Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

There are 32007 comments on the CNN story from Oct 12, 2011, titled Who says Mormons aren't Christians?. In it, CNN reports that:

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CNN.

Since: Sep 12

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#20478 Feb 20, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
That sounds very nice and is quite interesting its Mormon Doctrine but not Christian
Christians 2000 Years ago believed the following and we believe it today.
Mt 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Angels in heaven are not married.
Another irrefutable fact why Mormons are not Christians they are MORMONS.
I totally agree with Matthew 22:30. In heaven we can't marry. It doesn't say anything about not being married if already married.

Peter says we will be married when he says that the husband and wife will be "heirs together of the grace of life" in 1 Peter 3:7

How can we be heirs together in heaven when we no longer have that marital relationship?

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20479 Feb 20, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
This is one case in which I will answer your question with a question that to which I am not to found of doing.
HOW COULD Abraham recongnize somebody he had never seen before right of the Bat??
When you answer that question you will have the answer to your question.
REMEMBER he had never seen Jesus before.
REMEMBER even by LDS teachings Jesus did not dwell in the flesh or have flesh till the Incarnation when his flesh was born to Mary.
YOU have not thought this through take some time.
Answer:
1. The spirit takes a form
2. Spirit/holy ghost testifies

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20480 Feb 20, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
You can find a similar statement in every Ensign. The church has been bitten in the butt so many times by it's own publications they make such claims in almost every publication to have a cop out. In the 60's and 70's "Mormon Doctrine" was a must have for every member of the church and could be found in most of their homes.
Dana,
Where did you read that you can find similar statements in every Ensign?

I am sitting in my home at this moment looking at page 3 of my Ensign. A section says "The Ensign is published monthly by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..." There is no disclaimer.

The Ensign IS published by the Church.

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#20481 Feb 20, 2013
lamer wrote:
So what i got out of this thread seems to be that the Mormons consider themselves to be christians yet, everyone disagrees with them.
Pretty much.

I think I have the right to say I'm a Christian.

I believe in God and I believe in Christ, he is my Savior, and his sacrifice is the only thing that is going to allow me to get into Heaven.

Yet some people are telling me that believing that is not enough to call yourself a Christian.
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20482 Feb 20, 2013
Father overtime wrote:
<quoted text>
Faith matters more than your supposed truth that you pretend to comprehend liar.
Actually you are once again in error.

Faith in a lie is suicide.
Faith in Truth is LIFE>

They go hand in hand if you are missing either on of them you are missing everything,

Jesus is the Truth and the way.
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20483 Feb 20, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You dodged the question and not well. But I understand why you dodged it :)
You stated the following...
"These are excellent points you bring up here.
You are welcome to your LDS view on them.
But here is the kicker.
For over 2000 years all Christians have believed that Jesus did as he saw the father do with his spiritual eyes. Even the LDS teach Jesus did not have bodily form in heaven he got his body when he came to earth.
Thus even by LDS teaching Jesus never had seen God the father with eyes of flesh before his incarnation and even then not until he ascended.
So even by your own teachings the ONLY way Jesus could do what the Father was doing was by spiritual means. Thus your conclusion that God the Father was flesh is illogical and erroneous."
Your first error is the LDS have always taught that even as spirits, we all had the same shape and form as our physical bodies encompass. That our spirits had a trunk, head, arms and legs and genitalia but that the spirit was of a purer material then what the body is made of.
So the premise of your whole argument is incorrect and wrong because you stated it on information that was incorrect and wrong.
The LDS believe God the Father and God the mother came here from another time and space in bodies of flesh and bone, to create all that exists because it was their time to be Gods of their own time and space and worlds they would create.
And that is how the LDS believe that Jesus saw what the Father did and knew what to do besides the fact that he learned all he knew how to do from the Father by word and deed.
So by the LDS teachings, to them it is not illogical and erroneous to believe they are and can be as their creator in word and deed and substance and shape and form.
You have to base your argument/debate on how the LDS actually believe and teach to have a good argumant/debate, just saying :)
No they LDS have not always taught we have the same form as Spirits as we do our physical bodies but hey if I am wrong quote your MORMON Scriptures that prove me wrong. Redeemer no fringe or unofficial LDS documents.

I await your proof.

But the point was not if LDS teach it, the point that you did a dance around is Christians have never taught it from Christianity's inception till today.

That is why Mormons are not Christians
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20484 Feb 20, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Ohh, I'm sorry about that. This all makes sense now. I see why you were responding the way you did. My point and case were not that Jesus saw God hence God has flesh. My point was that Jesus Christ said that he has done nothing except he has seen the father do it. In other words, if Christ came to have a body, God must have done that at some time too.
I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
Wow you really half to take Jesus's words out of Context to come up with that conclusion.

If I say I am only doing that which my President is doing that does not mean I am black if he is. But that is exaclty how you illogic works.

YOU clearly have no clue what metaphor Simille is.

But that is here nor there for the purpose of this thread.

Again the FACT LDS use this verse out of context to justify your 19th century doctrine that previous was unheard of and never taught or believed by Christians for 1900 years continuously before proves in of itself you and LDS are not Christians.
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20485 Feb 20, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
The above quoted text sounds like a dodge, but I'll roll with it. My point is, you can't say our view of God being visible is "unChristian" when we can back it up in the Bible. But perhaps that is debatable and such a discussion would be a rabbit trail leading off the topic of this forum.
A few questions I would like answered:
Note: I apologize if you have answered these questions previously on this forum. I simply don't have the time or patience to sift through the last few hundred pages I missed.
-How would YOU define a Christian and why?
-What is your religious background?
-How did you come to your belief in your faith?
-Do you think our loving Savior would tell me that I am not a Christian?
-Do you think I am going to hell? Why?
-How can I be saved?(Not applicable if you don't think I need saving)
I hope that by answering these questions we can get to the meat of this forums topic.
Thanks!
The forum is about whether LDS Mormons are Christian.

It is not about me.
My definition of Christian is irrelevant.
My religious background is irrelevant.
Whether you are going to hell or not is irrelevant that's your choice.
How you are saved is irrelevant to this forum other than the fact how Christians have believed one is saved for the last 2000 years differs from how Mormons believed one is saved for the past 180 years of so.

My post and Posts that you have posted to are not a dodge as you try to imply as you ignore the 6 pages of LDS prophets and apostles I quoted teaching contray to what again Christians have taught for 2000 years.

Christianity is defined in the Bible not me it is defined by what Christians believed and taught in the Bible.
LDS teachings directly contradict it.

For one the Bible teaches there is only one REAL God and Christians have been and are monotheistic. LDS are polytheistic and believe in many REAL Gods and thus are not Christian.

Shall I continue with the facts.
concerned in Egypt

Aberdeen, UK

#20486 Feb 20, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
I totally agree with Matthew 22:30. In heaven we can't marry. It doesn't say anything about not being married if already married.
Peter says we will be married when he says that the husband and wife will be "heirs together of the grace of life" in 1 Peter 3:7
How can we be heirs together in heaven when we no longer have that marital relationship?
ARE you that daft read

Ro 8:17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

Gal 3:29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Tit 3:7 so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

Heb 6:17 Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath.

Heb 11:9 By faith he made his home in the promised land like a stranger in a foreign country; he lived in tents, as did Isaac and Jacob, who were heirs with him of the same promise.

1Pe 3:7 Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers

They are heirs because they both have faith in Jesus the Christ.

NOT because they are married.

The verse says they won't be married they will be like the Angles
Marriage ends at death.

Again I could give you full lesson on this from the Bible scripture but that not the threads Premise.

What is if if Mormons are Christians and again because you believe contrary to what Christians believe today and Yesterday all the way to 33 AD you are not Christian.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20487 Feb 20, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins ... This is loving our neighbor as ourselves, if he needs help, help him, and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, p. 220).[Many were killed under what is called the "Blood Atonement Doctrine" Leaving Mormonism was one of the sins that the blood of Jesus could not atone for, and a person's own blood must be shed by Mormon priests as an atonement for sin.]
"I intend to meet them on their own grounds.... and if any miserable scoundrel comes here, cut their throats." [And they obeyed; a wagon train of innocent men, women, and children were massacred at Mountain Meadows under the orders of Brigham Young. They were passing through Utah, and Brigham thought they were from Illinois where Joseph Smith had been killed. Many more were "atoned."]
You have a contradiction in the above between what Young states and what the narrator states, did you know that?
The narrator claims that wagon train massacre was done for blood atonement.
Unfortunately Young declared the only way blood atonement could happen was by slicing a person's throat.
See, the people in that wagon train massacre were killed by bullets. Many were stabbed. The deed was done quickly, meaning they didn't have the time or cooperation of the people in the wagon train to ask them to all line up so they could quickly slit open every one's throats for their blood atonement doctrine. Understand?
So the massacre wasn't done for reasons concerning the blood atonement doctrine. People were stabbed and shot to death in as hurried of a manner as was possible.
So explain from your sources, how that massacre was done for blood atonement if it wasn't done as Young stated it had to be done.
By the way, please give evidence of all these blood atonement killings the narrator and Young spoke of having taken place.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20489 Feb 20, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
Go whine somewhere else, I don't care.
lol...you won't answer the question because you'll have to reveal some of your own anti-Mormon crap. At least we agree here :)

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20490 Feb 20, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
If your god has limits, that is your problem. The God that can create heaven and the earth can certainly sit down and have lunch with Abraham. How "fricking" pathetic are you? LOL!!!
You realize A. you jumped into a conversation that as usual you had not a clue of what was being discussed and B. you keep dissing Egypt with your pathetic replies, not me lol.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20491 Feb 20, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
No they LDS have not always taught we have the same form as Spirits as we do our physical bodies but hey if I am wrong quote your MORMON Scriptures that prove me wrong. Redeemer no fringe or unofficial LDS documents.
I await your proof.
But the point was not if LDS teach it, the point that you did a dance around is Christians have never taught it from Christianity's inception till today.
That is why Mormons are not Christians
They have taught that. Maybe you should begin with this reference as spoken by Smith himself so you can have some clarification on the matter. Please read it all.
http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/sermons_t...

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20492 Feb 20, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
No they LDS have not always taught we have the same form as Spirits as we do our physical bodies but hey if I am wrong quote your MORMON Scriptures that prove me wrong. Redeemer no fringe or unofficial LDS documents.
I await your proof.
But the point was not if LDS teach it, the point that you did a dance around is Christians have never taught it from Christianity's inception till today.
That is why Mormons are not Christians
Now consider the following from a guy that had not a day of schooling in the sciences. please read the link so you'll read the comments below in context okay?
http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Matter
..
"The elements are eternal" (D&C 93:33). "The spirit of man is not a created being; it existed from eternity, and will exist to eternity. Anything created cannot be eternal; and earth, water, etc., had their existence in an elementary state, from eternity" (Joseph Smith, in HC 3:387).
..
Addressing the issue of creation ex nihilo, Joseph Smith asserted in one of his final sermons: "Now, the word create…does not mean to create out of nothing; it means to organize; the same as a man would organize materials and build a ship. Hence, we infer that God had materials to organize the world out of chaos-chaotic matter, which is element…. Element had an existence from the time [God] had. The pure principles of element are principles which can never be destroyed; they may be organized and reorganized, but not destroyed. They had no beginning and can have no end" (HC 6:308-309).
..
Extending the concept of the eternal nature of matter to the substance of spirit, Joseph Smith revealed, "There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; we cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter" (D&C 131:7-8).
..
Parley P. Pratt, an apostle and close associate of Joseph Smith, wrote, "Matter and spirit are the two great principles of all existence. Everything animate and inanimate is composed of one or the other, or both of these eternal principles…. Matter and spirit are of equal duration; both are self-existent, they never began to exist, and they never can be annihilated…. Matter as well as spirit is eternal, uncreated, self existing. However infinite the variety of its changes, forms and shapes; …eternity is inscribed in indelible characters on every particle" (HC 4:55).

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20493 Feb 20, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
No they LDS have not always taught we have the same form as Spirits as we do our physical bodies but hey if I am wrong quote your MORMON Scriptures that prove me wrong. Redeemer no fringe or unofficial LDS documents.
I await your proof.
But the point was not if LDS teach it, the point that you did a dance around is Christians have never taught it from Christianity's inception till today.
That is why Mormons are not Christians
This link should help you to further understand Mormon thought on our pre-existence ...
http://thepierianspring.wordpress.com/2010/02...
..
Spiritual Creation, 1830-1832

In the Latter-day Saint tradition, the first inkling of a preexistence seems to appear in Joseph Smith’s re-translation of the Bible and particularly the Genesis account.2

For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth.... And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air; But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word.(Book of Moses 3:5-7. June – October 1830)(emphasis added).
..
Uncreated Intelligence, Eternal Elements, 1833

At Kirtland Ohio, on May 6, 1833, Joseph received the following revelation:

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.... For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy.(D&C 93:29, 33).
..
“we see an unambiguous Mormon doctrine of fully individualized, pre-mortal humans.”12 God explains to Abraham:

[I]f there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.... These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.(Book of Abraham 3:18-19).
..
The Abrahamic account reveals that man is an eternal spirit, without beginning or end. Although the Book of Abraham would not be published in the Times and Seasons until in 1842, the import of the text was clear to Joseph Smith: spirits were uncreated. In fact, Joseph would consistently preach on the eternal nature of spirits.

c. August 1839:“The Spirit of Man is not a created being; it existed from eternity and will exist to eternity.”

February 1840:“I believe that the soul is eternal; and had no beginning.”

January 1841:“If the soul of man had a beginning it will surely have an end.... Spirits are eternal.”

March 1841:“The spirit or the inteligence of men are self Existent principles.”

April 1842:“the spirits of men are eternal.”13

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#20494 Feb 20, 2013
concerned in Egypt wrote:
<quoted text>
No they LDS have not always taught we have the same form as Spirits as we do our physical bodies
Now for some Mormon info of what you inquired about :)
...
http://thepierianspring.wordpress.com/2010/02...
..
But if man is eternal, what is the point of a tabernacle? In early 1841, on the 5th of January, Joseph further expounded his views on spirits and bodies.

The great principle of happiness consists in having a body. The Devil has no body, and herein is his punishment.... All beings who have bodies have power over those who have not. The devil has no power over us only as we permit him.14

That same month, William Patterson McIntire, briefly sketched the following in his notebook:“Next Meeting-Joseph said that before foundation of the Earth in the Grand Counsel that the Spirits of all Men ware subject to opression & the express purpose of God in Giveing it a tabernicle was to arm it against the power of Darkness-for instance Jesus said Get behind me Satan. Also the apostle said Resist the Devil & he will flee from you”(January 19, 1841).15
..
Spirit is Substance and Social Organization, 1842-1843

Revelations continued. Joseph explained in March 1, 1842:“We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, and we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.”16

In a Times and Seasons editorial “Try the Spirits” April 1842, Joseph further explicated the nature of spirits and taught, against traditional understandings, that spirit is not immaterial, but material.17 How early Joseph held this view is not clear.

[T]he body is supposed to be organized matter, and the spirit by many is thought to be immaterial, without substance. With this latter statement we should beg leave to differ-and state that spirit is a substance; that it is material, but that it is more pure, elastic, and refined matter than the body;-that it existed before the body, can exist in the body, and will exist separate from the body, when the body will be mouldering in the dust; and will in the resurrection be again united with it.18

While the spirit is a substance, it seems clear that Joseph believed a spirit isn’t a tabernacle and that without one spirits are vulnerable against the power of darkness. There is something unique in a tabernacle, not only for protection, but also in experiencing happiness and joy.19
..
After the death of Joseph Smith, many would understand Joseph’s statements to mean that if the body is organized matter, the spirit is also organized matter. Yet, Joseph declines to draw this connection and despite teaching that spirit has substance, Joseph persists to teach that spirits are uncreated.“Joseph Smith,” Harrell insists,“makes no mention of these uncreated spirits ever undergoing a change of state, such as spirit birth, prior to entering the physical body.”20 Indeed, Joseph seems to have understood the Book of Abraham to teach not a material organization, but a social one.

Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.(Abraham 3:22-23).

Consistent with the Abrahamic account, Joseph taught in 1839,“The Father called all spirits before him at the creation of Man & organized them.”21 Even after revealing that spirit is substance, Joseph would continue to teach that God calls the spirits and then organizes them.22

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20495 Feb 20, 2013
sportxmouse wrote:
<quoted text>
Dana makes all these statements are designed to bait people...
then when he hooks someone, he picks and chooses what part of an entire post he will attack
---
He is a master manipulator.
He doesn't care who he hurts because his drive comes from his own personal quote:
<quoted text>
If what I say hurts, it's because the truth can hurt.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20496 Feb 20, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
You realize A. you jumped into a conversation that as usual you had not a clue of what was being discussed and B. you keep dissing Egypt with your pathetic replies, not me lol.
Really? Because I have never read a post from him that denies that God could have lunch if he so desired.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20497 Feb 20, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>
lol...you won't answer the question because you'll have to reveal some of your own anti-Mormon crap. At least we agree here :)
You're idiot if you see agreement in our posts,.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#20498 Feb 20, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
Dana,
Where did you read that you can find similar statements in every Ensign?
I am sitting in my home at this moment looking at page 3 of my Ensign. A section says "The Ensign is published monthly by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints..." There is no disclaimer.
The Ensign IS published by the Church.
There isn't one in the current Ensign. But I have seen them.

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