Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

There are 32093 comments on the CNN story from Oct 12, 2011, titled Who says Mormons aren't Christians?. In it, CNN reports that:

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CNN.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#27168 Jul 18, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
Mormon 'Gay Cure' Study Used Electric Shocks Against Homosexual Feelings
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/mormon-gay-cures...
John Cameron said he was a naive and devout Mormon who felt "out of sync" with the world, when he volunteered to be part of a study of "electric aversion therapy" in 1976 at Utah's Brigham Young University.
Twice a week for six months, he jolted himself with painful shocks to the penis to rid himself of his attraction to men.
"I kept trying to fight it, praying and fasting and abstaining and being the best person I could," said Cameron, now a 59-year-old playwright and head of the acting program at the University of Iowa.
"I was never actively gay, never had any encounters with men -- never had moments when I failed and actually had sex with other men," he said.
But his undercurrent of feelings put him in direct conflict with the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints (LDS) and its principles.
"I was never actively gay, never had any encounters with men -- never had moments when I failed and actually had sex with other men," he said."
"Cameron had dated girls at BYU and even been engaged a couple of times, but said he always knew those relationships were doomed to failure."
So we have a man that would actually be analyzed by a shrink as bisexual with a strong lean for men.
In shock therapy he was aroused by both male and female erotica. Gay men don't repeatedly date straight women as a test to see if their attracted to them. They don't go so far as while believing they're gay to become engaged with a female. Not unless they know they're 100% gay and have always been 100% gay and are using females to hide the fact from others that they are gay.
The guy is obviously bisexual with a strong lean for men, simple to see. And while a youth not understanding his dual attraction branded him a bisexual, not a gay man revolted by females, I'm suppose to pity his ignorance?
And then this....way to funny seriously...
"He then had me visualize Jesus coming down through the ceiling and utterly destroying Gay Connell to dust and then 'a mighty wind' blowing all the dust away," said O'Donovan. "This is the single most emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually crippling experience of my entire life."
And he willingly subjected himself to that traumatic event. At least he takes responsibility and acknowledges his own idiocy for not understanding what he was sexually.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#27169 Jul 18, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>"I was never actively gay, never had any encounters with men -- never had moments when I failed and actually had sex with other men," he said."
"Cameron had dated girls at BYU and even been engaged a couple of times, but said he always knew those relationships were doomed to failure."
So we have a man that would actually be analyzed by a shrink as bisexual with a strong lean for men.
In shock therapy he was aroused by both male and female erotica. Gay men don't repeatedly date straight women as a test to see if their attracted to them. They don't go so far as while believing they're gay to become engaged with a female. Not unless they know they're 100% gay and have always been 100% gay and are using females to hide the fact from others that they are gay.
The guy is obviously bisexual with a strong lean for men, simple to see. And while a youth not understanding his dual attraction branded him a bisexual, not a gay man revolted by females, I'm suppose to pity his ignorance?
And then this....way to funny seriously...
"He then had me visualize Jesus coming down through the ceiling and utterly destroying Gay Connell to dust and then 'a mighty wind' blowing all the dust away," said O'Donovan. "This is the single most emotionally, psychologically, and spiritually crippling experience of my entire life."
And he willingly subjected himself to that traumatic event. At least he takes responsibility and acknowledges his own idiocy for not understanding what he was sexually.
And the cult tortured him ala Mengele to "experiment"??
He is one of countless others. There are a number of people here in the salt lake valley who have gone thru it and lived to tell. I see the results from a local perspective. It's funny, you and that other whack supporting the idea that if he volunteered for it, the people doing, supporting, sustaining, yadayada have no culpability. Mengele is ok, it's his victims who are at fault... Very sick.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#27170 Jul 18, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
Cracks in the Mormon Dam
http://blog.mrm.org/2013/07/cracks-in-the-mor...
Cracks in the Mormon Dam. Some water already beginning to gush.
Atheist LDS current mission presidents. Unbelieving return-MP’s. Doubting General Authorities. A General Authority that stops BYU’s NAMIR/FARMS from publishing a piece against the agnostic-in-longtime-LDS-sheep s-clothing John Dehlin. Daniel Peterson fired and FARMS abandoning unabashed apologetics. Mormonism’s greatest expert on the Book of Abraham, John Gee, says the LDS Church doesn’t stand or fall on the Book of Abraham, and has offered no credible apologetic for the fraud. Extremely few identifiable up-and-coming LDS apologists, and even most of those seem to have liberalized their Mormonism. LDS philosophers abandoning traditional LDS beliefs. LDS theologians and authors embarrassed by the teachings of their own apostles and prophets.
Palmer claims that approximately 45% of return-LDS-missionaries no longer have a temple recommend within five years of returning. Speaking of the unbelief going upstream, Palmer says,“I think it’s beginning to penetrate the upper echelons of the Church.” Lest we jump ahead of ourselves, he says,“And I emphasize ‘beginning.’”
He even says,“I know at least 10 LDS Seminary and Institute teachers who think like I do.”
“I had a daughter and her husband and their two boys leave the Church two months ago. And the answer that they got is, well,‘Even if it’s false, stay anyway.’” This is what I call,“Practical Mormon atheism.”
Mormonism is atrophying.“It’s like a balloon in the corner that you walk by every three days, and it’s getting less vibrant…”
More and more falling out of the LDS nest. Will they land on Jesus? Or will they go from Mormon atheism (yes, I said Mormon atheism) to secular atheism or pagan atheism, etc.?
Some fellow evangelicals have argued that this state of affairs call for a retreat — that we ought to stop critically engaging Mormonism and treat Mormons in general as transitioners. That we ought to simply encourage Mormonism to gradually, not definitively, mainstream into evangelicalism, even without integrity, even enjoying the delusion that Mormonism has always been evangelical at its core.
I say: Welcome, encourage, teach the transitioners as transitioners, and be aware of the shifts taking place, but don’t prematurely put up the banner. Increase the pressure of critically engaging Mormonism. Increase the maturity and depth of our intellectual critique of Mormonism. Increase the spread of knowledge of “unauthorized” LDS history. Increase the clear delineation between traditional Mormonism and Christianity. And increase the demand that persons of influence in Mormonism take their non-traditional positions with open and honest integrity (not whitewashing them as mere changes of “emphasis”, or as mere re-articulations of traditional positions). All the while gently encouraging Mormons, at an individual level, to consider the Jesus and the gospel of the Bible, to visit a local Christian church, and to take what is good with them as migrants to a new religious territory, but to definitively “jump ship.”
"Cracks in the Mormon Dam. Some water already beginning to gush."

People like this guy and you have been prophesying, predicting, claiming, stating, insisting the ruin of this church has been happening for over 160 years. And it still exists. It's membership still growing and it's stakes still increasing.
Be nice if one of you guys could state something that was actually happening so you wouldn't keep making foolish claims that have never came to pass yet of this church's demise. Just saying...

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#27171 Jul 18, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
The spin is pathetic. They are building an enormous new facility close to me, right next to an already existing DI. It's huge, multi millions and yet they can't pay for healthcare for their workers..many of whom are disabled and really need it.
http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/56374475-2...
Your and Dana's spin is pathetic but a true pathetic spin from a true haters heart you both have proven again and, nice job :)

(Besides helping people who are "normal" without mental and physical handicap) Deseret Industries provides job skill training for the physically, emotionally and socially challenged and places them into private sector employment. In 1989 over 700 people were placed in private jobs.

Desert Industries is not a company that hires employees till the age of retirement.
Desert Industries is a training facility for handicapped and nonhandicapped persons seeking to enter the job market with sufficient job training skills.
The purpose of Desert industries is not to afford life long jobs for all employees, 401ks, health insurance benefits etc.

The goal of Deseret Industries, as noted by their slogan People Helping People Help Themselves, is to encourage trainees to be self-reliant and become employable in the job market with goals to leave training and enter the job market.
In addition to trainees, there are full-time staff with titles including Store Manager, Retail Processing Coordinator, Job Coach Trainer, and Development Specialist.
Trainees of Deseret Industries do not receive benefits such as retirement, medical coverage, vacation, or sick leave (except for the above-mentioned full-time professional staff). Deseret Industries notes that this is the case because its goal is to prepare them for the workplace and encourage them to work in the community.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#27172 Jul 18, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>Your and Dana's spin is pathetic but a true pathetic spin from a true haters heart you both have proven again and, nice job :)

(Besides helping people who are "normal" without mental and physical handicap) Deseret Industries provides job skill training for the physically, emotionally and socially challenged and places them into private sector employment. In 1989 over 700 people were placed in private jobs.

Desert Industries is not a company that hires employees till the age of retirement.
Desert Industries is a training facility for handicapped and nonhandicapped persons seeking to enter the job market with sufficient job training skills.
The purpose of Desert industries is not to afford life long jobs for all employees, 401ks, health insurance benefits etc.

The goal of Deseret Industries, as noted by their slogan People Helping People Help Themselves, is to encourage trainees to be self-reliant and become employable in the job market with goals to leave training and enter the job market.
In addition to trainees, there are full-time staff with titles including Store Manager, Retail Processing Coordinator, Job Coach Trainer, and Development Specialist.
Trainees of Deseret Industries do not receive benefits such as retirement, medical coverage, vacation, or sick leave (except for the above-mentioned full-time professional staff). Deseret Industries notes that this is the case because its goal is to prepare them for the workplace and encourage them to work in the community.
Clueless is one of your positive sides. They assist their workers with Medicaid?? It's a church that refuses to pay for healthcare for the poor it employs?? And this change happens after they realize the ACA probably isn't going away?? Funny you can't see how despicable that is..

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#27173 Jul 18, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
And the cult tortured him ala Mengele to "experiment"??
He is one of countless others. There are a number of people here in the salt lake valley who have gone thru it and lived to tell. I see the results from a local perspective. It's funny, you and that other whack supporting the idea that if he volunteered for it, the people doing, supporting, sustaining, yadayada have no culpability. Mengele is ok, it's his victims who are at fault... Very sick.
There should be no culpability hater. Did you read the article?
"Psychologists confirm those harsh experiments were used in a variety of medical settings by scientists of all faiths.

Carri P. Jenkins, assistant to the president of BYU, confirmed that McBride did study the effects of aversion therapy in the 1970s. She said the experiment was an "outgrowth of the behaviorist movement, which believed that any behavior could be modified.

"Our understanding is that most behaviorists no longer believe this is an appropriate treatment for those who are seeking change," she said.

Jenkins said other universities at the time used similar techniques, and none of this type has taken place at BYU since then."

Shrinks in many countries of noted dr. status for decades believed for a long time any mental behavior could be adjusted with various forms of therapy. To those shrinks attempting it, it was a well meant part of science they (shrinks) thought was actually working.

You fricking hater, get off your high horse of after thought...lol.*amm your pathetic at your attempts to be such a hater...lol.
The cult didn't do anything to him. He admitted/insinuated he grew up attracted to males/females. He understood Mormon doctrine was against homosexuality.
So instead of doing as most do in his situation and just rolling while adjusting as most non-mos do, he beats himself with a guilt trip that he's a homosexual and is gay and has to find a way to get way of his thoughts he hasn't even verified are true by having an actual relationship with a guy.
So he volunteers for shock therapy! Note he never once said a bishop or leader coached him to seek help? It was a professor that helped him believe what he already believed. So he decided to shock his nuts and pretend with some fruit cake Jesus would "blow" the gay Cameron away.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#27174 Jul 18, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>There should be no culpability hater. Did you read the article?
"Psychologists confirm those harsh experiments were used in a variety of medical settings by scientists of all faiths.

Carri P. Jenkins, assistant to the president of BYU, confirmed that McBride did study the effects of aversion therapy in the 1970s. She said the experiment was an "outgrowth of the behaviorist movement, which believed that any behavior could be modified.

"Our understanding is that most behaviorists no longer believe this is an appropriate treatment for those who are seeking change," she said.

Jenkins said other universities at the time used similar techniques, and none of this type has taken place at BYU since then."

Shrinks in many countries of noted dr. status for decades believed for a long time any mental behavior could be adjusted with various forms of therapy. To those shrinks attempting it, it was a well meant part of science they (shrinks) thought was actually working.

You fricking hater, get off your high horse of after thought...lol.*amm your pathetic at your attempts to be such a hater...lol.
The cult didn't do anything to him. He admitted/insinuated he grew up attracted to males/females. He understood Mormon doctrine was against homosexuality.
So instead of doing as most do in his situation and just rolling while adjusting as most non-mos do, he beats himself with a guilt trip that he's a homosexual and is gay and has to find a way to get way of his thoughts he hasn't even verified are true by having an actual relationship with a guy.
So he volunteers for shock therapy! Note he never once said a bishop or leader coached him to seek help? It was a professor that helped him believe what he already believed. So he decided to shock his nuts and pretend with some fruit cake Jesus would "blow" the gay Cameron away.
And your freaky pleasure in what that cult did to him is soo telling. Ignoring the perpetrator while attacking the victim is way beyond sick.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#27175 Jul 18, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
Clueless is one of your positive sides. They assist their workers with Medicaid?? It's a church that refuses to pay for healthcare for the poor it employs?? And this change happens after they realize the ACA probably isn't going away?? Funny you can't see how despicable that is..
The number of associates that can participate in DI programs increased dramatically earlier this year when DI officials at church headquarters established limitations on the number of hours associates can work each week. By limiting those hours, Deseret Industries has been able to significantly increase the number of associates who can be added to the program.

There is also support coming from the associate’s bishop (every associate, whether LDS or not, is referred to the program by an LDS bishop),

According to Mecham, 88 percent of the people who follow the whole program, all the way to the Advanced Placement Program, leave Deseret Industries for better jobs.

For Stacy, this investment was important.

“I was stunned,” she said.“I had more support than I thought I had. There were all these people around me, interested in me and helping me. It made me feel like, with their help and support, I could accomplish something.”

With input and training from her support system, Stacy decided she wanted to become a receptionist. The DI Advanced Placement Program helped pay for classes at the Davis Applied Technology College in nearby Kaysville that sharpened her job skills. It also paid her wages while she got on the job training.

Yeah.....you and dana hater got it all figured out, DI must be a really terrible place for anyone to be trained at...glad you two see all the evil in this company cause I missed it :)

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#27176 Jul 18, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>The number of associates that can participate in DI programs increased dramatically earlier this year when DI officials at church headquarters established limitations on the number of hours associates can work each week. By limiting those hours, Deseret Industries has been able to significantly increase the number of associates who can be added to the program.

There is also support coming from the associate’s bishop (every associate, whether LDS or not, is referred to the program by an LDS bishop),

According to Mecham, 88 percent of the people who follow the whole program, all the way to the Advanced Placement Program, leave Deseret Industries for better jobs.

For Stacy, this investment was important.

“I was stunned,” she said.“I had more support than I thought I had. There were all these people around me, interested in me and helping me. It made me feel like, with their help and support, I could accomplish something.”

With input and training from her support system, Stacy decided she wanted to become a receptionist. The DI Advanced Placement Program helped pay for classes at the Davis Applied Technology College in nearby Kaysville that sharpened her job skills. It also paid her wages while she got on the job training.

Yeah.....you and dana hater got it all figured out, DI must be a really terrible place for anyone to be trained at...glad you two see all the evil in this company cause I missed it :)
Yeah, that's the spin and you eat it with a spoon

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#27177 Jul 18, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
And your freaky pleasure in what that cult did to him is soo telling. Ignoring the perpetrator while attacking the victim is way beyond sick.
Absolutely not. You're replies are based on you being a true blue hater and not sensible reasoning.
For any adult (note the word I used, ADULT not MINOR) subjecting themselves of their own free will that is what they've done. Made a choice. How their church doctrine, their religious teachers/companions, non-member friends and social media has influenced their opinion of himself is one thing to be noted.
But a shrink will tell you none of the above will ever have forced directly/indirectly a person to do something so drastic. That's the adult choice.
You as a hater wish to remove all responsibility from an adult for their decisions in this matter so as a hater you can deflect blame where it belongs and that's because you're a liberal and a liberal prides himself in deflecting blame from it's source for which it belongs to.
Now if you wish to speak of minors being forced by Mormon/non-Mormon parents/guardians to be subject to sexual orientation change therapy, I'll agree adverse consequences from said therapy lay at the parent(s)/guardian(s) feet.

“Good day to you!”

Since: Oct 08

Earth

#27178 Jul 18, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
Yeah, that's the spin and you eat it with a spoon
lol...the only spin here is your Mormon hater spin. You hate Mormons young and old, you hate the word Mormon, you hate Mormon writings, you hate anything good Mormons do for each other or others regardless because you have a true haters heart for all things Mormon and to you, Mormons will never ever do or be anything good to you because you hate all things Mormon.
You're a foul nasty thinking hater that has no decency when it comes to 'normal' thinking.
You're foul nasty disgusting hater heart went so far as to victimize to young preteens as rape meat for non-Mormon illegal marriages and you saw saying that was well and good.
I estimate somewhere inside your mind there's some good in you as a person but you have a lot of mental sickness to deal with and your hater heart reveals that as fact.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#27179 Jul 18, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>Absolutely not. You're replies are based on you being a true blue hater and not sensible reasoning.
For any adult (note the word I used, ADULT not MINOR) subjecting themselves of their own free will that is what they've done. Made a choice. How their church doctrine, their religious teachers/companions, non-member friends and social media has influenced their opinion of himself is one thing to be noted.
But a shrink will tell you none of the above will ever have forced directly/indirectly a person to do something so drastic. That's the adult choice.
You as a hater wish to remove all responsibility from an adult for their decisions in this matter so as a hater you can deflect blame where it belongs and that's because you're a liberal and a liberal prides himself in deflecting blame from it's source for which it belongs to.
Now if you wish to speak of minors being forced by Mormon/non-Mormon parents/guardians to be subject to sexual orientation change therapy, I'll agree adverse consequences from said therapy lay at the parent(s)/guardian(s) feet.
As long as there's demand for it, there's nothing wrong with supplying it??..and the cult coercion driving the demand has no accountability either, right?? No wonder they baptized Hitler..

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#27180 Jul 18, 2013
No Surprise wrote:
<quoted text>Absolutely not. You're replies are based on you being a true blue hater and not sensible reasoning.
For any adult (note the word I used, ADULT not MINOR) subjecting themselves of their own free will that is what they've done. Made a choice. How their church doctrine, their religious teachers/companions, non-member friends and social media has influenced their opinion of himself is one thing to be noted.
But a shrink will tell you none of the above will ever have forced directly/indirectly a person to do something so drastic. That's the adult choice.
You as a hater wish to remove all responsibility from an adult for their decisions in this matter so as a hater you can deflect blame where it belongs and that's because you're a liberal and a liberal prides himself in deflecting blame from it's source for which it belongs to.
Now if you wish to speak of minors being forced by Mormon/non-Mormon parents/guardians to be subject to sexual orientation change therapy, I'll agree adverse consequences from said therapy lay at the parent(s)/guardian(s) feet.
The consequences of minors being subjected to that therapy lay at the parents/ religion that pushed it/religion that perpetrated it/ congregation that supports it's feet. They all suck

sportxmouse

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#27181 Jul 18, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
God, you are sooooo confused. It's kind of pathetic. But since you brought it up..
The JONAH lawsuit...if its successful, there will be lawsuits filed nationwide against these quacks for consumer fraud.
Why is Elder Jensen speaking at an evergreen conference in support of reparitive therapy?Perhaps you should check out exactly who is on their board. Or keep your head in that sand..you really seem to enjoy the hell out of it.
they are SEPARATE entities understand?

Like Wal-Mart and Target

sportxmouse

“Duty is a Privilege!”

Since: Sep 12

Location hidden

#27182 Jul 19, 2013
Acts of homosexuality are a crime against Heavenly Fathers laws.

What the people did outside of the Church was wrong... but the people volunteered for it... and the organizations were different entities.

End of story.

“We stole the Statue of Liberty”

Since: Jul 13

Location hidden

#27183 Jul 19, 2013
Looking for Gru

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#27184 Jul 19, 2013
Mormons helping Mormons is their definition of a "miracle." Shouldn't they be doing that anyway? Who really got helped here? The Mormon church. This is anything but a "miracle."

Matt 5:
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

"LDS convert experiences miracle while shopping for missionary clothing"

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865583277/...

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#27186 Jul 19, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
And the cult tortured him ala Mengele to "experiment"??
He is one of countless others. There are a number of people here in the salt lake valley who have gone thru it and lived to tell. I see the results from a local perspective. It's funny, you and that other whack supporting the idea that if he volunteered for it, the people doing, supporting, sustaining, yadayada have no culpability. Mengele is ok, it's his victims who are at fault... Very sick.
They can never be honest and admit it is the cult teaching that created this desire to want to change in the first place. The pressure to conform, the self loathing. Part of being in a cult is never excepting responsibility for the damage done by that cult. It's always someone else's fault.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#27187 Jul 19, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>
Clueless is one of your positive sides. They assist their workers with Medicaid?? It's a church that refuses to pay for healthcare for the poor it employs?? And this change happens after they realize the ACA probably isn't going away?? Funny you can't see how despicable that is..
The slogan should be "Helping people stay poor, underpaid, starving, and living off the government, and pretending to actually make a difference." It's all just a PR gimmick.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#27188 Jul 19, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>They can never be honest and admit it is the cult teaching that created this desire to want to change in the first place. The pressure to conform, the self loathing. Part of being in a cult is never excepting responsibility for the damage done by that cult. It's always someone else's fault.
I know...funny, how she went from "you lie!" to making excuses for it. At first, she didn't believe her precious LD$ inc. capable of showing porn to children and electrocuting their genitals. Now that she knows BYU admitted to doing it, she chooses to rationalize torture. Even if that torture is applied to children.

Anything to protect the brethren, right? Those old lizards who lie as easy as breathing and gleefully take her money.
She got a peek at the truth. She can twist it in her head anyway she chooses. But her twists can never replace the truth. Evergreen is one of the disgusting realities of LD$ inc., it's still open, run by their lizards while getting their referrals from morg bishops. One of the more evil examples of the profits saying one thing and doing the exact opposite.

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