the country may have fully split from British influence. Although the Irish Protestants (only ones allowed) in the Irish Parliament first rejected the act, they accepted the second time, due to the bribery of titles etc.

Although due to the Loyalist crack down on the rebellion and the massacres committed, the British thought this act may actually act to heal wounds. Also many Catholics were hopeful that the act would lead to Catholic emancipation. The Presbyterians were brought into the Protestant Ascendancy (ruling class) while the Catholics had to wait for emancipation until 1829. Only a minority of Irish Catholics were allowed to vote after this.

Henry Grattan a Protestant and supporter of Catholic rights who did all he could to keep a seperate Irish parliament once remarked:

''The Irish Protestant could never be free until the Irish Catholic ceased to be a slave''

Daniel O'Connell successfully led the Irish Catholics to their emancipation in 1829. The Commons was usually in support of it, the Lords wasn't but they were rattled by public opinion in Ireland, and fear of another war there. The obligation to support the Anglican church in Ireland however remained, this wasn't abolished until 1869, however it had been wound down in the years beforehand due to a large civil disobedience campaign against the tax.

There was always a feeling in Ireland throughout the 1800's that more power was needed over her domestic affairs. Up until the 1870's there was no political movement that called for this. O'Connel had his Repeal Movement in the 1840's that called for the repeal of the acts of union, but this failed.

Isaac Butt, a Protestant Dublin barrister, once a prominent Tory, set up the Home Rule League in 1870 with the aim of Irish Home Rule within the UK. It was less a political party, more a loosely alligned movement of politicians with the same aim. In the 1874 General Election it won 59 seats. Butt died, Charles Stewart Parnell a Protestant land owner took over the party. In the 1880 they won 62 out of the 103 Irish seats at Westminster. He replaced this party and set up the Irish Parliamentary Party in 1882. The party had the same goals, legislative independence for Ireland within the UK. Between 1880 and 1885 voting rights were extended to more Catholics. In the 1885 General Election the IPP won 85 of the 103 Irish seats (including one in Liverpool) making them the third largest party in Westminster.

Prime Minister Gladstone supported Irish Home Rule. He made a famous long speech in parliament calling for them to pass the Irish Government Bill of 1886 and grant Ireland a devolved assembly in honour rather than in eventual humiliation one day. The Bill failed in the House of Commons. Loyalists in Portadown attacked a Catholic area in ''celebration'' of its defeat. This also happened in Belfast.

Gladstone lost power but was re-elected again in 1892 and brought forward the Second Home Rule Bill (1892). This time the bill was passed in the Commons but rejected by the Lords which was controlled by the Conservative Party.

The Irish Home Rule MP's contiuned to be a powerful force in Westminster and always won the large majority of seats in the Irish elections for Westminster. In 1910 they would finally have the power to be able to get a Home Rule Bill that had every chance of being passed.

Since: Nov 10

Dublin

#49 Nov 27, 2012
More to follow tomorrow.

We'll find out then what the Ulster Unionists reaction to peaceful parliamentary politics was......

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