Who says Mormons aren't Christians?

Oct 12, 2011 Full story: CNN 32,002

Editor's note: Dean Obeidallah is an award-winning comedian who has appeared on TV shows such as Comedy Central's "Axis of Evil" special, ABC's "The View," CNN's "What the Week" and HLN's "The Joy Behar Show." He is executive producer of the annual New York Arab-American Comedy Festival and the Amman Stand Up Comedy Festival.

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“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22762 Mar 28, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>
Let me attempt to answer your first question here...
What it means, "to be like the angels" is that angels have never had, and never will have, the chance to experience this mortal life. They have never had the chance to come to this earth to receive a body, to experience life, and to marry another individual. They have and will never have the opportunity that you, I, or others have in this life. They are singular, and will always be that way. That's why those who are not married in this life will not have the opportunity in the next. Hence, they will be "like the angels." None will marry, nor are given in marriage in the next life. It is something that can only be accomplished in this life, during our mortal existence.
In my next post, I will attempt to answer your next question, or point rather.
If true, why would a woman who was married 7 times be "like an Angel?"

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22763 Mar 28, 2013
NoMo wrote:
...actually, just make that religions in general. there are some who don't actively spread hate but not very many.
"I like your Christ.
I don't like your Christians.
They are so unlike your Christ." Ghandi

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#22764 Mar 28, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>
"I like your Christ.
I don't like your Christians.
They are so unlike your Christ." Ghandi
Exactly:)
Even in the repressed state of Utah, This sh1t is getting old and tired, just like the bigots!! Hahaha

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22765 Mar 28, 2013
Sambrotherofnephi wrote:
<quoted text>
A few verses talking about "God's grace" isn't going to cover...
-True
I'm a little confused now. I thought other Christians believed that faith in Jesus Christ is required to be saved. I know of some Christians that say that Baptism and prayer is required to be saved. What is the difference between that and what 2 Ne. 25:23 is saying?
Yes, faith in Christ's sacrifice is required for our salvation, but after we have received his saving grace, we don't have to keep earning it. Baptism of the holy Spirit is also required, that is the revelation or the understanding of just what Christ has done to you. Water baptism is not. An example of a person who was saved by their faith is the thief on the cross. He got to be with Christ that very day even though he had no opportunity to be baptized by water.

Now what is he difference between what I've said and 2 Nephi? I'll let your leaders tell us that:

What is meant by "after all we can do"?

According to the currently used and Church-published True to the Faith: A Gospel Reference, "the phrase 'after all we can do' teaches that effort is required on our part to receive the fullness of the Lord's grace and be made worthy to dwell with him" (p. 77, emphasis added)10.

The LDS Bible Dictionary tell us that the grace unto "eternal life and exaltation" is insufficient "without total effort on the part of the recipient":

"This grace is an enabling power that allows men and women to lay hold on eternal life and exaltation after they have expended their own best efforts. Divine grace is needed by every soul in consequence of the fall of Adam and also because of man's weaknesses and shortcomings. However, grace cannot suffice without total effort on the part of the recipient. Hence the explanation,'It is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do'(2 Ne. 25:23)" (p. 697).

Under the heading "2 Nephi 25:23—We Are Saved by Grace, after All We Can Do", the currently used CES manual Book of Mormon Student Study Guide reads,

"We are saved by the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. We must, however, come unto Christ on His terms in order to obtain all the blessings that He freely offers us. We come unto Christ by doing “all we can do” to remember Him, keep our covenants with Him, and obey His commandments (see D&C 20:77, 79; see also Abraham 3:25)." (p. 53)

To help explain what "after all we can do" means Mormon leaders sometimes cross-reference 2 Nephi 25:23 with Moroni 10:32. For example:

"And what is 'all we can do'? It surely includes repentance (see Alma 24:11) and baptism, keeping the commandments, and enduring to the end. Moroni pleaded,'Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ'(Moro. 10:32)." - Dallin H. Oaks11

On December 9th, 1982, Ezra Taft Benson gave a talk entitled, "After All We Can Do", and said the following:

"What is meant by 'after all we can do'?'After all we can do' includes extending our best effort.'After all we can do' includes living His commandments.'After all we can do' includes loving our fellowmen and praying for those who regard us as their adversary.'After all we can do' means clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, visiting the sick and giving 'succor [to] those who stand in need of [our] succor'(Mosiah 4:15)-remembering that what we do unto one of the least of God's children, we do unto Him (see Matthew 25:34-40; D&C 42:38).'After all we can do' means leading chaste, clean, pure lives, being scrupulously honest in all our dealings and treating others the way we would want to be treated."12

http://www.mrm.org/2-nephi-25-23

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22766 Mar 28, 2013
Referencing 2 Nephi 25:23 and paralleling temporal salvation with celestial exaltation, Marion G. Romney speaks of how a man must go through the "pearly gates":

"The truth is that we are saved by grace only after all we ourselves can do.(See 2 Ne. 25:23.) There will be no government dole which can get us through the pearly gates. Nor will anybody go into the celestial kingdom who wants to go there on the works of someone else. Every man must go through on his own merits. We might just as well learn this here and now."13

James Faust sees doing "all that you can do" as "sincerely repent[ing]" and fully repaying our debt to Christ:

"All of us have sinned and need to repent to fully pay our part of the debt. When we sincerely repent, the Savior’s magnificent Atonement pays the rest of that debt.(2 Nephi 25:23)"14

The passage is often used as a contrast to the evangelical doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith alone:

"Many people think they need only confess that Jesus is the Christ and then they are saved by grace alone. We cannot be saved by grace alone,'for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.'" - James E. Faust (ibid.)

Dallin Oaks describes what it means to do all we can do:

"Because of what He accomplished by His atoning sacrifice, Jesus Christ has the power to prescribe the conditions we must fulfill to qualify for the blessings of His Atonement. That is why we have commandments and ordinances. That is why we make covenants. That is how we qualify for the promised blessings. They all come through the mercy and grace of the Holy One of Israel,'after all we can do'(2 Nephi 25:23)." (Oct 2010 General Conference)

Harold B Lee wrote15,

"For," said this prophet, "we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nephi 25:23.) Truly we are redeemed by the atoning blood of the Savior of the world, but only after each has done all he can to work out his own salvation...

The Lord will bless us to the degree to which we keep His commandments. Nephi put this principle in a tremendous orbit when he said:

For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.(2 Nephi 25:23.)

The Savior's blood, His atonement, will save us, but only after we have done all we can to save ourselves by keeping His commandments.

Spencer W Kimball said:
"Eternal life hangs in the balance awaiting the works of men. This process toward eternal life is a matter of achieving perfection. Living all the commandments guarantees total forgiveness of sins and assures one of exaltation through the perfection which comes by complying with the formula the Lord gave us... Being perfect means to triumph over sin. This is a mandate from the Lord. He is just and wise and kind. He would never require anything from his children which was not for their benefit and which was not attainable. Perfection therefore is an achievable goal." (Miracle of Forgiveness p. 208)

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22767 Mar 28, 2013
NoMo wrote:
<quoted text>Exactly:)
Even in the repressed state of Utah, This sh1t is getting old and tired, just like the bigots!! Hahaha
I understand exactly what you are saying.
Seriously

Washington, DC

#22768 Mar 28, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
It means simply that once I'm dead, I cannot marry another. It also means one cannot be given in marriage once they pass away.
So what you are "simply" saying is that the very woman they were discussing was married SEVEN times in her lifetime and doesn't have a single husband in Heaven? Well, that sucks! And isn't true. She, like all of us married here on earth, will have NO SPOUSE in Heaven. All of us (well, Christians anyway) will be the...

Bride of Christ

...and that will be the only "marriage" in Heaven. This is clearly explained in the scriptures, but your so-called prophets have polluted the Word of God to satisfy their own lusts and ambitions. Here's the GOOD NEWS though. Doesn't matter. God is God is God and always has been. He always will be too. Your whacky beliefs don't change Him or the Truth in the end.

Since: Sep 12

West Plains, MO

#22769 Mar 28, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>If true, then Jesus would have clearly said "she would be married to brother "?" in the resurrection, and then why. He doesn't. He said we are to be "like the angels".

Angels don't marry. But Romans 7 clearly teaches it ends at death. There isn't one verse that makes an exception.
You're right. Jesus doesn't say she would be married to bother "?" in the resurrection because she wouldn't have been married to any of the brothers since they were married according to the Law of Moses, a lesser law, meaning they would only be married for this life only. The context in which the question was asked makes it clear that the Sadducees were trying to entrap Jesus. Since the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection (Matt 22:23), asking a question based on that belief (Matt 22:28) was an obvious trick. Just the fact alone that the Sadducees asked the question proves Jesus and others, were teaching a higher law.

Since: Sep 12

West Plains, MO

#22770 Mar 28, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>If true, why would a woman who was married 7 times be "like an Angel?"
Because she was married according to the Law of Moses, a lesser law, meaning her marriages were for this life only. So, at the death of her husband(s), her marriage(s) ended. She was no longer bound by the lesser law. That's why "she" would be "like an angel." Because she would not have the opportunity to be married again in the resurrection. Her opportunity was for this life only.

Since: Sep 12

West Plains, MO

#22771 Mar 28, 2013
Seriously wrote:
<quoted text>So what you are "simply" saying is that the very woman they were discussing was married SEVEN times in her lifetime and doesn't have a single husband in Heaven? Well, that sucks! And isn't true. She, like all of us married here on earth, will have NO SPOUSE in Heaven. All of us (well, Christians anyway) will be the...

Bride of Christ

...and that will be the only "marriage" in Heaven. This is clearly explained in the scriptures, but your so-called prophets have polluted the Word of God to satisfy their own lusts and ambitions. Here's the GOOD NEWS though. Doesn't matter. God is God is God and always has been. He always will be too. Your whacky beliefs don't change Him or the Truth in the end.
You're right. Like her, if you were married according to a lesser law (hers being the Law of Moses) you will not be married in the resurrection. You will live singularly for eternity. And, that does suck. Well, I guess that depends on who you're married to. To some it might be a blessing.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22772 Mar 28, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>
Because she was married according to the Law of Moses, a lesser law, meaning her marriages were for this life only. So, at the death of her husband(s), her marriage(s) ended. She was no longer bound by the lesser law. That's why "she" would be "like an angel." Because she would not have the opportunity to be married again in the resurrection. Her opportunity was for this life only.
Why didn't he teach them the higher law then? And if a person who dies under the law of Moses are like the angels, why are Mormons doing works for the dead for them? Why doesn't he give one verse that tells us that eternal marriage is required for our salvation? In Mormonism you only receive the greatest gifts if you temple married. Wouldn't Jesus want us all to have his best?

When Joseph Smith created the LDS church, on of the first things he did was talk about building temples, and did build one beginning in Kirtland. Every time the Saints were forced to move after, one of the first things Smith did was pick a temple lot. This is showing how essential the LDS church thinks temple work is to the followers.

Yet you have not one record of the early church talking about the need to do temple work. You may say that is because they already had a temple in Jerusalem. But then you have a problem. The gentile members would not have been allowed in that temple. That would require that the early church would build their own to met the needs of all the members. Yet they made no effort to build one. They never talked about the need to have one. There is no talk of temple endowments or it's need.

Yet Mormonism is suppose to be a restoration of that church. What happened?

Since: Sep 12

Vanzant, MO

#22773 Mar 28, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>Why didn't he teach them the higher law then? And if a person who dies under the law of Moses are like the angels, why are Mormons doing works for the dead for them? Why doesn't he give one verse that tells us that eternal marriage is required for our salvation? In Mormonism you only receive the greatest gifts if you temple married. Wouldn't Jesus want us all to have his best?

When Joseph Smith created the LDS church, on of the first things he did was talk about building temples, and did build one beginning in Kirtland. Every time the Saints were forced to move after, one of the first things Smith did was pick a temple lot. This is showing how essential the LDS church thinks temple work is to the followers.

Yet you have not one record of the early church talking about the need to do temple work. You may say that is because they already had a temple in Jerusalem. But then you have a problem. The gentile members would not have been allowed in that temple. That would require that the early church would build their own to met the needs of all the members. Yet they made no effort to build one. They never talked about the need to have one. There is no talk of temple endowments or it's need.

Yet Mormonism is suppose to be a restoration of that church. What happened?
You need to remember, the Sadducees were trying to trick Jesus with their question. They did not believe in the resurrection and basing their question on that belief was the entrapment. Jesus didn't fall for it. So, Jesus answered their question according to the lower law. As if they ought to know it since they were living it.

I think you already know the answer to the temple work. Since there is no marrying in the resurrection, and none will be given in marriage, that work is done for those who have passed on without the opportunity here vicariously. Now, I'm not expecting you to believe me. I'm just explaining, and attempting to answer your question. The fact is, I believe as you. That since you were married according to man's law (a lower law), in death your marriage will end also. You too will "be like the angels" living singularly for all eternity.

“Too much LDS in the 60's”

Since: Sep 10

Marysville, CA

#22774 Mar 28, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>
You need to remember, the Sadducees were trying to trick Jesus with their question. They did not believe in the resurrection and basing their question on that belief was the entrapment. Jesus didn't fall for it. So, Jesus answered their question according to the lower law. As if they ought to know it since they were living it.
I think you already know the answer to the temple work. Since there is no marrying in the resurrection, and none will be given in marriage, that work is done for those who have passed on without the opportunity here vicariously. Now, I'm not expecting you to believe me. I'm just explaining, and attempting to answer your question. The fact is, I believe as you. That since you were married according to man's law (a lower law), in death your marriage will end also. You too will "be like the angels" living singularly for all eternity.
But where did Jesus ever teach a higher law of marriage?

Since: Sep 12

Vanzant, MO

#22775 Mar 28, 2013
Dana Robertson wrote:
<quoted text>But where did Jesus ever teach a higher law of marriage?
He certainly wasn't teaching it to the arrogant Sadducees. However, that's not to say he wasn't teaching it. For example, in verse 29, Christ says, "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God." What scriptures did he have in mind? Where is it written in the Old Testament that marriages do not continue in heaven? And how is the power of God made manifest by ending the marriage between a man and a woman who have lived their lives together, and who loved each other. In fact, the New Testament says exactly the opposite. In 1 Corinthians 11:11, Paul says:

Nevertheless, neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, "in the Lord."
which certainly sounds like an eternal principle is being taught. Moreover, Jesus says, in Mark 10:8-9,

And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
The Bible teaches us that the power of God unites. There is no mention anywhere of death changing anything; no "till death do you part." It is man's interpretation who insists on separating married couples.

Since: Oct 08

Location hidden

#22776 Mar 28, 2013
Seriously

Washington, DC

#22777 Mar 28, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text> Now, I'm not expecting you to believe me...
I'm SO glad you clarified that because I would NEVER believe you or one of your prophets over God Himself. His Word is law - not man made as your church has so purposely done over the years. How often does it change anyway? I can count about 10 MAJOR doctrinal changes (and splits) in your church since it's founding. What happened? God NEVER changes. Please allow me ...

There is NO MARRIAGE in Heaven at all between male/female - lower law, higher law, temple or whatever. NO MARRIAGE. The only "marriage" is Christ and His Bride, the Church. All the rituals in the world will not cause your marriages to be eternal. When God says it, you can take it to the bank. There is no marriage in Heaven.
Seriously

Washington, DC

#22778 Mar 28, 2013
In 1 Corinthians 11:11 Paul is talking about man and woman's earthly union - not Heavenly. There is no marriage in Heaven.

Since: Sep 12

Vanzant, MO

#22779 Mar 28, 2013
Seriously wrote:
<quoted text>I'm SO glad you clarified that because I would NEVER believe you or one of your prophets over God Himself. His Word is law - not man made as your church has so purposely done over the years. How often does it change anyway? I can count about 10 MAJOR doctrinal changes (and splits) in your church since it's founding. What happened? God NEVER changes. Please allow me ...

There is NO MARRIAGE in Heaven at all between male/female - lower law, higher law, temple or whatever. NO MARRIAGE. The only "marriage" is Christ and His Bride, the Church. All the rituals in the world will not cause your marriages to be eternal. When God says it, you can take it to the bank. There is no marriage in Heaven.
You would have made a great Sadducee. You've stated your opinion, and you're welcome to it. As I said earlier, I am in agreement with you. You will be "like an angel," living singularly throughout all eternity. Enjoy it...

Since: Sep 12

Vanzant, MO

#22780 Mar 28, 2013
Seriously wrote:
In 1 Corinthians 11:11 Paul is talking about man and woman's earthly union - not Heavenly. There is no marriage in Heaven.
What I find extremely funny is that most Christians, especially Protestants, believe they will be reunited with their spouses upon death. They don't even share your limited view.
Seriously

Washington, DC

#22781 Mar 28, 2013
Livinginthelandofcrazy wrote:
<quoted text>What I find extremely funny is that most Christians, especially Protestants, believe they will be reunited with their spouses upon death. They don't even share your limited view.
What "most Christians" are you talking about? MOST Christians know there will be no marriage in Heaven - not for you, not for me, not for anyone married anywhere, by anyone, under any law. That is nothing more than made-up doctrine (not scriptural at all!) and lots of wishful thinking BY MAN! God's Word (the only one that matters) clearly states that the Church (made up only of those who believe in the real Jesus) will be His Bride. That's it, Buster, the only "marriage" of any type in Heaven. You cannot show me ONE verse in the Old or the New Testament that indicates marriage is eternal. Don't you think it would be an important enough issue that were it so, it would have deserved at least an "honorable mention" in the Bible? The BOM is MAN MADE - and not Holy Spirit inspired. Your original "prophet" was a lunatic. His past was very shady and his "revelations" are no longer even practiced in the very church he founded? Wow.

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