Roman Catholic church only true churc...

Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

There are 665126 comments on the CBC News story from Jul 10, 2007, titled Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican. In it, CBC News reports that:

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CBC News.

Clay

Saint Paul, MN

#477655 Sep 22, 2013
atemcowboy wrote:
<quoted text>you still havent gotten it figured out yet, have you clay?
it isn't me that you are calling a liar it is God.
lol. Can i tell you an honest true story? Last week i was asked to be in my childhood friends wedding. I asked them where they were getting married, they said probably a nice park. I asked them who was going to marry them and she said her little brother. Apparently he is going to pay $29.99 to get a certificate that says he's a minister. This is what the Protestants have created. Its a mockery of Christianity.
So Preston, declaring yourself a Minister means absolutely nothing to me. Studying Greek and memorizing every line of the NT means nothing to me either. Your stories of conversing orally with God of your Grand daddy conversing the Apostle Paul is all nonsense. The office of the sacramental Priesthood established by Jesus Christ is the only one that matters. That's not denying that we are ALL called to spread the good news, but its got to be in communion with the Church. You can't just take their scriptures and run off on your own!

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#477657 Sep 22, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>You both have added so much to this forum,bringing the reality of what life is,marriage,and pain,all the trimmings,and a good dose of humor as well! May He keep you both energized in Him,who is the Author of everything we are in this life that is g o o d and wholesome,and funny!
Thank you so my for those kind words.They touched my heart and brought tears to my eyes.It is what it is! there are many turns and bumps in that roas of life and sometimes you hit a pot hole! Whats matters is nest time will you try to avoid that same pot hole next time or hit it again....God Bless..(I think right now nickie and I are on a dirt road!! LOL)
Human Being

Iowa, LA

#477658 Sep 22, 2013
atemcowboy wrote:
<quoted text>supposing that you are correct (but you are not), please explain to all of us using your vast knowledge of Koine Greek, that Matthew also speaks of Jesus having half SISTERS and one is even named.lol
only a person who is brainwashed would believe the lies told to them by the catholic church.
first we have the word ahthelphos for brothers(instead of adelphi, singular) and then Matthew uses the word "adhelfi" for sisters.
I love it that you think some monk born centuries later knows more about that family than the gospel writer.
Preston

Peace

Incorrect:

Adelphos

Adelphi

I will not go further, as it would be a waste of time to correct your understanding, since you can't even correctly spell the Greek.

Teach what you want to see, and believe it to be true, is the false prophets doom.

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#477659 Sep 22, 2013
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
You two big dummies know that some of your talk is not for the young or to be tolerated among true Christians, who may both view this message board, right?
that is correct. the fact that mary and joseph had a marital relationship is not the point as far as they are concerned.

it is the gutter talk that comes from their posts that many object to, but they, being carnal, care nothing that others reading these posts might and do find their words objectionable
LTM

Longlac, Canada

#477660 Sep 22, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>NASL,that leaves all of us in a precarious position,if we have to consider all the possible answers to prayer,before we pray! When little ones pray the angels who attend them present their requests before the Lord. The Apostle Paul wanted to go be with the Lord,but he prayed that although he would be better off in heaven,he was needed here to continue serving Christ.
The whole point of prayer for believers is communication and seeking the presence of the Creator in their lives.The Lord Jesus Himself prayed daily and in the evenings,He is our example!
The sad things that happen,and the fact that it would seem that God is not hearing us when we pray,all the more should keep us praying.Because the Word tells us,that unbelief frustrates our communication with God, and "without faith it is impossible to Please God."
The crux of the matter is this NASL: Believers in Christ do not reason the same way the world reasons,we are called to take on the Mind of Christ The Bible is a blueprint of the Mindset of the Creator,and within the content of that Book are many pointers,and guides to s h a p e the believers who are on that path of faith,which ultimately pleases God.So the Word,plus,a person's faith,and the continued prayer life work together to mold the finished product as it were of a believer's life.
The fact that many human beings die prematurely,and the story you shared about the little one(girl) who froze to death on Christmas Day,brings great sorrow to the living,but to the Creator He views death in a different way than we do,as we are hidden from the complete knowledge of life and death.
The news is packed with every week occurrences of people dying due to a sniper's bullet,or terrorism,accidents,weather disasters, and you name it. Look at the recent shooting in WashDC at the Naval complex,by that one disturbed former Navy man,12 people who woke up that morning thinking they would get through another working day,and perhaps had plans for the evening with loved ones,instead were snuffed away by bullets from a man,who's security clearance was never deactivated since 2008.
No doubt one or two or maybe all of the 12 prayed that morning for a safe and peaceful day,even asking God for protection with Angels attending.We are going to see more of this ,as it does continue to happen,in spite of the "Best laid plans of Mice and Men." Why pray? Because "Without faith it is impossible to please God."That brings out a relationship that God wants to have with all of humanity,as He is OMNIPRESENT.Death although to us is terrible,and grievous,it is viewed by God as an opening to His eternal life.
We want that gift of eternal life,and JESUS is the key to that!
Amen Amen

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#477661 Sep 22, 2013
Human Being wrote:
<quoted text>
Preston
Peace
Incorrect:
Adelphos
Adelphi
I will not go further, as it would be a waste of time to correct your understanding, since you can't even correctly spell the Greek.
Teach what you want to see, and believe it to be true, is the false prophets doom.
Robert, I studied Greek back in the 80's, when did you?

and there is NO WAY that a catholic could ever correct a Christian, they are on two different planes

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#477662 Sep 22, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>Heck,Anthony,even that was a topic of debate for centuries.
Reformers mentioned were all priests at one time. Surely they may have led a serious movement to challenge Catholicism,but they also were men who had to study the Word on their own.Perhaps it would seem that the Reformers were not aware of what was Scriptural as they led their own brand of rebellion against the Roman Church.
One issue at a time,not the whole Bible,or even the Word,but traditions and practices that were part a parcel of their Church caused deep concern within these men, OR they would not have caused such a raucous.
These early Reformers were mostly religious members of Holy Orders were they not? None of them just decided one day to defy Holy Writ,they had many reasons to bring them to that place of decision.
Along with the things they openly viewed about the corruption and practices of the Roman Church that finally offended these men,strongly caused them to search the Scriptures. But until they spent much time studying the Word for themselves,and for the basis they needed to confront the Church,all of what they believed had already been ingrained in them.That would include the Sacraments and doctrines of Mary and the Papacy.
The years each Reformer spent in the process of their own rebellion as it were or dissension was like an onion being peeled layer by layer.
What these Reformers,along with many of their followers as well,concluded had to be unraveled slowly,with much anguish and pain,especially when they used the Word of God to refute their Church.It could not have been easy,or a shallow undertaking.
And what might have been quoted by these individuals at one junction,could very well been the opposite years later,so we have much contention they experienced,which led to what you see today as major doctrinal differences between Catholicism-Protestantism and Orthodoxy.
Excellent insight into the Reformation.It woke me up to the ordeal of some who were true and sincere in their beliefs and sincere in their belief in the Church, who had to endure sorrow and uncertainty as they left the Church for uncharted waters.Yes, some reformers were corrupt. But, some were sincerely wanting to remain true to Christ.We cannot not forget these ones as we "cheer for our team" and "debase the other team".
marge

Leesburg, GA

#477663 Sep 22, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
<quoted text>I understand what you are saying and the power of what you are saying.I do believe one can be Born Again outside of a denomination.I believe that we are saved through the blood of Christ.As far as once saved always saved I do not believe this.To me this does not reduce the power of Christ's saving grace. I believe that God always respects free will. I believe that Christ's love is so strong that He will go to the ends of the earth and more save us.He is our life raft. He saves us.We cannot earn that. But I believe God always respects our free will
Hey some nice articles on free-will here;

'So we need to ask ourselves how does libertarian free will fit in with God’s sovereignty? Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs:“In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps”(Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/libertarian-free-...

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#477664 Sep 22, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>You both have added so much to this forum,bringing the reality of what life is,marriage,and pain,all the trimmings,and a good dose of humor as well! May He keep you both energized in Him,who is the Author of everything we are in this life that is g o o d and wholesome,and funny!
God Bless You, Pad.You are one of a kind.I always feel Christ in your posts.If this is what Evangelical means, God Bless them.

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#477665 Sep 22, 2013
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey some nice articles on free-will here;
'So we need to ask ourselves how does libertarian free will fit in with God’s sovereignty? Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs:“In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps”(Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/libertarian-free-...
Thank you, Marge. I will certainly read this.I appreciate your sharing the info.

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#477666 Sep 22, 2013
Human Being wrote:
<quoted text>
Preston
Peace
Incorrect:
Adelphos
Adelphi
I will not go further, as it would be a waste of time to correct your understanding, since you can't even correctly spell the Greek.
Teach what you want to see, and believe it to be true, is the false prophets doom.
Robert, lets make this real simple for you.

what text was I using when I used those two words?

this is a very simple test for a great Greek scholar such as yourself.

anyhow, in Matthew, when the word adelphos is used, it denotes a follower of Jesus as any person with a very basic knowledge of Koine Greek knows. and taking this word even further and adding something to it(preface) we find in the book of Galatians that paul called some (pseudo)adelphos.

I had top pay a lot to learn, you got a FREE [email protected]

and to help you out further, there are several different dialects in the ancient Greek texts, that WERE USED!!!! which sometimes spelled a word a little different than say from another part of the world. yet I could understand that word and what it means. while A PERSON LIKE YOU would never know by reading it.

so don't pass yourself off as a Greek or Biblical Scholar since you are not.

you had some hours to try and prove that I was wrong by using Google or a form of it. I didnt

Since: Dec 11

Location hidden

#477667 Sep 22, 2013
marge wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey some nice articles on free-will here;
'So we need to ask ourselves how does libertarian free will fit in with God’s sovereignty? Can a human being, a creature, be autonomous if God is sovereign? The obvious conclusion is that libertarian free will is incompatible with the sovereignty of God. Consider this passage from the book of Proverbs:“In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps”(Proverbs 16:9). This does not paint a picture of man as an autonomous being, but rather as man operating within the confines of a sovereign God.
Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/libertarian-free-...
==========
I read the article.My honest response is:

1 I haven't changed my belief. However, the writer certainly makes a solid argument.It answered some questions I had about holding man accountable even if we say he does not have "libertarian free will"

2 I think the quote from Isaiah is the most powerful in showing a Bible basis for his arguments.

3. Though many would say his statement that if it appear unreasonable and contradictory that man could be responsible yet God have sovereign power, we have to accept we do not have the "mind of God" Some would say that is "wishy washy".I have no problem with that thought. In fact I fully endorse it.

Hey thanks. Be well.

Since: Jan 08

Location hidden

#477668 Sep 22, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>There is only O N E Immaculate Conception,the Lord Jesus Christ. He is in the Scriptures as being without Sin,and no human being before Christ,or after Christ was born without sin,or was sinless. John the Baptist knew his own shortcomings that is why he although sent by God to prepare the Way of Christ,he spent almost all of his years preaching repentance,and baptizing the House of Israel. Yet he was full of the Spirit in the womb,as Elizabeth was given that revelation about her son. His innocence as a baby in the womb proved the Holy Spirit would be leading John right to his death by Herod's evil command.
Was John the Baptist born sinless? No,Zachariah and Elizabeth both were Jews born of the seed of Adam,and they together biologically contributed to the life of John,although blessed in the womb,and a mystery child born of elderly parents. The KEY is always that we are born of the seed of Adam,the whole human race.NONE of us are Divine,and incarnated into human flesh,only the Lord Jesus Himself.
Mary's parents were both members of the sinful human race born of the seed of Adam,neither were they born of a Virgin,nor having a Divine Parent.Mary's sinless state of Grace was awarded to her by the Angel Gabriel at her annunciation,simple as that!
PAD. gonna disagree with you and your early life as a catholic shows on this statement.

{Mary's sinless state of Grace was awarded to her by the Angel Gabriel at her annunciation,simple as that}.

now look closely at your words. You have chosen to give Gabe the power to forgive sin and only God can state that to a human, NOT AN ANGEL.

Gabe came to her and told her that God had a [job] for her to do. why make it into more than that. that is what the catholics are trying to push on us and it just isn't Biblical.

gabe cant and didn't make her sinless with his conversation with her, so why try and exploit the false teachings of Catholicism?

the Bible is clear that after she had the God Child, she presented a sin sacrifice, if as you presume, she had been pronounced [sinless] this would not have been needed
LTM

Longlac, Canada

#477669 Sep 22, 2013
RoSesz wrote:
Dear Father
Here we are ..another week passed .
We bring to your feet our Brother Preston who has lost his,dear friend,..please bring him comfort and his friends wife also comfort her ..
Thank you for bringing Kay home .
Once again we ask for healing for those in need .
I ask for my husband eh o is in so much pain from his injuries ..please let this new,treatment help..And I thank you that so far,it has brought him some relief .
I ask for all of us in our infirmities. For relief if it is your will..You know their needs better than we do.
We ask you o reach out to our loved ones who do not know you ..You have a,farther reaching SPIRIT ..t Han.our poor efforts .
We pray fir our country that she will draw closer to you instead of slipping farther away
Please guide our leaders in peaceful pursuits .
Thank.You that it seems your will.That we not be at war
Right now .
We pray for your country Israel and its people that hey May know and do your will
We know you have a,plan FATHER .
I.pray th a in some small way we all may be a part of that plan..
I.pray for peace as best as we are,able among us as we are the servants of your Dear Son
No matter OUR DIFFERENCES.
WE ASK IN JEDYS NAME ...AMEN
Amen, I thank you Lord for the many blessings we have recieved from you on this forum, that we are able to pray for our brothers and sister that we have not seen as yet but are joined together by the blood line of our Lord and King Jesus Christ.
I also Lord pray for those of us on here who do not agree with the teachings of the Bible, because of them we have searched the scriptures more and have grown and matured because of it.
What the devil means for evil you mean it for good.
I praise you Lord and give you all the glory for the answer of Prayers, with you all things are possible, when we say I can't you say I can.

Amen in Jesus Name.
marge

Leesburg, GA

#477670 Sep 22, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
<quoted text>==========
I read the article.My honest response is:
1 I haven't changed my belief. However, the writer certainly makes a solid argument.It answered some questions I had about holding man accountable even if we say he does not have "libertarian free will"
2 I think the quote from Isaiah is the most powerful in showing a Bible basis for his arguments.
3. Though many would say his statement that if it appear unreasonable and contradictory that man could be responsible yet God have sovereign power, we have to accept we do not have the "mind of God" Some would say that is "wishy washy".I have no problem with that thought. In fact I fully endorse it.
Hey thanks. Be well.
One more paragraph that sums it up,

'But how can man, limited by a sin nature, ever choose what is good? It is only through the grace and power of God that free will truly becomes “free” in the sense of being able to choose salvation (John 15:16). It is the Holy Spirit who works in and through a person’s will to regenerate that person (John 1:12-13) and give him/her a new nature “created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness”(Ephesians 4:24). Salvation is God’s work. At the same time, our motives, desires, and actions are voluntary, and we are rightly held responsible for them.'

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/free-will.html#ix...

Thanks Hermi, God Bless

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 53:1.--6 "MATT 10:27"

#477671 Sep 22, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
James WAS Jesus' brother... Just not biological. Mary didn't have anymore biological children because nobody in their right mind would procreate with her after God did. Of course, you guys think she was a incompetent piece of meat who just happened to say yes to God. Right? If she hadn't said yes, God would have simply found another lady down the street?
I hope your grandkids will change the word of God BACK to what was originally taught. Your interpretations and additions will be in the dust bins of history. I strongly believe with the information superhighway, the plague of Protestantism will finally come to an end and the serious Christians will cease being so dang ignorant and come into the only Church started by Jesus Christ, the Catholic Church.
YOU WROTE

Protestantism will finally come to an end..

YES

WE WILL BE NO LONGER BE ON THE EARTH ...TO PLEAD THE BLOOD OF JESUS FOR/WITH YOU..

WE WILL BE CAUGHT UP TO BE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.

.while you and the rest of your pagans

will join up with the antichrist AND CONTINUE HIS INQUISITION..

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#477672 Sep 22, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>There is only O N E Immaculate Conception,the Lord Jesus Christ. He is in the Scriptures as being without Sin,and no human being before Christ,or after Christ was born without sin,or was sinless. John the Baptist knew his own shortcomings that is why he although sent by God to prepare the Way of Christ,he spent almost all of his years preaching repentance,and baptizing the House of Israel. Yet he was full of the Spirit in the womb,as Elizabeth was given that revelation about her son. His innocence as a baby in the womb proved the Holy Spirit would be leading John right to his death by Herod's evil command.
Was John the Baptist born sinless? No,Zachariah and Elizabeth both were Jews born of the seed of Adam,and they together biologically contributed to the life of John,although blessed in the womb,and a mystery child born of elderly parents. The KEY is always that we are born of the seed of Adam,the whole human race.NONE of us are Divine,and incarnated into human flesh,only the Lord Jesus Himself.
Mary's parents were both members of the sinful human race born of the seed of Adam,neither were they born of a Virgin,nor having a Divine Parent.Mary's sinless state of Grace was awarded to her by the Angel Gabriel at her annunciation,simple as that!
"Mary's sinless state of Grace was awarded to her by the Angel Gabriel at her annunciation,simple as that!"

Congratulations!!!! You have just now called the Holy Spirit a liar!!!!

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

“" THE WORD WAS MADE FLESH!"”

Since: Jun 10

"ISA 53:1.--6 "MATT 10:27"

#477673 Sep 22, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
<quoted text>
YOU WROTE
Protestantism will finally come to an end..
YES
WE WILL BE NO LONGER BE ON THE EARTH ...TO PLEAD THE BLOOD OF JESUS FOR/WITH YOU..
WE WILL BE CAUGHT UP TO BE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.
.while you and the rest of your pagans
will join up with the antichrist AND CONTINUE HIS INQUISITION..
~~~

How Great Thou Art!
Worldwide Version (excluding North & South America):

1.
O LORD my God! When I in awesome wonder
Consider all the works Thy hand hath made;
I see the stars, I hear the mighty thunder,
Thy pow’r throughout the universe displayed:

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art! How great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art! How great Thou art!

2.

When through the woods and forest glades I wander
And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees;
When I look down from lofty mountain grandeur,
And hear the brook, and feel the gentle breeze:

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art! How great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art! How great Thou art!

3.

And when I think that God, His Son not sparing,
Sent Him to die - I scarce can take it in:
That on the Cross, my burden gladly bearing,
He bled and died to take away my sin:

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art! How great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art! How great Thou art!

4.

When Christ shall come with shout of acclamation
And take me home - what joy shall fill my heart!
Then shall I bow in humble adoration,
And there proclaim, my God how great Thou art!

Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art! How great Thou art!
Then sings my soul, my Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art! How great Thou art!

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#477674 Sep 22, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>What evangelical circles have you been in lately? I have heard some of the best preaching from women.Women are very much involved in the mainstream of evangelical churches,missions,charities and so on.You and confrint are sounding a bit elderly here!
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

SBC...
The Church

A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.

The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3.

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#477675 Sep 22, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>Seraphima,knows what the best things to do when especially a married couple are hit with terrible distress. I could not add or detract from her good post to you,back on page #####39.It has been one of the roughest weeks of my life since returning to work.No details,but I have not had time to get on this computer till tonight.Going back a ways to see what has been posted.Same old stuff.But I will tell you NASL that your time of stress concerning your wife gives you much to face and if possible reflect upon,of what is most important between the t w o of you .All that you have learned will help you to rally!But,do not beat yourself up when you take time to suffer along with her either,you share those things,both the good and the challenging/
Again, you touched my heart!..GOD BLESS..

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Top Stories Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Hillary can win! 3 min Nipz8146 17
Ladies, do u wear minis to get touched up or pu... (Nov '12) 6 min Lucy 1979 95
The Fake News About Fake News 7 min Lollypop4364 2
Selling a controlled substance 10 min Squirtzzz2572 5
Hey girls add jbibby35 for fat cock 14 min Mints5312 2
College girls sleepin' with 'Sugar Daddys' are ... 18 min Charm3950 2
Moronnz eavsdropping on my phone calls 21 min Rose3664 2
Queen Cleopatra was clearly Black. White people... (Aug '10) 1 hr gundee123 1,226
my cousin touches me when i am asleep and i kin... (Mar '14) 2 hr Glitter7145 63
The Christian Atheist debate (Jun '15) 2 hr karl44 87,900
More from around the web