Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Oct 12, 2011 | Posted by: roboblogger | Full story: CNN

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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concerned in Egypt

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#20484
Feb 20, 2013
 
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Ohh, I'm sorry about that. This all makes sense now. I see why you were responding the way you did. My point and case were not that Jesus saw God hence God has flesh. My point was that Jesus Christ said that he has done nothing except he has seen the father do it. In other words, if Christ came to have a body, God must have done that at some time too.
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
Wow you really half to take Jesus's words out of Context to come up with that conclusion.

If I say I am only doing that which my President is doing that does not mean I am black if he is. But that is exaclty how you illogic works.

YOU clearly have no clue what metaphor Simille is.

But that is here nor there for the purpose of this thread.

Again the FACT LDS use this verse out of context to justify your 19th century doctrine that previous was unheard of and never taught or believed by Christians for 1900 years continuously before proves in of itself you and LDS are not Christians.
concerned in Egypt

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#20485
Feb 20, 2013
 
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
The above quoted text sounds like a dodge, but I'll roll with it. My point is, you can't say our view of God being visible is "unChristian" when we can back it up in the Bible. But perhaps that is debatable and such a discussion would be a rabbit trail leading off the topic of this forum.
A few questions I would like answered:
Note: I apologize if you have answered these questions previously on this forum. I simply don't have the time or patience to sift through the last few hundred pages I missed.
-How would YOU define a Christian and why?
-What is your religious background?
-How did you come to your belief in your faith?
-Do you think our loving Savior would tell me that I am not a Christian?
-Do you think I am going to hell? Why?
-How can I be saved?(Not applicable if you don't think I need saving)
I hope that by answering these questions we can get to the meat of this forums topic.
Thanks!
The forum is about whether LDS Mormons are Christian.

It is not about me.
My definition of Christian is irrelevant.
My religious background is irrelevant.
Whether you are going to hell or not is irrelevant that's your choice.
How you are saved is irrelevant to this forum other than the fact how Christians have believed one is saved for the last 2000 years differs from how Mormons believed one is saved for the past 180 years of so.

My post and Posts that you have posted to are not a dodge as you try to imply as you ignore the 6 pages of LDS prophets and apostles I quoted teaching contray to what again Christians have taught for 2000 years.

Christianity is defined in the Bible not me it is defined by what Christians believed and taught in the Bible.
LDS teachings directly contradict it.

For one the Bible teaches there is only one REAL God and Christians have been and are monotheistic. LDS are polytheistic and believe in many REAL Gods and thus are not Christian.

Shall I continue with the facts.
concerned in Egypt

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#20486
Feb 20, 2013
 
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
I totally agree with Matthew 22:30. In heaven we can't marry. It doesn't say anything about not being married if already married.
Peter says we will be married when he says that the husband and wife will be "heirs together of the grace of life" in 1 Peter 3:7
How can we be heirs together in heaven when we no longer have that marital relationship?
ARE you that daft read

Ro 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Tit 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Heb 6:17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.

Heb 11:9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

1Pe 3:7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers

They are heirs because they both have faith in Jesus the Christ.

NOT because they are married.

The verse says they won't be married they will be like the Angles
Marriage ends at death.

Again I could give you full lesson on this from the Bible scripture but that not the threads Premise.

What is if if Mormons are Christians and again because you believe contrary to what Christians believe today and Yesterday all the way to 33 AD you are not Christian.

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#20487
Feb 20, 2013
 
concerned in Egypt wrote:
"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins ... This is loving our neighbor as ourselves, if he needs help, help him, and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 220).[Many were killed under what is called the "Blood Atonement Doctrine" Leaving Mormonism was one of the sins that the blood of Jesus could not atone for, and a person's own blood must be shed by Mormon priests as an atonement for sin.]
"I intend to meet them on their own grounds.... and if any miserable scoundrel comes here, cut their throats." [And they obeyed; a wagon train of innocent men, women, and children were massacred at Mountain Meadows under the orders of Brigham Young. They were passing through Utah, and Brigham thought they were from Illinois where Joseph Smith had been killed. Many more were "atoned."]
You have a contradiction in the above between what Young states and what the narrator states, did you know that?
The narrator claims that wagon train massacre was done for blood atonement.
Unfortunately Young declared the only way blood atonement could happen was by slicing a person's throat.
See, the people in that wagon train massacre were killed by bullets. Many were stabbed. The deed was done quickly, meaning they didn't have the time or cooperation of the people in the wagon train to ask them to all line up so they could quickly slit open every one's throats for their blood atonement doctrine. Understand?
So the massacre wasn't done for reasons concerning the blood atonement doctrine. People were stabbed and shot to death in as hurried of a manner as was possible.
So explain from your sources, how that massacre was done for blood atonement if it wasn't done as Young stated it had to be done.
By the way, please give evidence of all these blood atonement killings the narrator and Young spoke of having taken place.

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#20489
Feb 20, 2013
 
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Go whine somewhere else, I don't care.
lol...you won't answer the question because you'll have to reveal some of your own anti-Mormon crap. At least we agree here :)

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#20490
Feb 20, 2013
 

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Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
If your god has limits, that is your problem. The God that can create heaven and the earth can certainly sit down and have lunch with Abraham. How "fricking" pathetic are you? LOL!!!
You realize A. you jumped into a conversation that as usual you had not a clue of what was being discussed and B. you keep dissing Egypt with your pathetic replies, not me lol.

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#20491
Feb 20, 2013
 

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concerned in Egypt wrote:
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No they LDS have not always taught we have the same form as Spirits as we do our physical bodies but hey if I am wrong quote your MORMON Scriptures that prove me wrong. Redeemer no fringe or unofficial LDS documents.
I await your proof.
But the point was not if LDS teach it, the point that you did a dance around is Christians have never taught it from Christianity's inception till today.
That is why Mormons are not Christians
They have taught that. Maybe you should begin with this reference as spoken by Smith himself so you can have some clarification on the matter. Please read it all.
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_t...

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#20492
Feb 20, 2013
 

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concerned in Egypt wrote:
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No they LDS have not always taught we have the same form as Spirits as we do our physical bodies but hey if I am wrong quote your MORMON Scriptures that prove me wrong. Redeemer no fringe or unofficial LDS documents.
I await your proof.
But the point was not if LDS teach it, the point that you did a dance around is Christians have never taught it from Christianity's inception till today.
That is why Mormons are not Christians
Now consider the following from a guy that had not a day of schooling in the sciences. please read the link so you'll read the comments below in context okay?
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Matter
..
"The elements are eternal" (D&C 93:33). "The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity" (Joseph Smith, in HC 3:387).
..
Addressing the issue of creation ex nihilo, Joseph Smith asserted in one of his final sermons: "Now, the word create…does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos-chaotic matter, which is element…. Element had an existence from the time [God] had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and reorganized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end" (HC 6:308-309).
..
Extending the concept of the eternal nature of matter to the substance of spirit, Joseph Smith revealed, "There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; we cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter" (D&C 131:7-8).
..
Parley P. Pratt, an apostle and close associate of Joseph Smith, wrote, "Matter and spirit are the two great principles of all existence. Everything animate and inanimate is composed of one or the other, or both of these eternal principles…. Matter and spirit are of equal duration; both are self-existent, they never began to exist, and they never can be annihilated…. Matter as well as spirit is eternal, uncreated, self existing. However infinite the variety of its changes, forms and shapes; …eternity is inscribed in indelible characters on every particle" (HC 4:55).

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#20493
Feb 20, 2013
 

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concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
No they LDS have not always taught we have the same form as Spirits as we do our physical bodies but hey if I am wrong quote your MORMON Scriptures that prove me wrong. Redeemer no fringe or unofficial LDS documents.
I await your proof.
But the point was not if LDS teach it, the point that you did a dance around is Christians have never taught it from Christianity's inception till today.
That is why Mormons are not Christians
This link should help you to further understand Mormon thought on our pre-existence ...
http://thepierianspring.wordpress.com/2010/02...
..
Spiritual Creation, 1830-1832

In the Latter-day Saint tradition, the first inkling of a preexistence seems to appear in Joseph Smith’s re-translation of the Bible and particularly the Genesis account.2

For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.... And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.(Book of Moses 3:5-7. June – October 1830)(emphasis added).
..
Uncreated Intelligence, Eternal Elements, 1833

At Kirtland Ohio, on May 6, 1833, Joseph received the following revelation:

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.... For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy.(D&C 93:29, 33).
..
“we see an unambiguous Mormon doctrine of fully individualized, pre-mortal humans.”12 God explains to Abraham:

[I]f there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.... These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.(Book of Abraham 3:18-19).
..
The Abrahamic account reveals that man is an eternal spirit, without beginning or end. Although the Book of Abraham would not be published in the Times and Seasons until in 1842, the import of the text was clear to Joseph Smith: spirits were uncreated. In fact, Joseph would consistently preach on the eternal nature of spirits.

c. August 1839:“The Spirit of Man is not a created being; it existed from eternity and will exist to eternity.”

February 1840:“I believe that the soul is eternal; and had no beginning.”

January 1841:“If the soul of man had a beginning it will surely have an end.... Spirits are eternal.”

March 1841:“The spirit or the inteligence of men are self Existent principles.”

April 1842:“the spirits of men are eternal.”13

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#20494
Feb 20, 2013
 

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concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
No they LDS have not always taught we have the same form as Spirits as we do our physical bodies
Now for some Mormon info of what you inquired about :)
...
http://thepierianspring.wordpress.com/2010/02...
..
But if man is eternal, what is the point of a tabernacle? In early 1841, on the 5th of January, Joseph further expounded his views on spirits and bodies.

The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The Devil has no body, and herein is his punishment.... All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him.14

That same month, William Patterson McIntire, briefly sketched the following in his notebook:“Next Meeting-Joseph said that before foundation of the Earth in the Grand Counsel that the Spirits of all Men ware subject to opression & the express purpose of God in Giveing it a tabernicle was to arm it against the power of Darkness-for instance Jesus said Get behind me Satan. Also the apostle said Resist the Devil & he will flee from you”(January 19, 1841).15
..
Spirit is Substance and Social Organization, 1842-1843

Revelations continued. Joseph explained in March 1, 1842:“We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.”16

In a Times and Seasons editorial “Try the Spirits” April 1842, Joseph further explicated the nature of spirits and taught, against traditional understandings, that spirit is not immaterial, but material.17 How early Joseph held this view is not clear.

[T]he body is supposed to be organized matter, and the spirit by many is thought to be immaterial, without substance. With this latter statement we should beg leave to differ-and state that spirit is a substance; that it is material, but that it is more pure, elastic, and refined matter than the body;-that it existed before the body, can exist in the body, and will exist separate from the body, when the body will be mouldering in the dust; and will in the resurrection be again united with it.18

While the spirit is a substance, it seems clear that Joseph believed a spirit isn’t a tabernacle and that without one spirits are vulnerable against the power of darkness. There is something unique in a tabernacle, not only for protection, but also in experiencing happiness and joy.19
..
After the death of Joseph Smith, many would understand Joseph’s statements to mean that if the body is organized matter, the spirit is also organized matter. Yet, Joseph declines to draw this connection and despite teaching that spirit has substance, Joseph persists to teach that spirits are uncreated.“Joseph Smith,” Harrell insists,“makes no mention of these uncreated spirits ever undergoing a change of state, such as spirit birth, prior to entering the physical body.”20 Indeed, Joseph seems to have understood the Book of Abraham to teach not a material organization, but a social one.

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.(Abraham 3:22-23).

Consistent with the Abrahamic account, Joseph taught in 1839,“The Father called all spirits before him at the creation of Man & organized them.”21 Even after revealing that spirit is substance, Joseph would continue to teach that God calls the spirits and then organizes them.22

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

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#20495
Feb 20, 2013
 
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
Dana makes all these statements are designed to bait people...
then when he hooks someone, he picks and chooses what part of an entire post he will attack
---
He is a master manipulator.
He doesn't care who he hurts because his drive comes from his own personal quote:
<quoted text>
If what I say hurts, it's because the truth can hurt.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

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#20496
Feb 20, 2013
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You realize A. you jumped into a conversation that as usual you had not a clue of what was being discussed and B. you keep dissing Egypt with your pathetic replies, not me lol.
Really? Because I have never read a post from him that denies that God could have lunch if he so desired.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

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#20497
Feb 20, 2013
 

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No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
lol...you won't answer the question because you'll have to reveal some of your own anti-Mormon crap. At least we agree here :)
You're idiot if you see agreement in our posts,.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

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#20498
Feb 20, 2013
 
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Dana,
Where did you read that you can find similar statements in every Ensign?
I am sitting in my home at this moment looking at page 3 of my Ensign. A section says "The Ensign is published monthly by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..." There is no disclaimer.
The Ensign IS published by the Church.
There isn't one in the current Ensign. But I have seen them.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

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#20499
Feb 20, 2013
 

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sportxmouse wrote:
Dana said
"I would crucify Jesus Christ himself if he taught polygamy to the Jews"
Dana... is a self serving manipulative life term blogger who lies about truths. She/He does everything because of personal
Agenda.
You need to stop lying Carol. It won't save your church. And if you are going to quote me, please do so in context.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

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#20500
Feb 20, 2013
 
sportxmouse wrote:
Dana... SAME QUESTION?
HOW MANY GOD's are we discussing again?
Are you really to ignorant to realize that God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
We have 1 Heavenly Father.... he is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
No you don't, he use to be a man.
It's the different religion sects that are different!
What is wrong with you.
IF YOU WOULD CLICK ON A LINK OCCASIONALLY AND RESEARCH FACTS you would understand how all the different religions came to exist in the dark ages until Jesus restored HIS Church.
You're so angry that you can't see logic anymore.
Jesus said he will build his church and the gates of hades shall not over come it. I believe Jesus, not Joseph.
concerned in Egypt

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#20502
Feb 21, 2013
 

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No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You have a contradiction in the above between what Young states and what the narrator states, did you know that?
The narrator claims that wagon train massacre was done for blood atonement.
Unfortunately Young declared the only way blood atonement could happen was by slicing a person's throat.
See, the people in that wagon train massacre were killed by bullets. Many were stabbed. The deed was done quickly, meaning they didn't have the time or cooperation of the people in the wagon train to ask them to all line up so they could quickly slit open every one's throats for their blood atonement doctrine. Understand?
So the massacre wasn't done for reasons concerning the blood atonement doctrine. People were stabbed and shot to death in as hurried of a manner as was possible.
So explain from your sources, how that massacre was done for blood atonement if it wasn't done as Young stated it had to be done.
By the way, please give evidence of all these blood atonement killings the narrator and Young spoke of having taken place.
Who
CARES?

Either way its not Christian, your ship is sinking and burning at the same time and you are worried what time lunch is.
concerned in Egypt

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#20503
Feb 21, 2013
 

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No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
lol...you won't answer the question because you'll have to reveal some of your own anti-Mormon crap. At least we agree here :)
What's wrong with being Anti-Mormon.
I am Anti-Mormon because Mormons are Anti-Truth and Anti-Christian and J.S. as was B.Y. were both Anti-Christ.

J.S. B.Y. and yourself are all anti-Christian
You believe we are all of the Devil and all apostate if we are to believe your leaders.

I am also anti-lie
I am also anti-murder
I am also anti-Adultry
I am also anti-racist

To be anti in of itself does not make one a bad person as you can see and if your are anti-Mormon it means your are of good character and sound theology.
concerned in Egypt

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#20504
Feb 21, 2013
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
They have taught that. Maybe you should begin with this reference as spoken by Smith himself so you can have some clarification on the matter. Please read it all.
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_t...
I have read it all many times before I own a copy.

Still waiting for your teaching on our spirits looking the same as our bodies do now from offical LDS scripture.

STILLLLL WAITINGGGGG
concerned in Egypt

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#20505
Feb 21, 2013
 
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
Now for some Mormon info of what you inquired about :)
...
http://thepierianspring.wordpress.com/2010/02...
..
But if man is eternal, what is the point of a tabernacle? In early 1841, on the 5th of January, Joseph further expounded his views on spirits and bodies.
The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The Devil has no body, and herein is his punishment.... All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him.14
That same month, William Patterson McIntire, briefly sketched the following in his notebook:“Next Meeting-Joseph said that before foundation of the Earth in the Grand Counsel that the Spirits of all Men ware subject to opression & the express purpose of God in Giveing it a tabernicle was to arm it against the power of Darkness-for instance Jesus said Get behind me Satan. Also the apostle said Resist the Devil & he will flee from you”(January 19, 1841).15
..
Spirit is Substance and Social Organization, 1842-1843
Revelations continued. Joseph explained in March 1, 1842:“We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.”16
In a Times and Seasons editorial “Try the Spirits” April 1842, Joseph further explicated the nature of spirits and taught, against traditional understandings, that spirit is not immaterial, but material.17 How early Joseph held this view is not clear.
[T]he body is supposed to be organized matter, and the spirit by many is thought to be immaterial, without substance. With this latter statement we should beg leave to differ-and state that spirit is a substance; that it is material, but that it is more pure, elastic, and refined matter than the body;-that it existed before the body, can exist in the body, and will exist separate f

--cut for space and because its all SPAM to boot.
The only conclusion we can come to is you are a liar as you still have not posted a quote from LDS scripture that states we had Spirits that look like our Bodies do now.

Hey dumb dumb just wondering have you really thought this one through.

Did our Spirits look like us when we were 2 months old, 2 years old 20 years old or 45 years old or 98 years old.

Yeh you are a dumb dumb that is clear and not a Christian to boot.

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