Roman Catholic church only true churc...

Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

There are 641229 comments on the CBC News story from Jul 10, 2007, titled Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican. In it, CBC News reports that:

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CBC News.

Regina

Bloomfield, NJ

#473622 Aug 28, 2013
Hermeneutics Smutics wrote:
<quoted text>Sure. My Church is imperfect. It is full of sinners. It humbly tries to follow Christ's teachings.It is not fit to tie the sandals of Chist. It cannot contain neither Christ or the Holy Spirit
and cannot presume to be the sole door to them.It does its best, has nothing to be proud of, and depends on the grace and salvation of Christ for which it is unworthy.
1. Orthodoxy is the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of mankind, and therefore we should guard with our life the purity of its teaching and our own faithfulness to it. In the Orthodox Church alone is grace given through the sacraments (most other churches don’t even claim to have sacraments in any serious sense). The Orthodox Church alone is the Body of Christ, and if salvation is difficult enough within the Orthodox Church, how much more difficult must it be outside the Church!
http://thehandmaid.wordpress.com/holy-orthodo...
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473623 Aug 28, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
I'm smart - yes. In the least, I rcvd directly what "God" wants to do - and not thorugh some unknown author.
Why?
<quoted text>
I do look within to address and hopefully help resolve the crosses I bear. How else do you think I can correct my faults?
You aren't jealous that I am, are you?
<quoted text>
So-called "Christians" have their "eyes wide open" because they can't comprehend all that have been told for them to believe, so they stay in a stunned pose. Sort of like a "deer in headlight" look.
If the Christian saints look stunned it's for a good reason.

If the Buddhist saints look stoned it's for a good reason.
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

#473624 Aug 28, 2013
Regina wrote:
<quoted text>
Anthony, she thinks it's me. Remember back when one of the non-Catholics was posting sets of ten or twenty of the stupid things on all our posts? I looked around topix and found some boards where people talked about that kind of nonsense and a few explained that there were some ways to post multiples icons. I even posted about it to the board a few times. I happened to tell her about it and now she thinks that every time the icons change, it's me, lol!!
I have no idea why she thinks there's some kind of special handshake or code word required. All one has to do is judge the post and either one, two, or all three icons will change. If more than one person judges, they will definitely change. People do lurk on these boards all the time. What a surprise!!!!
I know this is more than you ever wanted to know about judging topix posts, LOL! Frankly, I think they're stupid and seldom use them anymore unless something is funny. I'm not sure why they bother her so much or why she thinks every time one is posted that it's me. Every time she shows up all the Catholic posts are judged negatively, so we could easily say the same thing about her. But then again, according to those two, every Catholic who posts here is me in disguise.:)
A little paranoid if you ask me.
I don't know why anyone even cares about those stupid things. Just another weapon for criticism I guess.
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473625 Aug 28, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
As I stated to Anthony - no it doesn't.
The Jews only accept Jesus as a prophet, lower than "God", and not as the "Messiah".
No fulfillment.
IMO - "replaced" is a better description, because then it makes the NT exclusive.
If there were any truth to what you say, Jews would be using the Bible jsut as much as you try.
<quoted text>
I didn't say that at all.
Why do you want to change my statement around?
Your question has nothing to do with what I said. But you Catholics, love to do shite like that - twist it around to whatever way you think you can "call me out with". It won't work.
What I did say, Jews don't believe Jesus was the "Messiah", and they also believe he is lower than "God".
Both of which negates Christianity's claim of:
a. Jesus is "God"
b. Jesus was the "Messiah".
<quoted text>
1. Jews don't use the "Christian" bible nor do they use the New Testament as part of their literature.
So whatever you are trying to convey, you are already incorrect in your thinking.
These links give a very good overview of Jewish beliefs.
http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/w...
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index...
from the last link:
Jews still hold to the tenets of their beliefs and practices. In Torah, actions are far more important than beliefs, although there is certainly a place for belief.
1. God exists
2. God is one and unique
3. God is incorporeal
4. God is eternal
5. Prayer is to be directed to God alone and to no other
6. The words of the prophets are true
7. Moses' prophecy is better than any other prophet's
8. Written Torah/Oral Torah were given to Moses
9. There will be no other Torah
10. God knows the thoughts and deeds of men
11. God will reward the good and punish the wicked
12. The Messiah will come
13. The dead will be resurrected
Torah focuses on relationships:
* Between God and mankind (both as individuals and as groups)
* Between human beings (whether Jews, or Gentiles, or both)
* Between God and the Jewish nation
* Between the Jewish nation and the Land of Israel
The concept that God is one:
* No other being participated in the work of creation.
* God is a single, whole, complete indivisible entity.
- He cannot be divided into parts or described by attributes.
* Any attempt to ascribe attributes to God is merely man's imperfect attempt to understand the infinite.
* God is the only being to whom we should offer praise.
* God is neither male or female: God has no physical form.
Christianity maintains that God has one son; Judaism maintains that God has billions of sons and daughters. We are all God's children.
There are many, many prohibitions in the Torah. One of the more well known one is to not eat animals that don't have cloven hooves AND chew their cud (pork for example).
It is also prohibited to work on Shabbat (Sabbath), etc..
I will post some links for you that should help.
Source(s):
http://www.aish.com
http://www.chabad.org
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/jewfaq/index …
http://www.beingjewish.com
http://www.ou.org/torah/belief.html
So you are saying that the fact of Jesus' Divinity rested on whether or not the Jews accepted Him as Messiah.

You wrote:
"Jews don't believe Jesus was the "Messiah", and they also believe he is lower than "God".
Both of which negates Christianity's claim of:
a. Jesus is "God"
b. Jesus was the "Messiah".
"

You are saying that since they didn't believe He was the Messiah, then He couldn't have been the Messiah.

I'm not twisting anything, I am simply trying to understand what you are saying.

Oh, and thanks for the links, I will investigate them.

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#473626 Aug 28, 2013
Regina wrote:
<quoted text>
Anthony, she thinks it's me. Remember back when one of the non-Catholics was posting sets of ten or twenty of the stupid things on all our posts? I looked around topix and found some boards where people talked about that kind of nonsense and a few explained that there were some ways to post multiples icons. I even posted about it to the board a few times. I happened to tell her about it and now she thinks that every time the icons change, it's me, lol!!
I have no idea why she thinks there's some kind of special handshake or code word required. All one has to do is judge the post and either one, two, or all three icons will change. If more than one person judges, they will definitely change. People do lurk on these boards all the time. What a surprise!!!!
I know this is more than you ever wanted to know about judging topix posts, LOL! Frankly, I think they're stupid and seldom use them anymore unless something is funny. I'm not sure why they bother her so much or why she thinks every time one is posted that it's me. Every time she shows up all the Catholic posts are judged negatively, so we could easily say the same thing about her. But then again, according to those two, every Catholic who posts here is me in disguise.:)
A little paranoid if you ask me.
You yourself told me that you knew how to changed them and also number them yourself.And do it..I kept your name out of it and now you want to insult me personally? How dare you and your Holier than thou self...you of all people need to mind your own business and take care of your own self.I don't not judge every catholic post negative little miss know it all.In fact I have given positive ones were I felt it needed. I unlike you, I do judge them post from time to time.I admit it but not all negative towards Catholics.Just so happens regina since you started posting again those icons started to change again...you changing those icons DOES NOT bother me....it bother you enough to change them..lol...I think its pitiful that you have the need to do it...try to control yourself and start setting a good example for the Catholic Church

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#473627 Aug 28, 2013
Regina wrote:
<quoted text>
1. Orthodoxy is the Church founded by Christ for the salvation of mankind, and therefore we should guard with our life the purity of its teaching and our own faithfulness to it. In the Orthodox Church alone is grace given through the sacraments (most other churches don’t even claim to have sacraments in any serious sense). The Orthodox Church alone is the Body of Christ, and if salvation is difficult enough within the Orthodox Church, how much more difficult must it be outside the Church!
http://thehandmaid.wordpress.com/holy-orthodo...
well said and beautiful...thank you

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473628 Aug 28, 2013
samyaza ancient one wrote:
The Roman Catholic church is not the true Christian Church. back in the day they mixed paganism with Christianity. that is why they bow down to statues. don't get me wrong; I was born into the Catholic faith of Christianity, but during my teens back in the early 80's I started asking Questions to the priest which he couldn't answer or he will get angry. then I left the Catholic faith, and tried the Protestant faith of Christianity, but I couldn't find the answers I was searching for, so now I pray to my "LORD" and "HEAVENLY FATHER"(GOD) alone,and read the bible.
What were the questions you had that you couldn't find "in the Bible"?

Since you appear to have "found your path" can you answer this question for me?

"Where does 'God' specifically state which texts in or or of the Bible are inspired?"

Thanks!
Pad

Rockford, IL

#473629 Aug 28, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
I believe you still are mistaken. The use of images, statues, prayer beads, paintings, scuptures, beautiful architecture, are not done to "please God."
The practices of almsgiving, penance, and fasting are not done to "please God".
These things are for OUR benefit so that we might grow spiritually in order to love God better.
And about kneeling. Catholics kneel during worship and this obviously makes quite a few non-Catholics uncomfortable. They do not understand why this is done. Well, here is why:
God is present during the Mass, and since He is, we should show Him the respect and reverence He deserves. Thus the most appropriate posture is to kneel (if not full face down prostration). Catholics do not leave their bodies at the door of the Church, we bring them with us in worship.
Guess what,you are posting to one who was raised in the thick of Roman Catholicism on the East Coast.I have seen many a person kneel before statues and even kiss them.It is not just a movie shot,but reality.And I know that Catholics kneel out of reverence. By the way,I know it may shock you Catholics but many Prots kneel at times in their services as well.

Kneeling is the main posture for praying.I have been in Evangelical Churches where most of the members would kneel for quite some time and pray for others and so on.I have been in meetings that lasted 2-3 hours where we would first read from the Word,hear something short from the pastors,and than get on our knees to pray.

So kneeling is not only seen in RCChurches.
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473630 Aug 28, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
Self.
<quoted text>
Okay, please admit the following:
a. Men wrote the Bible - no "God" involved.
b. You don't follow all of what Jesus taught.
c. "God" inspired everyone, so any texts written is acceptable and inspired by "God".
d. Jesus is not "God"
e. "Paul" is a third generation disciple and only an Apostle in his eyes.
<quoted text>
You know something, many people seem to claim this, but as of yet, no one has listed those "giant holes", but love to mention them.
What are they?
June seems to think she knows, but she also has yet to puncture my ball to deflate it.
Why you may ask? Well, like you, her "Christian" mentality is still quite alive in the mind, so you both can't seem to steer away from those beliefs, in order to formulate "truths" that would deflate my ball.
But keep at it.....you Catholics can be quite determined to break someone.
<quoted text>
Do you know the truth?
I don't think so either.
<quoted text>
Kinda like the Catholic only group too, huh? Thinking so many false doctines are true, when many have already been debunked.
I wonder why when they are debunked, people still believe them to be true.
Odd, huh?
<quoted text>
All religions are nonsense - to those who have no knowledge of why they came to exist, why they exist today, or why people involve themselves with them.
All these actions require a person to make a choice and apply that choice.
No religion required.
a. Men wrote the Bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
b. You are right, I am not perfectly obedient to what Jesus taught.
c. Not all writings are inspired by God. Obvious enough unless you believe that God has multiple personalities.
d. Jesus is God the Son.

The good news is that Truth can be known. This is the unchanging Creator of the Universe.

Faith is a gift.

Since: Feb 12

Location hidden

#473631 Aug 28, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
And also BTW, did you notice the icons changed on your post? At first it was 3 negatives, now it's negative x 2, and two positives. The system is set up to add up the negatives and positives for each of them and if one outnumbers the other, that's what's displayed. In a few minutes it may change again, not because someone is manipulating it, it's because more positives are being added than negatives.
Well it may be as you say and I may be wrong BuT I know what regina told me. So we both may be right! I believe that it is possible for both ways to happen.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473632 Aug 28, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
Give us a link Nick! Show us where the Orthodox teach consubstantiation. C'mon, Nick, your wife said that's what you teach..show us!
Is that like.....

Please post the link that shows where "God" specifically states which texts are inspired and which are not.

C'mon Anthony, you can do it, because you believe such exists, so you surely have a link that states such is true, right?

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473633 Aug 28, 2013
Regina wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you, that's what I was trying to explain. Even NASL tried to tell her that a few weeks ago, but she ignored him. Anyone can do it. I'm getting sick and tired of their paranoid insults and false accusations.
Great!! Another thing to blame on Gnosticism.

Thanks Regina!

:o)
Regina

Bloomfield, NJ

#473634 Aug 28, 2013
Seraphima wrote:
<quoted text>You yourself told me that you knew how to changed them and also number them yourself.And do it..I kept your name out of it and now you want to insult me personally? How dare you and your Holier than thou self...you of all people need to mind your own business and take care of your own self.I don't not judge every catholic post negative little miss know it all.In fact I have given positive ones were I felt it needed. I unlike you, I do judge them post from time to time.I admit it but not all negative towards Catholics.Just so happens regina since you started posting again those icons started to change again...you changing those icons DOES NOT bother me....it bother you enough to change them..lol...I think its pitiful that you have the need to do it...try to control yourself and start setting a good example for the Catholic Church
Still with the false accusations, you just can't seem to help yourself. Nor do you seem able to grasp the simple concept of judging a topix post. So far, three people have explained it to you and you still insist that I'm the one doing it. You're a hater, Sera, no doubt about it. I'm sorry for you, terribly sorry.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473635 Aug 28, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
So you are saying that the fact of Jesus' Divinity rested on whether or not the Jews accepted Him as Messiah.
You wrote:
"Jews don't believe Jesus was the "Messiah", and they also believe he is lower than "God".
Both of which negates Christianity's claim of:
a. Jesus is "God"
b. Jesus was the "Messiah".
"
You are saying that since they didn't believe He was the Messiah, then He couldn't have been the Messiah.
I'm not twisting anything, I am simply trying to understand what you are saying.
Oh, and thanks for the links, I will investigate them.
People chose and continue to choose on what to believe.

Yes - Judaism does not believe Jesus was the "Messiah".

Whether or not he was an actual "messiah" has never been determined.

IMO - Jesus never actually stated he was any religion's messiah, but did state much about how the Spirit lives after we die, and his message should be accepted. Some folks took it to the extrememand consider him to be that "Messiah" that has yet to arrive for Judaism.
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473636 Aug 28, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
Yep - Self.
Only "for your own benefit" - no "God" involved - all actions are done by you.
This is where you have failed at understanding the difference between fact and belief.
<quoted text>
More Self, huh?
Thanks for promoting it.
Why do you promote something out of one side of your mouth and thoughts, but refute it in the next breath?
Oh, I meant to say earlier about the holes in your arguements. The reason that I haven't delineated precisely where they are and how big they are is because they are so vast it is difficult to know where to start. Though I have been trying to find a starting point. I think where it all breaks down is on the most fundamental level. You don't believe there is absolute truth whereas I do. You don't seem to have an anchor. If you do, then please explain what it is...what is your starting point?
Regina

Bloomfield, NJ

#473637 Aug 28, 2013
Seraphima wrote:
<quoted text>well said and beautiful...thank you
It's also in direct contradiction to what Herme said. There's more:

2. However, it is not for us to define the state of those who are outside the Orthodox Church. If God wishes to grant salvation to some who are Christians in the best way they know, but without ever knowing the Orthodox Church—that is up to Him, not us.**But when He does this, it is outside the normal way that He established for salvation—which is in the Church,** as a part of the Body of Christ. I myself can accept the experience of Protestants being ‘born-again’ in Christ; I have met people who have changed their lives entirely through meeting Christ, and I cannot deny their experience just because they are not Orthodox. I call these people “subjective” or “beginning” Christians. But until they are united to the Orthodox Church they cannot have the fullness of Christianity, they cannot be objectively Christian as belonging to the Body of Christ and receiving the grace of the sacraments. I think this is why there are so many sects among them—they begin the Christian life with a genuine conversion to Christ, but they cannot continue the Christian life in the right way until they are united to the Orthodox Church, and they therefore substitute their own opinions and subjective experiences for the Church’s teaching and sacraments.

About those Christians who are outside the Orthodox Church, therefore, I would say: they do not yet have the full truth—perhaps it just hasn’t been revealed to them yet, or perhaps it is our fault for not living and teaching the Orthodox Faith in a way they can understand.
http://thehandmaid.wordpress.com/holy-orthodo...

Why deny your teachings?
Regina

Bloomfield, NJ

#473638 Aug 28, 2013
Seraphima wrote:
<quoted text>Well it may be as you say and I may be wrong BuT I know what regina told me. So we both may be right! I believe that it is possible for both ways to happen.
Regina told you exactly what Regina said she told you, so pull your garbage on someone who doesn't have your number. Either prove it's me or stop with the false witness and detraction (both of which are sins). Praying for my "total destruction and annihilation" isn't going to help your cause. Maybe it's you who should learn to control her emotions. Now leave me out of your fantasies.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473639 Aug 28, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
a. Men wrote the Bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
There is no proof that this occurred.

It is correct men wrote the texts within the Bible, men chose the texts to be included within the Bible. The HS had nothing to do with it.

Unless you think the HS inspired an additional 300+ men, besides the many unknown authors of the NT texts. Do you?
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
b. You are right, I am not perfectly obedient to what Jesus taught.
Good. What teachings are you missing or not following?
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
c. Not all writings are inspired by God. Obvious enough unless you believe that God has multiple personalities.
You don't know this, so why state it?

Please state where "God" specifically lists which texts are inspired and which are not. Please post the date that corresponds to this specific statement.
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
d. Jesus is God the Son.
DOyou have any proof of this, or is this what you want to believe?

Jesus never called himself "God the Son", why do you?
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
The good news is that Truth can be known. This is the unchanging Creator of the Universe.
Two different statements, that neither have anything to do with each other.

True, in that the "truth can be known" - when we die.

False conclusion to state that you know "God" intimately enough to establish that he is the "unchanging Creator of the Universe".
- There is no proof that any god exists or existed. It is just a belief that was formulated by men for men to control others.

Why do you think those men were accurate, considering their limited access of "God" and that they are fallible?
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
Faith is a gift.
No - faith is learned.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#473640 Aug 28, 2013
hojo wrote:
<quoted text>
I wouldn't normally give "Pearls to swine" but I will make an exception in your case OX!..... My "born again experience has, is and will continue to be (each and everyYour judgmental and condemning "distorted personal opinion" regarding my personal faks" like you for over 35 years as a Protestant, and you like, everyone of your kind, CONTINUE to have "absolutely NO IDEA as to what you are talking about" which is no surprise to ANY OF US CATHOLICS who know the TRUTH of TRUE SALVATION in Jesus Christ--in and through HIS One TRUE Apostolic Catholic Church!!!
edited for space

I appreciate you proving my words to be 110% correct...you don't have a testimony..you are depending on crackers and wine for your salvation...

The Word of God speaks of you: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

For forty years,I was exactly where you are today...I pray, by the Grace of God, the Holy Spirit will convict you of your gross error/s, and you will see the truth...from Scripture...

IV. Salvation

Salvation involves the redemption of the whole man, and is offered freely to all who accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, who by His own blood obtained eternal redemption for the believer. In its broadest sense salvation includes regeneration, justification, sanctification, and glorification. There is no salvation apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ as Lord.

A. Regeneration, or the new birth, is a work of God's grace whereby believers become new creatures in Christ Jesus. It is a change of heart wrought by the Holy Spirit through conviction of sin, to which the sinner responds in repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Repentance and faith are inseparable experiences of grace.

Repentance is a genuine turning from sin toward God. Faith is the acceptance of Jesus Christ and commitment of the entire personality to Him as Lord and Saviour.

B. Justification is God's gracious and full acquittal upon principles of His righteousness of all sinners who repent and believe in Christ. Justification brings the believer unto a relationship of peace and favor with God.

C. Sanctification is the experience, beginning in regeneration, by which the believer is set apart to God's purposes, and is enabled to progress toward moral and spiritual maturity through the presence and power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him. Growth in grace should continue throughout the regenerate person's life.

D. Glorification is the culmination of salvation and is the final blessed and abiding state of the redeemed.

Genesis 3:15; Exodus 3:14-17; 6:2-8; Matthew 1:21; 4:17; 16:21-26; 27:22-28:6; Luke 1:68-69; 2:28-32; John 1:11-14,29; 3:3-21,36; 5:24; 10:9,28-29; 15:1-16; 17:17; Acts 2:21; 4:12; 15:11; 16:30-31; 17:30-31; 20:32; Romans 1:16-18; 2:4; 3:23-25; 4:3ff.; 5:8-10; 6:1-23; 8:1-18,29-39; 10:9-10,13; 13:11-14; 1 Corinthians 1:18,30; 6:19-20; 15:10; 2 Corinthians 5:17-20; Galatians 2:20; 3:13; 5:22-25; 6:15; Ephesians 1:7; 2:8-22; 4:11-16; Philippians 2:12-13; Colossians 1:9-22; 3:1ff.; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; 2 Timothy 1:12; Titus 2:11-14; Hebrews 2:1-3; 5:8-9; 9:24-28; 11:1-12:8,14; James 2:14-26; 1 Peter 1:2-23; 1 John 1:6-2:11; Revelation 3:20; 21:1-22:5.

The Lord's Supper is a symbolic act of obedience whereby members of the church, through partaking of the bread and the fruit of the vine, memorialize the death of the Redeemer and anticipate His second coming.

Matthew 3:13-17; 26:26-30; 28:19-20; Mark 1:9-11; 14:22-26; Luke 3:21-22; 22:19-20; John 3:23; Acts 2:41-42; 8:35-39; 16:30-33; 20:7; Romans 6:3-5; 1 Corinthians 10:16,21; 11:23-29; Colossians 2:12.

There is no salvation in this symbolic act of obedience.
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473641 Aug 28, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>Guess what,you are posting to one who was raised in the thick of Roman Catholicism on the East Coast.I have seen many a person kneel before statues and even kiss them.It is not just a movie shot,but reality.And I know that Catholics kneel out of reverence. By the way,I know it may shock you Catholics but many Prots kneel at times in their services as well.
Kneeling is the main posture for praying.I have been in Evangelical Churches where most of the members would kneel for quite some time and pray for others and so on.I have been in meetings that lasted 2-3 hours where we would first read from the Word,hear something short from the pastors,and than get on our knees to pray.
So kneeling is not only seen in RCChurches.
Well I am glad to hear that. I have been to several proty churches and never saw kneeling once. One time the preacher preached an entire sermon on how we should kneel before the Lord. I looked around and there were no kneelers available to kneel on. He kept shouting about the kneeling bit and no one was kneeling. I was confused so I asked him after the service what he meant by "kneeling". He looked confused so I asked "do you mean that we should actually kneel down?" And he looked shocked and sputtered "well no, we don't want to be making a scene, do we?"

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