Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

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Dan

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#535887
May 8, 2014
 

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atemcowboy wrote:
looks like I aint afraid to speak out against cib or anyone else who is wrong. and I have withstood him in the past and would in the future also.lol
Super.

You have the stones to argue with a poster the rest of the board refers to as "Brazil Nuts".

Scoreboard for you.

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May 8, 2014
 

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Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
"but for him to say that water baptism {bestows} the Holy Ghost to us is not Biblical accurate, and he should know that. that is not the way that the people in the Bible received the Holy Ghost."
Um, I found this passage from the Bible, and it seems "accurate".
"Matthew 28:18-20:And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Looks like Jesus thought that baptism conferred the Holy Spirit. Unless, of course, you think that He was in the habit of issuing meaningless commands.
I have no problem with what is written in the Bible, and those words were a commandment from Jesus to the disciples.

this is the description that He gave them and it doesn't show that when they teach them and make disciples out of them and Baptize them that it would be an automatic indwelling of the holy Ghost and not one person but an ignorant one could read that in His Command to them(and you qualify).

show me where ONE person received the Holy Ghost when they were baptized. you cant because it doesn't happen like that.

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#535889
May 8, 2014
 
DAN,

do me and you a favor, don't post to me, I abhor ignorance and you permeate this forum with it[ignorance]
Regina

Toms River, NJ

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#535890
May 8, 2014
 
RoSesz wrote:
<quoted text>
By His,BLOOD we are redeemed...using only Catholic thinking, why does the congregation not merit partaking of the BLOOD , THE CHALICE, if it's that important to salvation ...only the priest gets the CHALICE .......as,a kid I thought it was,because kids can't have alcohol .
But if it's,HIS,BLOOD as you say , transformed from wine, why only the priest ....
And I don't want some web site...your opinion...I'm serious...sorry Regina, if it's,so important , a dogma, belief , why not offer it at least, to the faithful ...
As do the other churches,I've been to ....
It was Christ who redeemed us. The shedding of blood means death of the body.

The Precious Blood still retains the accident of wine, Rose. By the power of the Holy Spirit through a properly ordained priest, it is changed into the Precious Blood of Christ. The change has taken place substantially not elementally, the substance has changed not the species. Therefore, the alcohol content remains. The same is true for the Precious Body, the change is substantial not elemental. I remember being taught this in first grade.

I don't understand why you won't read the links or quotes we provide. There is so much rich theology behind Catholic doctrines that it usually requires more than a one or two sentence answer to your questions. The links will provide you with a much more detailed answer. As it is, even then, there's usually more to it.

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A Brief Rebuttal of Baptismal Regeneration


by James White



"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed...but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." So wrote the Apostle Peter to the early Christians (1 Peter 1:18-19). He, as all the other Apostles, believed that we are redeemed, cleansed, forgiven, in the blood of Jesus Christ. Yet, there are many today who would replace the blood of Christ with the water of a baptistery. They teach that we are regenerated, made alive, cleansed, by water baptism. Some insist that it must be baptism by immersion; others say that sprinkling accomplishes the same thing. In either case, the work of Jesus Christ on the cross cannot be said to be finished and efficacious until man does something--in this case, adds his work of baptism to the work of God in Christ. Baptism is said to be the means of salvation, the method by which Christ's work at Calvary is taken from the merely theoretical to the actual.

It is not our intention to engage in a lengthy discussion of the topic of baptismal regeneration in this article. Such would require far more space than we have available at this time! Instead, we wish to point out a basic, foundational error of the position taken by such groups as the Church of Christ and the Mormon Church--both have some doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Then, we will briefly respond to a couple of the more often used proof-texts provided by proponents of baptismal regeneration. We realize that there is a whole area of discussion that we are leaving to the side by taking this approach, that being the sacramental concept of regeneration in infant baptism. This view is found in Roman Catholicism (indeed, baptism is the original means of justification in Roman theology) and in various of the sacramentally-oriented Protestant churches.

Underlying the idea that man, by an action such as baptism, can bring about his own regeneration, is the rejection of the Biblical teaching of sin, and most especially, the truth that sin enslaves man, debilitates man, brings spiritual death to man. The Lord Jesus spoke clearly of this truth:

To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin" (John 8:31-34).

Man in sin must be freed from slavery to sin. He cannot free Himself, but must be freed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. This is an offensive truth to the unregenerate man, as the response from these would-be self-made disciples indicates (8:41, 48). Men do not like to hear that they are, in fact, totally dependent upon God's grace for salvation--they do not want to know that they are incapable of saving themselves, or even of coming unto Christ for salvation, outside of God's gracious drawing (John 6:44). But as the Lord Himself said, we are slaves to sin. Slaves must be freed.

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Paul describes the lost man's condition with the graphic language of death. "As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins" he tells the Ephesians (2:1). How can a dead man be made alive? Only by the work of God, just as he told the Colossians, "When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ" (Colossians 2:13). This deadness has tremendous results according to the inspired Apostle. First, it means that there is no man who, in and of himself, seeks after God: "There is no one who understands, no one who seeks God" (Romans 3:11). Likewise, there is no man who understands the things of God unless he is first changed from being "natural" or "carnal" to "spiritual": "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1 Corinthians 2:14). Paul says that when men are alienated from God, they are His enemies in their minds (Colossians 1:21). These are strong words, and they well describe the hatred and enmity that exists in the heart of the man who continues to live in his rebellion against God. What is even more striking is Paul's absolute belief that this condition cannot be changed by man--not only is it not the natural man's desire to be at peace with the Holy One, but it is beyond his capacity to do so, even if he were so inclined. Note Paul's words in Romans 8:5-8:

For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Those who hold to baptismal regeneration would have us to believe that one passes from being a "natural man" to a "spiritual man" through baptism; yet, from whence does this desire to be baptized come? Is God not pleased when we are baptized? Of course. Yet, Paul said that the one who is still fleshly cannot please God. If such a person is the enemy of God, enslaved to sin, how is it that he is able to do such a spiritual and pleasing thing as to desire to be baptized? Obviously, this is impossible. Baptism signifies our death to the old way of life and our resurrection to new life in Christ, as Paul uses it in Romans 6:1-4. Unless we have died to sin, and been raised with Christ in reality prior to our baptism, the symbol becomes meaningless. So we see that the position that posits baptism as the means of regeneration and forgiveness ignores the most basic teachings of Scripture regarding man's inability. In taking the position they do, the baptismal regenerationists not only make man capable of things he is not, but they reduce God's grace to a mere aid, and make the death of Christ a theory that is dependent upon man's act of obedience, rather than the finished and effective work that the Bible teaches it to be (Hebrews 10:10-14).

When we keep in mind the foundational truth that man is unable to save himself, but that salvation is the work of God, we are able to understand why it is said that we are justified by God's grace (Titus 3:7), justified by the blood of Christ (Romans 5:9), and justified by faith. Grace, and the blood of Christ, are both things that are beyond man's ability to manipulate; and faith, if it is true, saving faith, is the gift of God as well. Hence, we are justified by God's action, not by any action of our own. Never is it said that we are justified by baptism.
http://vintage.aomin.org/bapreg.html
Anthony MN

Champlin, MN

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#535894
May 8, 2014
 

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Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
It's hysterical.
I mean, it's like our pointing out the logical fallacy of Sola Scriptura is almost "piling on".
atem does our work for us.
Even better that atem seems to be unaware of what "regenerative" means-i,e, "don't know nuthin' bout no "regenerative", but I'm born-again and you aren't".
Like I keep saying-can't make this stuff up.
lol. From the guy who gave us "Mary was just an incubator and a bad mother, Ananias didn't know what the hell he was doing and Ignatius was a kook"...

They know it and we know it. The only thing they agree on is " the Catholic Church ain't the one, true yada, yada..."

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if water baptism saves, then Jesus died an unnecessary and horrible death.

but when we read the words of John the Baptism, he allowed that his work of water baptism to Repentance would soon be over and done with.

and after the death of Jesus, only His sacrifice would cleanse the soul of mankind, therefore water baptism must only follow the Born Again Spiritual Experience, and this is how it is ALWAYS recorded after His death. and there were no EXCEPTIONS, nor can any be found.lol

“OneLordOneFaithE ph4:5”

Since: Apr 08

Saint John Paul II Pray forUS.

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#535896
May 8, 2014
 

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Michael wrote

" catholic school attendance secondary and elementary DOWN"

Star writes.......

Then why are Catholic schools multiplying ?

Hmmmmm ?

Catholic elementary schools 1970-2013
89,112
79,424
78,160
85,043
89,457
91,480

Catholic secondary schools 1970 - 2013
25,552
27,542
30,404
33,349
35,559
39,096
43,591
Students in Catholic secondary schools 1970- 2013
7.667m
9.522m
12.066m
13.232m
14.027m
16.232m
17.794m
Dan

United States

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#535897
May 8, 2014
 

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atemcowboy wrote:
<quoted text>I have no problem with what is written in the Bible, and those words were a commandment from Jesus to the disciples.
this is the description that He gave them and it doesn't show that when they teach them and make disciples out of them and Baptize them that it would be an automatic indwelling of the holy Ghost and not one person but an ignorant one could read that in His Command to them(and you qualify).
show me where ONE person received the Holy Ghost when they were baptized. you cant because it doesn't happen like that.
Well, I received the Holy Ghost at Baptism. It happened "like that". Now that we've got that out of the way-

Why would Jesus command the disciples to baptize if it was to no effect? That's kind of odd, isn't it?

No wonder you don't like me posting to you.
Regina

Toms River, NJ

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#535898
May 8, 2014
 

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Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
I never understand the "shame on the Cross" thing.
Christ's suffering and death on the Cross was a necessary predicate to His resurrection, all of which was part of God's divine plan.
It's like saying the cake is great but don't show anyone beating the eggs.
I don't either. To be honest, I never encountered it before coming to this board. Maybe I don't get out enough or something, but I thought all Christians worshiped Christ in His passion and death, whether or not they displayed a corpus on their crosses. Apparently not. Strange.
Dan

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May 8, 2014
 

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atemcowboy wrote:
A Brief Rebuttal of Baptismal Regeneration
by James White
"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed...but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." So wrote the Apostle Peter to the early Christians (1 Peter 1:18-19). He, as all the other Apostles, believed that we are redeemed, cleansed, forgiven, in the blood of Jesus Christ. Yet, there are many today who would replace the blood of Christ with the water of a baptistery. They teach that we are regenerated, made alive, cleansed, by water baptism. Some insist that it must be baptism by immersion; others say that sprinkling accomplishes the same thing. In either case, the work of Jesus Christ on the cross cannot be said to be finished and efficacious until man does something--in this case, adds his work of baptism to the work of God in Christ. Baptism is said to be the means of salvation, the method by which Christ's work at Calvary is taken from the merely theoretical to the actual.
It is not our intention to engage in a lengthy discussion of the topic of baptismal regeneration in this article. Such would require far more space than we have available at this time! Instead, we wish to point out a basic, foundational error of the position taken by such groups as the Church of Christ and the Mormon Church--both have some doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Then, we will briefly respond to a couple of the more often used proof-texts provided by proponents of baptismal regeneration. We realize that there is a whole area of discussion that we are leaving to the side by taking this approach, that being the sacramental concept of regeneration in infant baptism. This view is found in Roman Catholicism (indeed, baptism is the original means of justification in Roman theology) and in various of the sacramentally-oriented Protestant churches.
Underlying the idea that man, by an action such as baptism, can bring about his own regeneration, is the rejection of the Biblical teaching of sin, and most especially, the truth that sin enslaves man, debilitates man, brings spiritual death to man. The Lord Jesus spoke clearly of this truth:
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin" (John 8:31-34).
Man in sin must be freed from slavery to sin. He cannot free Himself, but must be freed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. This is an offensive truth to the unregenerate man, as the response from these would-be self-made disciples indicates (8:41, 48). Men do not like to hear that they are, in fact, totally dependent upon God's grace for salvation--they do not want to know that they are incapable of saving themselves, or even of coming unto Christ for salvation, outside of God's gracious drawing (John 6:44). But as the Lord Himself said, we are slaves to sin. Slaves must be freed.
Wait-

Why are we are reading anything from this "James White" person? I don't know who he is. Why are you providing his thoughts? Neither Anthony nor I asked what "James White" thinks about anything.

I though you interpreted the Bible yourself, atem. You said you did. A lot of times you said you did.

What a letdown.
Anthony MN

Champlin, MN

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#535900
May 8, 2014
 
atemcowboy wrote:
A Brief Rebuttal of Baptismal Regeneration
by James White
"For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed...but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect." So wrote the Apostle Peter to the early Christians (1 Peter 1:18-19). He, as all the other Apostles, believed that we are redeemed, cleansed, forgiven, in the blood of Jesus Christ. Yet, there are many today who would replace the blood of Christ with the water of a baptistery. They teach that we are regenerated, made alive, cleansed, by water baptism. Some insist that it must be baptism by immersion; others say that sprinkling accomplishes the same thing. In either case, the work of Jesus Christ on the cross cannot be said to be finished and efficacious until man does something--in this case, adds his work of baptism to the work of God in Christ. Baptism is said to be the means of salvation, the method by which Christ's work at Calvary is taken from the merely theoretical to the actual.
It is not our intention to engage in a lengthy discussion of the topic of baptismal regeneration in this article. Such would require far more space than we have available at this time! Instead, we wish to point out a basic, foundational error of the position taken by such groups as the Church of Christ and the Mormon Church--both have some doctrine of baptismal regeneration. Then, we will briefly respond to a couple of the more often used proof-texts provided by proponents of baptismal regeneration. We realize that there is a whole area of discussion that we are leaving to the side by taking this approach, that being the sacramental concept of regeneration in infant baptism. This view is found in Roman Catholicism (indeed, baptism is the original means of justification in Roman theology) and in various of the sacramentally-oriented Protestant churches.
Underlying the idea that man, by an action such as baptism, can bring about his own regeneration, is the rejection of the Biblical teaching of sin, and most especially, the truth that sin enslaves man, debilitates man, brings spiritual death to man. The Lord Jesus spoke clearly of this truth:
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin" (John 8:31-34).
Man in sin must be freed from slavery to sin. He cannot free Himself, but must be freed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. This is an offensive truth to the unregenerate man, as the response from these would-be self-made disciples indicates (8:41, 48). Men do not like to hear that they are, in fact, totally dependent upon God's grace for salvation--they do not want to know that they are incapable of saving themselves, or even of coming unto Christ for salvation, outside of God's gracious drawing (John 6:44). But as the Lord Himself said, we are slaves to sin. Slaves must be freed.
You are not in biblical agreement with James White on many fronts. Why do you think you can pick and choose what to agree with him on? James White's buddy William Webster said this:

"The doctrine of baptism is one of the few teachings within Roman Catholicism for which it can be said that there is a universal consent of the Fathers....From the early days of the Church, baptism was universally perceived as the means of receiving four basic gifts: the remission of sins, deliverance from death, regeneration, and the bestowal of the Holy Spirit." (Webster, page 95-96)
Anthony MN

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#535901
May 8, 2014
 

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atemcowboy wrote:
if water baptism saves, then Jesus died an unnecessary and horrible death.
but when we read the words of John the Baptism, he allowed that his work of water baptism to Repentance would soon be over and done with.
and after the death of Jesus, only His sacrifice would cleanse the soul of mankind, therefore water baptism must only follow the Born Again Spiritual Experience, and this is how it is ALWAYS recorded after His death. and there were no EXCEPTIONS, nor can any be found.lol
St. Peter: "Baptism saves you now..."

“Greatest Love”

Since: Aug 08

For His Creation

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#535902
May 8, 2014
 
June VanDerMark wrote:
<quoted text>
Until you stop preaching at women what they should do to prevent pregnancy, you can't learn from them.
You are so arrogant as to believe that if you ran the world everything would be perfect ... and that is YOUR problem.
One example will help you to learn ... A young girl doesn't think of anything but how to please her boyfriend, and so against her "better judgment" she has unprotected sex because that's what HE wants. She gets pregnant.
Do you GET my drift???
You are so lustful of pleasing a supposed god, you can't think beyond the silliness of what you in-"jested" from your buy-bull.
Duh, June ...but no excuse to KILL A CHILD ...none ....
Anthony MN

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atemcowboy wrote:
looks like I aint afraid to speak out against cib or anyone else who is wrong. and I have withstood him in the past and would in the future also.lol
Right, you're an equal opportunity ignoramus.

Since: Jan 08

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Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
lol. From the guy who gave us "Mary was just an incubator and a bad mother, Ananias didn't know what the hell he was doing and Ignatius was a kook"...
They know it and we know it. The only thing they agree on is " the Catholic Church ain't the one, true yada, yada..."
lol, I proved that mary was ONLY a surrogate mom, the Bible proves that Jesus never told paul to be baptized and that he would receive the Holy Ghost,

and yeah, iggie was a kook and Irenaeus aint that much better than him. when Irenaeus wrote his prose about Naaman, he never wrote a commentary, it was nothing but Prose, meant to tickle the ears of idiots like you Anthony.

going back to mary, her agreeing to carry the messiah agrees completely with the legal description of surrogacy, even if you don't like it.

Jesus was not related to her in any way, shape or form(a body hast thou prepared for me)lol
LTM

Canada

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Regina wrote:
<quoted text>
It was Christ who redeemed us. The shedding of blood means death of the body.
The Precious Blood still retains the accident of wine, Rose. By the power of the Holy Spirit through a properly ordained priest, it is changed into the Precious Blood of Christ. The change has taken place substantially not elementally, the substance has changed not the species. Therefore, the alcohol content remains. The same is true for the Precious Body, the change is substantial not elemental. I remember being taught this in first grade.
I don't understand why you won't read the links or quotes we provide. There is so much rich theology behind Catholic doctrines that it usually requires more than a one or two sentence answer to your questions. The links will provide you with a much more detailed answer. As it is, even then, there's usually more to it.
THE PERCIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS, WAS NOT FULL OF FERMENTED WINE; Regina.
nor is the body of Christ a wafer. WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU . WHAT IS BEHIND THE CATHOLIC DOCTRINE IS LIES, PURE AND SIMPLE.

“Greatest Love”

Since: Aug 08

For His Creation

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#535906
May 8, 2014
 
Regina wrote:
<quoted text>
"If your doc tried to set your broken leg without an xray, he'd be guilty of malprartice ...docs,look inside before invasive proceddres EXCEPT ABORTIONS.....pure political nonsense...afraid the woman might look and change her mind..THAT IS NOT INFORMED consent ..which IMO is criminal. And in any other context would get the clinics sued "
Excellent point.
Thanks, we agree. Thing is they say they love women, want what's best for her, but then fight to prevent ultrasounds...utter nonsense agreed all the time on the abortion forum....like she's smart enough to make a choice but not to possibly look at or hear an ultrasounds if it's,there ...that's,purely suspending her informed consent about what she's actually doing ...they get livid citing extra costs, hypocrnsy at its,it most .....

I never saw,an ultrasounds of my kids, not available but have seen my grandkids.

Can you imagine a,teen has an abortion then a few,years,later she's,married, having a baby , watching :( this,supposed clump of cells growing inside her, hearing a,heartbeat) I cannot fathom the heartbreak she must feel ....but the proaborts say well she had a choice ..it's,on her ....it's a,lie from the EVIL ONE is what it is ....

They hate crisis pregnancy center's , say they take away choice when they offer ultrasounds , baloney, the woman actually IS,INFORMED .

ABORTION IS,FATAL ,cannot be rescinded...and breaks the hearts of women ....
Dan

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atemcowboy wrote:
<quoted text>lol, I proved that mary was ONLY a surrogate mom, the Bible proves that Jesus never told paul to be baptized and that he would receive the Holy Ghost,
and yeah, iggie was a kook and Irenaeus aint that much better than him. when Irenaeus wrote his prose about Naaman, he never wrote a commentary, it was nothing but Prose, meant to tickle the ears of idiots like you Anthony.
going back to mary, her agreeing to carry the messiah agrees completely with the legal description of surrogacy, even if you don't like it.
Jesus was not related to her in any way, shape or form(a body hast thou prepared for me)lol
LMAO

Hey, Anthony-

Obviously, the phrase "you're already in a hole; stop digging" isn't in the Bible (or James White didn't write it), because atem's clearly unfamiliar with it.

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