Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

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Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

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#453141
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
<snip>

Luther maintained that salvation was BY FAITH ALONE (sola fide) without reference to good works, alms, penance, or the Church's sacraments. Luther maintained that the sacraments were a "means of grace," meaning that while grace was imparted through the Sacraments, the credit for the action belonged to God and not to the individual.
He had also challenged the authority of the Church by maintaining that all doctrines and dogmata of the Church not found in Scripture should be discarded (sola scriptura)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diet_of_Worms
__________
I don't believe Luther "IMPLEMENTED" sola Scriptura, in the sense that he decided "Hey, this is a good rule to follow." He did, however, at the Diet of Worms (1521) and at the risk of his life, refuse to recant his "heresy" by his famous statement [paraphrased] "Unless I can be convinced by Scripture and by plain reason, HERE I STAND. I can do no other."
Faith Alone is an invention of Luther's. He inserted that word "alone" into Scripture. And yes, he absolutely DID invent sola scriptura as well, believing "hey, this is a good rule to follow" because that allowed him to justify his egregious actions.

You want to know what else he said?

"Moses is an executioner, a cruel lictor, a torturer a torturer who tears our flesh out with pincers and makes us suffer martyrdom ... Whoever, in the name of Christ, terrifies and troubles consciences, is not the messenger of Christ, but of the devil ... Let us therefore send Moses packing and for ever." [4]

"...with regard to God, and in all that bears on salvation or damnation,(man) has no 'free-will', but is a captive, prisoner and bond slave, either to the will of God, or to the will of Satan."[7]

“Reason is the devils handmaid and does nothing but blaspheme and dishonor all that God says or does.”[14]

No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day."[18]

"Good works are bad and are sin like the rest." -[23]

“To kill a peasant is not murder; it is helping to extinguish the conflagration. Let there be no half measures! Crush them! Cut their throats! Transfix them. Leave no stone unturned! To kill a peasant is to destroy a mad dog!”–“If they say that I am very hard and merciless, mercy be damned. Let whoever can stab, strangle, and kill them like mad dogs”[29]

“ If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the bridge of the Elbe, hang a stone round his neck and push him over with the words I baptize thee in the name of Abraham”[36]

“If the husband is unwilling, there is another who is; if the wife is unwilling, then let the maid come.”[39]

“To lie in a case of necessity or for convenience or in excuse – such lying would not be against God; He was ready to take such lies on Himself”[48]

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/apologeti...

Did you know that Luther was obsessed with Satan and would have regular conversations and encounters with him?
Did you know that Luther wanted to put Satan up his butt?

And Luther is the spiritual father of all protestantism.
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

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#453142
Jun 17, 2013
 
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
Very few of your protestant brethren who call themselves Christian confess, believe and teach the creed.
The denomination called "Church of Christ" explicitely refuses to hold to any creed whatsoever.
They act like it is a terrible thing to do. To me it just looks like the really don't know what they believe.
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

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#453143
Jun 17, 2013
 
Oxbow wrote:
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
Again, the Church never taught selling indulgences or torture of the Jews. Those things were done by bad guys contrary to Church teachings.
Bl. John Paul II apologized for those bad guys.
--------
Historical facts per a participant and an eye witness...Luther.....
31. The man who actually buys indulgences is as rare as he who is really penitent; indeed, he is exceedingly rare.
35. They who teach that contrition is not necessary on the part of those who intend to buy souls out of purgatory or to buy confessional privileges preach unchristian doctrine.
42. Christians are to be taught that the pope does not intend that the buying of indulgences should in any way be compared with works of mercy.
43. Christians are to be taught that he who gives to the poor or lends to the needy does a better deed than he who buys indulgences.
45. Christians are to be taught that he who sees a needy man and passes him by, yet gives his money for indulgences, does not buy papal indulgences but God's wrath.
46. Christians are to be taught that, unless they have more than they need, they must reserve enough for their family needs and by no means squander it on indulgences.
47. Christians are to be taught that they buying of indulgences is a matter of free choice, not commanded.
48 Christians are to be taught that the pope, in granting indulgences, needs and thus desires their devout prayer more than their money.
51. Christians are to be taught that the pope would and should wish to give of his own money, even though he had to sell the basilica of St. Peter, to many of those from whom certain hawkers of indulgences cajole money.
57. That indulgences are not temporal treasures is certainly clear, for many indulgence sellers do not distribute them freely but only gather them.
66. The treasures of indulgences are nets with which one now fishes for the wealth of men.
69. Bishops and curates are bound to admit the commissaries of papal indulgences with all reverence.
82. Such as: "Why does not the pope empty purgatory for the sake of holy love and the dire need of the souls that are there if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a church? The former reason would be most just; the latter is most trivial.
" Martin Luther was constipated, both with spirituality and with poop.( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3944549.stm ). He suffered terrible, painful bouts and spent hours on his stone throne working it out."
http://onefootwalking.wordpress.com/2010/03/1...

"Luther's lavatory thrills experts


Martin Luther was candid about his constipation
Archaeologists in Germany say they may have found a lavatory where Martin Luther launched the Reformation of the Christian church in the 16th Century.
The stone room is in a newly-unearthed annex to Luther's house in Wittenberg.

Luther is quoted as saying he was "in cloaca", or in the sewer, when he was inspired to argue that salvation is granted because of faith, not deeds. "

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3944549.stm

Since: Sep 09

Prince George, Canada

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#453144
Jun 17, 2013
 
Roberta G wrote:
June VanDerMark wrote:
<quoted text>
You can keep lying if it so pleases you ... but if there is a god that serves only Jews ... you are in over your head with lies upon lies.
I suggest you keep THAT in mind.
You can manipulate other people, but you can't manipulate a god ... if that god just HAPPENS to exist.
<quoted text>
Of course, you have NOT told June any lies respective to Luther.
Luther posted his 95 THESES in 1517 in Wittenberg, Germany, and the Pope of the day excommunicated him in 1520. Meanwhile, his teachings had spread like wildfire throughout Germany.
In 1523, a group of 12 nuns, inspired by Luther's teachings, escaped their cloister ("escaped" because they would never have been PERMITTED to leave) with the help of a respected merchant and leading citizen, one Leonard Kopp, and Luther himself.
Once they had escaped, what was to be done with them? Three of them returned to their own homes, while the remaining nine waited for arranged marriages. Naturally, since Luther was single, his friends repeatedly suggested that he marry one of the ex-nuns himself. He rejected the idea, "not because he was a sexless stone, nor because he was hostile to marriage, but because he expected daily the death of a heretic."--"HERE I STAND: A LIFE OF MARTIN LUTHER, Roland H. Bainton
By 1525, all the nuns had been married except one, a 26 year old woman named Katherina von Bora. In the 16th century, 26 was considered a bit long in the tooth for a first marriage :) so her position was delicate. Although two or three matches had been attempted for Katherina, all had fallen through for one reason or another. The latest suggestion was one Dr. Glatz, whom she couldn't stand :) Finally, she asked the help of a visitor to Wittenberg, a Dr. Magdeberg, who conveyed a message to Luther. She would accept either Magdeberg himself or Luther.
Luther had never had any intention of marrying. His father, however, had other ideas. He was a very successful merchant who had been deeply displeased when his son Luther chose the Church as his career instead of becoming a merchant like his father. When Luther told him about the idea of his marrying Katherina, he meant it as a joke, but his father took it seriously :) He wanted to pass on the family name. And Luther began to see the idea in a different light. He fully expected to be burned at the stake within a year, so starting a family THEN could only be seen as defiance at anything that might happen to him. Also, he would rescue Katherina from her dilemma.
"He summed up by giving three reasons for his marriage: to please his father, to spite the Pope and the Devil, and to seal his witness before martyrdom." --"HERE I STAND: A LIFE OF MARTIN LUTHER, Roland H. Bainton
In short, Luther's reasons for marrying were practical in nature, not for love. But he and Katie (whom he called "my rib"!) fell genuinely and deeply in love after they were married. Katherina was an excellent housekeeper, which as Luther's household was continually expanding through the years (many students, etc. lived with the Luthers), having a well-run domestic life was in itself a considerable contribution to Luther's work.
The Luthers had six children together. And by the way, Katherina was no doormat. She fully supported her husband's work, but she was never afraid to speak her mind to him.
I absolutely LOVE their story! Always have :)
Luther wanted to get married ... so he ordered the god of the Jews in the sky to ordain Luther's command.

Religion was always FUN for the theologians that changed the dogmas to suit their own pleasures.

Since: Sep 09

Prince George, Canada

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#453145
Jun 17, 2013
 
Religion A Delusion wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you give religion too much credit. A theory is a rational type of abstract or generalizing thinking, usually put forth for the purpose of further measuring and testing.
Religion is based on myth, with no rational, real world evidence required. Few believers seek to test or measure a religious myth.
If evidence appears to refute a theory, then that theory is reworked or dismissed as refuted.
No amount of real-world, real-life evidence will cause true believers to dismiss their chosen myth.
Those in religion idolize only their own myths.

That is what made it so easy for theologians who hated each other to divide and conquer the minds of gullible believers.
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

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#453146
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
Some of the mainline protestant denominations still recite a creed. Very few, if any, non-denominational communities do. I haven't been to a baptist service in a long time, so if they started doing it, I'm in error.
Bl. John Paul did call for unity, so did Benedict and now Francis. I doubt many fundamentalist evangelicals will heed the call unfortunately.
When I was a baptist, they never recited a creed at their services. They in fact officially shy away from "creedalism".
Their website says:

"In some groups, statements of belief have the same authority as Scripture. We call this creedalism. Baptists also make statements of belief, but all of them are revisable in light of Scripture. "

In other words, their statements of belief can be revised according to a different interpretation of Scripture.
Religion A Delusion

Orlando, FL

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#453147
Jun 17, 2013
 
Religion A Delusion wrote:
Catholic Church double-speak....
Re: Indulgences
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indulgence (see Abuses):
"Professional "pardoners" - who were sent to collect alms for a specific project - practiced the unrestricted sale of indulgences. Many of these quaestores exceeded Church teachings, whether in avarice or ignorant zeal, and promised impossible rewards like salvation from eternal damnation in return for money."
The Vatican was not so shocked at the abuses that they refused the money raised.
Is this like the child abuse scandal. It just grew and grew and the CC was late addressing it from a moral perspective.

"With the permission of the Church, indulgences also became a way for Catholic rulers to fund expensive projects... "

"Indulgences grew to extraordinary magnitude, in terms of longevity and breadth of forgiveness."

Like most Popes have explained:

"We didn't know."

"Yes, it's against Catholic teaching,"

"OK, and we did make a lot of money with it over many centuries."

"It was so hard to say no. In fact, we built the Vatican with some of the dough. We were not guided by morals, but by self-interest. So sorry."

Sound familiar?

That shows us that sometimes even the Catholic Church realizes that god is imaginary.
Religion A Delusion

Orlando, FL

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#453148
Jun 17, 2013
 
Correction:

Not Catholic Church doublespeak, religious doublespeak.
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

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#453149
Jun 17, 2013
 
Selene100 wrote:
<quoted text>
Neither Moses nor Abraham ever heard of the word "Christian" as well.
Are you saying that Mary is NOT Jesus' mother? Are you saying that Christ broke the commandment that says "honor thy mother and thy father?"
He has no idea what he's saying.
Dan

Wilmington, DE

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#453150
Jun 17, 2013
 

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June VanDerMark wrote:
<quoted text>
Those in religion idolize only their own myths.
That is what made it so easy for theologians who hated each other to divide and conquer the minds of gullible believers.
You seem very disposed to "idolizing your own myth" about the Reformation being predicated upon Martin Luther's desire to be married.

No evidence for that. but I know that isn't typically a concern of yours. It DOES make one wary of you throwing around accusations of other people relying on their own myths, however.

Dan

Wilmington, DE

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#453151
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Religion A Delusion wrote:
<quoted text>
Is this like the child abuse scandal. It just grew and grew and the CC was late addressing it from a moral perspective.
"With the permission of the Church, indulgences also became a way for Catholic rulers to fund expensive projects... "
"Indulgences grew to extraordinary magnitude, in terms of longevity and breadth of forgiveness."
Like most Popes have explained:
"We didn't know."
"Yes, it's against Catholic teaching,"
"OK, and we did make a lot of money with it over many centuries."
"It was so hard to say no. In fact, we built the Vatican with some of the dough. We were not guided by morals, but by self-interest. So sorry."
Sound familiar?
That shows us that sometimes even the Catholic Church realizes that god is imaginary.
"VanDerMarkian" logic, RAD.

"Bad acts were committed in the name of God, so, God is imaginary".

Doesn't it really mean that people commit bad acts?
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

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#453152
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
When I was a baptist, they never recited a creed at their services. They in fact officially shy away from "creedalism".
Their website says:
"In some groups, statements of belief have the same authority as Scripture. We call this creedalism. Baptists also make statements of belief, but all of them are revisable in light of Scripture. "
In other words, their statements of belief can be revised according to a different interpretation of Scripture.
I suppose I could walk into any non-denominational gathering, say I'm a "bible believer" and I'd be accepted as a Christian. Pretty scary stuff.

Since: Feb 12

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#453153
Jun 17, 2013
 

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hojo wrote:
<quoted text>
Uta Ranke Heinemann is one persons "opinion" just like thousands of others! My brother-in-law has been a priest for 18 years as a rector in the seminary for new vocations to the priesthood. The seminary has grown from 36 when he was appointed to over 200 today. These young men are all dedicated to the teachings of the Catholic Church, the bible, the Magisterium and the Vatican with Pope Francis...... Emancipated nuns and priests are in the minority and are a "dying breed" of older liberals that are still desperately hanging on to their "outdated" rebellious (do it my way) myths.....They chose to remain "on the outside" (just like you June) continously looking in at the TRUTH of Jesus Christ and His One True Apostolic Catholic Church.
Your church is NOT THE ONE TRUE APOSTOLIC CHURCH THAT CHRIST FOUNDED.Brag all you want but HISTORY of YOUR church starting in 1054 tells the story.YOU think that CHRIST would approve of such a church and its NASTY PAST.It is from YOUR church that the protestants came from which you now debate.IF your church was the church of Christ and kept its nose cleaned they may never have been a Reformation.
Anthony MN

Minneapolis, MN

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#453154
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Religion A Delusion wrote:
<quoted text>
Is this like the child abuse scandal. It just grew and grew and the CC was late addressing it from a moral perspective.
"With the permission of the Church, indulgences also became a way for Catholic rulers to fund expensive projects... "
"Indulgences grew to extraordinary magnitude, in terms of longevity and breadth of forgiveness."
Like most Popes have explained:
"We didn't know."
"Yes, it's against Catholic teaching,"
"OK, and we did make a lot of money with it over many centuries."
"It was so hard to say no. In fact, we built the Vatican with some of the dough. We were not guided by morals, but by self-interest. So sorry."
Sound familiar?
That shows us that sometimes even the Catholic Church realizes that god is imaginary.
How were they supposed to build the Vatican without cash?
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#453155
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Religion A Delusion wrote:
<quoted text>
I think you give religion too much credit. A theory is a rational type of abstract or generalizing thinking, usually put forth for the purpose of further measuring and testing.
Religion is based on myth, with no rational, real world evidence required. Few believers seek to test or measure a religious myth.
If evidence appears to refute a theory, then that theory is reworked or dismissed as refuted.
No amount of real-world, real-life evidence will cause true believers to dismiss their chosen myth.
Evidence doesn't matter. MOST people of religion are so because by "CHANCE" they were born into their faith to become what their parents were and to become what their parents want them to become..........just like them!

I am sure if all the catholics on this forum were by CHANCE born into loving Muslim families ALLAH would be who they worship, Jesus would be just a good-deed-doer from the past.

Organized religion is the great divider of our world. If there is a God out there I doubt his intentions would be lets create hatred towards others..........with the attitude "I am right and you are wrong"



Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

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#453156
Jun 17, 2013
 
Dan wrote:
<quoted text>
Ox's pasted post:
"Scripture alone (from the Reformation slogan Sola Scriptura) is the teaching that Scripture is the Church's only infallible and sufficient rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines. While the Bible does not contain all knowledge, it does contain that which is necessary for salvation. Indeed, if something is not found in Scripture, it is not binding upon the believer. This view does not deny that the Church has the authority to teach God's Word. Furthermore, while tradition is valuable, it but must be tested by the higher authority of the Scriptures. "
This paragraph is replete with contradiction.
It admits that the Bible does not contain all knowledge, declares despite this that the Bible contains that which is necessary for Salvation, and then concludes that any teaching not expressed in scripture is subordinate to Scripture.
The conclusion presented isn't IN scripture-it's a statement to ratify the belief, but it isn't scriptural that there's a stratification, by medium, of the authoritative teaching of God's Word.
Yes, and since "the Church" here refers to no specific Church whatsoever, "the Church" should really be replaced with "the individual".
Michael

Hamilton, Canada

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#453157
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
How were they supposed to build the Vatican without cash?
The vatican has lots of ready $$CASH$$ Anthony, pays no property taxes and every week asks for more MONEY!!!!

Imagine your life like that? Having billions in investments and still have the nerve every week, "we need more money"!!

I am sure there are many catholics who will their estates to their church hoping to better their chances in heaven. Money gets swallowed up by the billions..........but we still need more they scream!

UNBELIEVABLE!
Just Sayin

Nashville, TN

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#453158
Jun 17, 2013
 

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OldJG wrote:
Oxbow wrote:
<quoted text>
Scripture alone (from the Reformation slogan Sola Scriptura) is the teaching that Scripture is the Church's only infallible and sufficient rule for deciding issues of faith and practices that involve doctrines. While the Bible does not contain all knowledge, it does contain that which is necessary for salvation. Indeed, if something is not found in Scripture, it is not binding upon the believer. This view does not deny that the Church has the authority to teach God's Word. Furthermore, while tradition is valuable, it but must be tested by the higher authority of the Scriptures.
<quoted text>
Let's ask this question as well. Did the Bible stand up, open it's mouth and declare which of your popes was correct in their interpretation? Please do not lie and tell us your theology has never changed. We can and have presented the fallacy of that argument over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Comprende'
The Church wrote the Bible. It did not fall from the sky.
And, unlike your religion, we don't leave interpretation up to the individual. It is up to the teaching arm of the Church, the Magesterium, which is made up of more than just the pope.
If you claim our theology has "changed", then state specifically how you think it has.

“Greatest Love”

Since: Aug 08

For His Creation

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#453159
Jun 17, 2013
 
Roberta G wrote:
June VanDerMark wrote:
<quoted text>
You can keep lying if it so pleases you ... but if there is a god that serves only Jews ... you are in over your head with lies upon lies.
I suggest you keep THAT in mind.
You can manipulate other people, but you can't manipulate a god ... if that god just HAPPENS to exist.
<quoted text>
Of course, you have NOT told June any lies respective to Luther.
Luther posted his 95 THESES in 1517 in Wittenberg, Germany, and the Pope of the day excommunicated him in 1520. Meanwhile, his teachings had spread like wildfire throughout Germany.
In 1523, a group of 12 nuns, inspired by Luther's teachings, escaped their cloister ("escaped" because they would never have been PERMITTED to leave) with the help of a respected merchant and leading citizen, one Leonard Kopp, and Luther himself.
Once they had escaped, what was to be done with them? Three of them returned to their own homes, while the remaining nine waited for arranged marriages. Naturally, since Luther was single, his friends repeatedly suggested that he marry one of the ex-nuns himself. He rejected the idea, "not because he was a sexless stone, nor because he was hostile to marriage, but because he expected daily the death of a heretic."--"HERE I STAND: A LIFE OF MARTIN LUTHER, Roland H. Bainton
By 1525, all the nuns had been married except one, a 26 year old woman named Katherina von Bora. In the 16th century, 26 was considered a bit long in the tooth for a first marriage :) so her position was delicate. Although two or three matches had been attempted for Katherina, all had fallen through for one reason or another. The latest suggestion was one Dr. Glatz, whom she couldn't stand :) Finally, she asked the help of a visitor to Wittenberg, a Dr. Magdeberg, who conveyed a message to Luther. She would accept either Magdeberg himself or Luther.
Luther had never had any intention of marrying. His father, however, had other ideas. He was a very successful merchant who had been deeply displeased when his son Luther chose the Church as his career instead of becoming a merchant like his father. When Luther told him about the idea of his marrying Katherina, he meant it as a joke, but his father took it seriously :) He wanted to pass on the family name. And Luther began to see the idea in a different light. He fully expected to be burned at the stake within a year, so starting a family THEN could only be seen as defiance at anything that might happen to him. Also, he would rescue Katherina from her dilemma.
"He summed up by giving three reasons for his marriage: to please his father, to spite the Pope and the Devil, and to seal his witness before martyrdom." --"HERE I STAND: A LIFE OF MARTIN LUTHER, Roland H. Bainton
In short, Luther's reasons for marrying were practical in nature, not for love. But he and Katie (whom he called "my rib"!) fell genuinely and deeply in love after they were married. Katherina was an excellent housekeeper, which as Luther's household was continually expanding through the years (many students, etc. lived with the Luthers), having a well-run domestic life was in itself a considerable contribution to Luther's work.
The Luthers had six children together. And by the way, Katherina was no doormat. She fully supported her husband's work, but she was never afraid to speak her mind to him.
I absolutely LOVE their story! Always have :)
Never knew any of that ..thanks.

Peter was married. Just saying. Nit sure why or when the CC DECIDED clergy and nuns shoukdnt
Dan

Wilmington, DE

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#453160
Jun 17, 2013
 

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Just Sayin wrote:
<quoted text>
The Church wrote the Bible. It did not fall from the sky.
And, unlike your religion, we don't leave interpretation up to the individual. It is up to the teaching arm of the Church, the Magesterium, which is made up of more than just the pope.
If you claim our theology has "changed", then state specifically how you think it has.
Gosh, JS, women used to have to wear hats at Mass, now they don't.

Doctrinal sea change there.

:)

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