Roman Catholic church only true churc...

Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

There are 665349 comments on the CBC News story from Jul 10, 2007, titled Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican. In it, CBC News reports that:

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at CBC News.

Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473304 Aug 27, 2013
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>"Those who worship God,must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth." How sad that you think that worshiping God must have physical images and shrines,and the like.When actually Clay,all of that was forbidden to the early Hebrews,and the Jews never strayed from such.But if it was not good for them,how is it that the Son of the Living God who has not changed,gave to us those things you take for granted,as you go to Mass? Did Jesus give to us statues?Did He expect us to worship a host encased in the Monstrance? You say yes,but the Jews of old,and especially the Father forbade such.
You can do what you want,but the truth is your church has mixed paganism with Christianity,and you expect us to forsake what we have learned in Scripture to follow your church, with all its mixture,OH but you are the original church? I don't think so,the first church were the Apostles,we have the Scriptures,and sorry the Scriptures do not tell us to adorn our churches or houses of worship with gaudy shrines,nor do the Scriptures tell us to put things on our bodies that venerate saints.The Scriptures lead us to GRACE,which is not personal atonement for our sins.
What? Have you never read the Old Testament? Remember how God told Noah to build an ark by which His chosen might be saved? Remember how God spoke through a burning bush to Moses? Remember how Moses, at God's instruction, took his rod and cast it down before pharaoh and it turned into a snake? Remember the serpent on the pole that God told Moses to make so that the people who looked upon it might be healed?(Num 21:8) Have you never read the book of Exodus where God instructs Moses how God wanted the Tabernacle to be made? Did you just gloss over the elaborate detail involved? And how about the altar? The holy vessels to be used on the altar? The Ark of the Covenant? Remember how God told Moses to put the images of the seraphim on top of it? What about the temple Solomon built for God? Have you read how it was made? The details? The carvings, the olive trees, palm trees, pomegranates, oxen, lions? The cherub statues? The ephod and the theraphim and priestly garments?
Didn't God say to use water for baptism? Didn't Jesus use spit and mud as a paste to cure blindness? Indeed didn't Jesus become Incarnate Himself?
You really think God doesn't use matter to convey His graces and His messages?

All these things are not for God's benefit, but for ours.
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

#473305 Aug 27, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
This is what you don't get:
Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism.
God the Father was preparing His people for Jesus, God the Son. Once Jesus came into the world, He became the ultimate sacrifice which really did take away the sins of the world. Jesus is the Lamb of God who has fulfilled the requirements of the OT law.
God has been revealing Himself gradually. It hasn't been a sudden 180 and let's do something entirely foreign now.
I guess most of the Jews didn't get it either.
Marcus Grodi on The Journey Home had a guest last night who was a nominal Catholic as a child and grew up in a predominately Jewish town. She spent much of her teen years and early adulthood going to synagogue with Jewish family and friends. She reverted to the Church when it all came together in her mind how Catholicism is so completly Jewish in it's foundation and that it is simply the fulfillment of Judaism. Just thought I'd throw that out there...
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

#473306 Aug 27, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
I suggest you read excerpts of the Orthodox Council of Jerusalem, in 1672 AD.
The Orthodox Confession of 1640 reads --

"Christ is now in heaven only and not on earth after that manner of the flesh wherein He bore it and lived in it when He was on earth; but after the sacramental manner, whereby He is present in the Holy Eucharist, the same Son of God, God and Man, is also on earth by way of TRANSUBSTANTIATION [kata metousiosis]. For the SUBSTANCE of the bread is changed into the SUBSTANCE of His holy body, and the SUBSTANCE of the wine into the SUBSTANCE of His precious blood.

"Where it is fitting to WORSHIP and ADORE the Holy Eucharist even as our Savior Jesus Himself.

"The priest must know that at the moment when he consecrates the gifts the SUBSTANCE itself of the bread and the SUBSTANCE of the wine are changed into the SUBSTANCE of the real body and blood of Christ through the operation of the Holy Ghost, whom the priest invokes at that time, consecrating this mystery by praying and saying,

'Send down Thy Holy Ghost on us and on these gifts set before Thee, and make this bread the precious body of Thy Christ and that which is in this cup the precious blood of Thy Christ, changing them by Thy Holy Ghost.'

"For immediately after these words the TRANSUBSTANTIATION [metousiosis] takes place, and that bread is changed into the real body of Christ, and the wine into His real blood. ONLY THE SPECIES WHICH ARE SEEN REMAIN, and this by the ordinance of God, first, that we may not see the body of Christ, but may believe that it is there....

"The honor which it is fitting to give to these awful mysteries is of such a kind as that which is given to Christ Himself....This mystery is also OFFERED AS A SACRIFICE on behalf of all orthodox Christians, both the living AND THOSE WHO SLEEP in hope of a resurrection to eternal life; and the SACRIFICE shall never fail until the last Judgment.

"The fruits of this mystery are these: first, the commemoration of the sinless passion and death of Christ....secondly....this mystery is a PROPITIATION AND ATONEMENT WITH GOD FOR OUR SINS BOTH OF THE LIVING AND OF THE DEAD....thirdly....that each Christian who shall frequent this SACRIFICE and partake of this mystery may be delivered by means of it from the temptation and danger of the devil." (Stone, page 177f)

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num31.htm
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

#473307 Aug 27, 2013
Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
I suggest you read excerpts of the Orthodox Council of Jerusalem, in 1672 AD.
DOSITHEUS AND COUNCIL OF JERUSALEM (1672)

Thirty years later, under Dositheus, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, another council was held at Bethlehem where the Confession of Cyril Lucar was again considered. This Council reads on the Eucharist --

"In the celebration of this we believe that our Lord Jesus Christ is present, not figuratively, or in an image, or by superabundant grace, as in the other mysteries, nor by a simple presence, as some of the Fathers have said concerning Baptism, nor by conjunction, as that the Deity of the Word is personally united to the bread of the Eucharist which is set forth, as the LUTHERANS MOST IGNORANTLY AND MISERABLY THINK; but really and actually, so that after the consecration of the bread and the wine the bread is changed, TRANSUBSTANTIATED, transmade, and reordered, into the real body of the Lord itself, which was born in Bethlehem of the Ever-Virgin, was baptized in Jordan, suffered, was buried, rose, ascended, sitteth at the right hand of God the Father, and will come on the clouds of heaven; and the wine is transmade and TRANSUBSTANTIATED into the real blood of the Lord itself, which was poured forth for the life of the world when He hung on the cross.

"Further, we believe that after the consecration of the bread and the wine the SUBSTANCE of the bread and the wine NO LONGER REMAINS, but there is the body itself and the blood of the Lord in the species and form of the bread and the wine, that is to say, under the ACCIDENTS of the bread. Further, that the all-pure body itself and blood of the Lord are distributed and enter the mouth and stomach of the communicants, both pious and impious, only they convey to the pious and worthy remission of sins and eternal life, but they involve to the impious and unworthy condemnation and eternal punishment........."

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num31.htm
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473308 Aug 27, 2013
confrinting with the word wrote:
THE WAY OF THE CROSS LEADS HOME...
Try as you will...You Roman Catholics...cannot replace
Jesus Christ with any of your Lil gods....
Your stage props... nor your supporting actors...
Those that you revere and worship...are only figments
of your carnally mind...
Rituals.. Icons.. idols... and other excess baggage...
BAGGAGE THAT have no place in worship of God....
THEY ONLY ENHANCE AND FEED THE APPETITES OF THE FLESH..
WHEN GOD APPROACHED MOSES at the burn bush...
GOD would not allow ... so much as MOSES' shoes..to
be ...between HIM an Moses...
You Roman Catholics have a whole mountain of
paraphernalia between you and God...
Every thing in your religion is PROXY...
WHEN YOU SHOULD BE
Heb_12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross,
--> despising<-- the ==>shame,<==
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
---
--> despising<--defined in Greek
G2706
&#954;&#945;&#964; &#945;&#966;&#961; &#959;&#957;&#949; &#769;&#969;
kataphroneo&#772;
kat-af-ron-eh'-o
From G2596 and G5426; to think against, that is, disesteem:- despise.
THE ==>shame,<==
G152
&#945;&#953;&#787; &#963;&#967;&#965; &#769;&#957;&#951;
aischune&#772;
ahee-skhoo'-nay
From G153; shame or disgrace (abstractly or concretely):- dishonesty, shame.
___
You have placed a whole mountain of needless....
corruptible ....people
places and
things,..
.between you and GOD.
some where beneath your pomp pride and rituals you have
buried Jesus..
On this forum you don't even give HIM HONORABLE MENTION
YOU DISPLAY HIM IN A POSITION OF ==>SHAME<==...
THAT HE -->DESPISED<-- ON WHAT YOU CALL A CRUCIFIX...
YOU NEVER DISPLAY JESUS...IN VICTORY ..over.. death
hell... and ...the grave.
you present YOUR POPE... MARY..SAINTS...RITUALS..YOUR (so called) CHURCH...TO THE WORLD...
TELL ME ...WHERE DOES JESUS EVER COME INTO YOUR CONVERSATION...
EONS AGO YOU EVIDENTLY REPLACED HIM WITH ALL THE ABOVE AND MORE...
There is only one that was nailed to the Cross...
and He said
Joh_15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for
-->without me ye can do nothing. <---
AND WITH OUT HIM YOU ARE NOTHING..
How ironic for you to claim these things.

Jesus is the focal point and summit of the Mass in Catholic worship.

Bruther Bob's sermon is the focal point of your worship.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473309 Aug 27, 2013
hojo wrote:
<quoted text>
No problem for me ---because you're just "wasting your breath"!
NO ONE--NOT ONE of us Catholic on this forum, believes what you say or preach anyway! I have "heard all" of this bible only rhetorical mis-interpretations of the bible for over 35 years. The TRUTH has, is and will always remain and be grounded in Jesus Christ and His One (and only one) TRUE Apostolic Catholic Church------not in 42,000+ Reformation "personal opinions" of which you are a part of New Age. It is called "relative truth" (what each person decides is true) bible only (mis)interpretations....It it works for you "great"!
IT IS ALL YOURS!!!! I/we as Catholic will remain with Jesus Christ and His One TRUE Catholic Church--the Bride of Christ!!!!End of discussion!!!!
Listen Baptist hojo, you don't hold any truth, you never did. You only hold that which men who limit "God" gave you.

Shoot - you are so wrapped in such a false dogma and doctrine, you can't even admit through honesty that "God" never stated which texts are inspired and which are not.

But instead, you flail your arms around wildly expressing others of nonsense and hypocritical bullshite.

Please stop posting - it only shows how ignorant you really are to your Baptist religion.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473310 Aug 27, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
What? Have you never read the Old Testament? Remember how God told Noah to build an ark by which His chosen might be saved? Remember how God spoke through a burning bush to Moses? Remember how Moses, at God's instruction, took his rod and cast it down before pharaoh and it turned into a snake? Remember the serpent on the pole that God told Moses to make so that the people who looked upon it might be healed?(Num 21:8) Have you never read the book of Exodus where God instructs Moses how God wanted the Tabernacle to be made? Did you just gloss over the elaborate detail involved? And how about the altar? The holy vessels to be used on the altar? The Ark of the Covenant? Remember how God told Moses to put the images of the seraphim on top of it? What about the temple Solomon built for God? Have you read how it was made? The details? The carvings, the olive trees, palm trees, pomegranates, oxen, lions? The cherub statues? The ephod and the theraphim and priestly garments?
Didn't God say to use water for baptism? Didn't Jesus use spit and mud as a paste to cure blindness? Indeed didn't Jesus become Incarnate Himself?
You really think God doesn't use matter to convey His graces and His messages?
All these things are not for God's benefit, but for ours.
Wow. You will promote supposed "talkign with God" in the OT, but nothing from the NT, except a vision here or there.

Do you even understand the NT?

Why would you promote primarily Jewish/Islam texts, when the NT supposedly replaced the "old Covenant"?

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473311 Aug 27, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
What? Have you never read the Old Testament? Remember how God told Noah to build an ark by which His chosen might be saved? Remember how God spoke through a burning bush to Moses? Remember how Moses, at God's instruction, took his rod and cast it down before pharaoh and it turned into a snake? Remember the serpent on the pole that God told Moses to make so that the people who looked upon it might be healed?(Num 21:8) Have you never read the book of Exodus where God instructs Moses how God wanted the Tabernacle to be made? Did you just gloss over the elaborate detail involved? And how about the altar? The holy vessels to be used on the altar? The Ark of the Covenant? Remember how God told Moses to put the images of the seraphim on top of it? What about the temple Solomon built for God? Have you read how it was made? The details? The carvings, the olive trees, palm trees, pomegranates, oxen, lions? The cherub statues? The ephod and the theraphim and priestly garments?
Didn't God say to use water for baptism? Didn't Jesus use spit and mud as a paste to cure blindness? Indeed didn't Jesus become Incarnate Himself?
You really think God doesn't use matter to convey His graces and His messages?
All these things are not for God's benefit, but for ours.
Another thought on this post is, you sure have a lot of unanswered questions for others. What are youur answers to these same questions?

If you claim, that these are for our benefit [Self], why even be a partcipant in religion if your spirituality is restricted?

You don't limit "God", do you, like Christianity has done?

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473312 Aug 27, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
In the Old Testament times, God had chosen a group of people to reveal Himself to primarily. And through them, others could come to know God. As well as in the New Testament times, God has chosen a group of people to reveal Himself to primarily, and that is His Church. And through the Church, others might come to the knowledge of His revelation to mankind.
"God" hasn't sto[pp-ed choosing people to promote what "He" wants to teach. Just look at the many people speaking out ont he behalf of "God" to those like you who limit "His" goodness.

You will need to first stop limiting "God" if you really want to understand "God".

Catholicism, Protestantism, or any other religion won't have the answers.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#473314 Aug 27, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
Marcus Grodi on The Journey Home had a guest last night who was a nominal Catholic as a child and grew up in a predominately Jewish town. She spent much of her teen years and early adulthood going to synagogue with Jewish family and friends. She reverted to the Church when it all came together in her mind how Catholicism is so completly Jewish in it's foundation and that it is simply the fulfillment of Judaism. Just thought I'd throw that out there...
How is it a fulfillment, when Jews only think of Jesus as a prophet and not any Messiah?
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473315 Aug 27, 2013
June VanDerMark wrote:
<quoted text>
I can see through you and your the stench of your religion ... and that is what bugs you.

Now you are inventing odors and getting offended by your own imaginary sniffing?
Ok.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#473316 Aug 27, 2013
hojo wrote:
<quoted text>
For your information, Confrinting, the Catholic Church, has,is and will ALWAYS be "grounded, solidified, nourished and sustained in JESUS CHRIST as Lord and Savior,(FIRST and foremost)--- with the Eucharist (CHRISTS TRUE BODY and BLOOD),--and----in the TRUTH of Jesus' own spoken WORDS in the TRUTH of the Gospel which is proclaimed (each and every day) at Daily Mass,---and----IN THE TRUE WORD which is ministered IN and THROUGH Our Lords One (and only one) TRUE Apostolic Catholic Church.(EVERY SINCLE DAY) However-- you "wouldn't know ANYTHING about ANYTHING that is being proclaimed, taught and preached in the Catholic Church because you are (to busy) spreading your (so-called) Christian preaching that is "laced with NOTHING but (your own vindictive condemnation and judgement of other Christians (especially Catholics. You ministry consists of NOTHING but listing a bunch of bible verse that are (filled with distorted and deceitful "opinionated anti-catholic hate-filled lies" around this forum, that have "corrupted" your heart, mind and soul!! You don't for God------"never have" and "never will" until you come to TRUE SALVATION in Jesus Christ!!!
There is noting more pleasing to a born again Christian than to hear the testimony of a other born again Christian...How bout it....want to share yours????
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

#473317 Aug 27, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
How is it a fulfillment, when Jews only think of Jesus as a prophet and not any Messiah?
All of the first Christians were Jewish. They were the ones who said so.
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473318 Aug 27, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
Marcus Grodi on The Journey Home had a guest last night who was a nominal Catholic as a child and grew up in a predominately Jewish town. She spent much of her teen years and early adulthood going to synagogue with Jewish family and friends. She reverted to the Church when it all came together in her mind how Catholicism is so completly Jewish in it's foundation and that it is simply the fulfillment of Judaism. Just thought I'd throw that out there...
Yes, it's not like God realized "well, hell, this isn't working...let me try something completely different." What is interesting is that while there is the OT which mentions many Jewish celebrations, there is not a lot of detail about those celebrations. It's almost like such details went without saying since,*gasp*, people had been celebrating their festivals for years before the books of the OT were written/compiled. Sort of like how the early Christians celebrated Mass for years before the books of the NT were written!
So anyway, learning more about Judaism would certainly enhance understanding and appreciation of Christianity.( That is on my to-do list.)

Since: Sep 09

Terrace, Canada

#473319 Aug 27, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
What? Have you never read the Old Testament? Remember how God told Noah to build an ark by which His chosen might be saved? Remember how God spoke through a burning bush to Moses? Remember how Moses, at God's instruction, took his rod and cast it down before pharaoh and it turned into a snake? Remember the serpent on the pole that God told Moses to make so that the people who looked upon it might be healed?(Num 21:8) Have you never read the book of Exodus where God instructs Moses how God wanted the Tabernacle to be made? Did you just gloss over the elaborate detail involved? And how about the altar? The holy vessels to be used on the altar? The Ark of the Covenant? Remember how God told Moses to put the images of the seraphim on top of it? What about the temple Solomon built for God? Have you read how it was made? The details? The carvings, the olive trees, palm trees, pomegranates, oxen, lions? The cherub statues? The ephod and the theraphim and priestly garments?
Didn't God say to use water for baptism? Didn't Jesus use spit and mud as a paste to cure blindness? Indeed didn't Jesus become Incarnate Himself?
You really think God doesn't use matter to convey His graces and His messages?
All these things are not for God's benefit, but for ours.
You forgot the part in the old testament of how Jehovah instructed the Jews that they were his chosen few.

:)
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473320 Aug 27, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow. You will promote supposed "talkign with God" in the OT, but nothing from the NT, except a vision here or there.
Do you even understand the NT?
Why would you promote primarily Jewish/Islam texts, when the NT supposedly replaced the "old Covenant"?
The point was that God DOES use physical matter to convey His graces and His revelation to mankind.
I mentioned several "for instances" from the OT and a couple from the NT. Do you want me to type out more examples from the NT? There are several, if they aren't obvious, I'd be happy to point them out.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#473321 Aug 27, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
The Orthodox Confession of 1640 reads --
"Christ is now in heaven only and not on earth after that manner of the flesh wherein He bore it and lived in it when He was on earth; but after the sacramental manner, whereby He is present in the Holy Eucharist, the same Son of God, God and Man, is also on earth by way of TRANSUBSTANTIATION [kata metousiosis]. For the SUBSTANCE of the bread is changed into the SUBSTANCE of His holy body, and the SUBSTANCE of the wine into the SUBSTANCE of His precious blood.
"Where it is fitting to WORSHIP and ADORE the Holy Eucharist even as our Savior Jesus Himself.
"The priest must know that at the moment when he consecrates the gifts the SUBSTANCE itself of the bread and the SUBSTANCE of the wine are changed into the SUBSTANCE of the real body and blood of Christ through the operation of the Holy Ghost, whom the priest invokes at that time, consecrating this mystery by praying and saying,
'Send down Thy Holy Ghost on us and on these gifts set before Thee, and make this bread the precious body of Thy Christ and that which is in this cup the precious blood of Thy Christ, changing them by Thy Holy Ghost.'
"For immediately after these words the TRANSUBSTANTIATION [metousiosis] takes place, and that bread is changed into the real body of Christ, and the wine into His real blood. ONLY THE SPECIES WHICH ARE SEEN REMAIN, and this by the ordinance of God, first, that we may not see the body of Christ, but may believe that it is there....
"The honor which it is fitting to give to these awful mysteries is of such a kind as that which is given to Christ Himself....This mystery is also OFFERED AS A SACRIFICE on behalf of all orthodox Christians, both the living AND THOSE WHO SLEEP in hope of a resurrection to eternal life; and the SACRIFICE shall never fail until the last Judgment.
"The fruits of this mystery are these: first, the commemoration of the sinless passion and death of Christ....secondly....this mystery is a PROPITIATION AND ATONEMENT WITH GOD FOR OUR SINS BOTH OF THE LIVING AND OF THE DEAD....thirdly....that each Christian who shall frequent this SACRIFICE and partake of this mystery may be delivered by means of it from the temptation and danger of the devil." (Stone, page 177f)
http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num31.htm
Just because they believe this malarkey does not make it true...there is no Scripture that supports this tripe...

Since: Sep 09

Terrace, Canada

#473322 Aug 27, 2013
Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, it's not like God realized "well, hell, this isn't working...let me try something completely different." What is interesting is that while there is the OT which mentions many Jewish celebrations, there is not a lot of detail about those celebrations. It's almost like such details went without saying since,*gasp*, people had been celebrating their festivals for years before the books of the OT were written/compiled. Sort of like how the early Christians celebrated Mass for years before the books of the NT were written!
So anyway, learning more about Judaism would certainly enhance understanding and appreciation of Christianity.( That is on my to-do list.)
According to the Jews that were certain THEY were "god's chosen few, the old testament should have been the final WORD on truth ... but the ex-Jew Catholics had another "IDEA!"

Then the Muslims had yet more ideas and the Protestants continued off on their own paths of corrupting words for their own self-ingratiating USES.

Religion is one HUGE mess of corruption.

:)
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

#473323 Aug 27, 2013
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
Another thought on this post is, you sure have a lot of unanswered questions for others. What are youur answers to these same questions?
If you claim, that these are for our benefit [Self], why even be a partcipant in religion if your spirituality is restricted?
You don't limit "God", do you, like Christianity has done?
My answer is that, obviously, I have read the OT and know about all those examples which I typed up showing how God uses matter to communicate with His people.
Your last 2 questions make no sense to me.
"Why be a participant in religion if your spirituality is restricted?"
That makes as much sense to me as:
"Why rent a unicorn when water runs uphill?"

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#473324 Aug 27, 2013
Its wine stupid!!!!!!!!

Drinking and Praying: Proposal Could Tip Irish Priests Over Legal Limit

Both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland want to lower the legal blood alcohol level for drivers. Priests are afraid it might affect their ability to motor around after Mass.

Bad Blood: Priests in Ireland are concerned that lowering the legal drinking level for drivers might leave them stranded after Mass.

The job description for a Catholic priest doesn't include a lot of perks -- perhaps one reason that their numbers are shrinking rapidly across the Western world. In Ireland, though, the gig might be further complicated by a new proposal to lower the legal blood alcohol limit for drivers. Priests there are speaking out against the proposal because it could render them legally drunk after performing Mass.

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