Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

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#452908
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Anthony MN wrote:
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Wrong. The "pardon" comes in the sacrament of confession. An indulgence is not for the forgiveness or pardon of sin, it is for the remission of the punishment of sin.
C. HEY ANTHONY!!!!! Look!!!!"In other words, indulgences functioned like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation because, if you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something."

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#452909
Jun 16, 2013
 
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
You're not a follower of Luther are you?
Your best bet in this discussion would be to locate any official Church teaching wherein the selling of indulgences is permitted.
Are you having a difficult time denying historical facts...based on an eye witness and participant thereof????!!!!

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Jun 16, 2013
 

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Roberta G wrote:
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There was indeed "outright selling of indulgences." This was the tipping point where Martin Luther was concerned: he was sick over the claim by the Catholic Church (of that time) that salvation could be purchased by money or any other means.
The Popes of that day, Julius II and Leo X (15131521)wanted to build this modest little dwelling we know today as St. Peter's Basilica.
______
"Pope Julius II planned far more for St Peter's than Nicholas V's program of repair or modification. Julius was at that time planning his own tomb, which was to be designed and adorned with sculpture by Michelangelo and placed within St Peter's. In 1505 Julius made a decision to demolish the ancient basilica and replace it with a monumental structure to house his enormous tomb and "aggrandize himself in the popular imagination".
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Such a huge, elaborate structure wasn't going to be cheap.
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"One method employed to finance the building of St. Peter's Basilica was the granting of indulgences in return for contributions. A major promoter of this method of fund-raising was Albrecht, Archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg, who had to clear debts owed to the Roman Curia by contributing to the rebuilding program. To facilitate this, he appointed the German Dominican preacher Johann Tetzel, whose salesmanship provoked a scandal.
A German Augustinian priest, Martin Luther, wrote to Archbishop Albrecht arguing against this "selling of indulgences". He also included his "Disputation of Martin Luther on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences", which came to be known as The 95 Theses. This became a factor in starting the Reformation, the birth of Protestantism."
__________
Both quotes above are from
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Peter%27s_B...
I have a great deal of respect for the Roman Catholic Church, and I particularly admire its uncompromising stance on the value of human life. But there's no point in covering up the mistakes of the past, in the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church (including my own LCMS), American history or any other place. Better to face them squarely and learn from them.
the thruth shall set you free..

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#452911
Jun 16, 2013
 
Roberta G wrote:
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It was financed PARTLY by donations, yes. Fortunately for the peace of mind of millions of Christians then and now, financing it THROUGH EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL failed.
Anthony, I happen to be glad that St. Peter's was built. Among other things, it's a very beautiful building, and is appropriately important to and symbolic of Christians worldwide. But you seem to be trying to whitewash a dark chapter in the history of the Roman Catholic Church. Denying that the RCC of the 16th century used unethical--unCHRISTIAN practices--to raise money, not just for building programs but for other things is just plain inaccurate. It is also defeatist, because when you attempt to rationalize the wrongs of the past, you call into question the trustworthiness of the Church today.
I could not have said that better!!!!!

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

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#452912
Jun 16, 2013
 
Anthony MN wrote:
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St. Peter's was financed with donations. It's the spiritual home to 1.2 billion Catholic Christians 500 years later, open to us all. Today's televangelists finance their personal fortunes with donations. Hardly a fair comparison.
It is all the same con. If you can prove your deity exists, then we might consider it different.

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#452913
Jun 16, 2013
 

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Oxbow wrote:
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However and but....the people selling indulgences were Catholic clergy...and if Luther could see the gross wrongness, so could every other Catholic clergy...including the pope...Luther was the only one to speak up....
The sale of indulgences was a byproduct of the Crusades in the 12th and 13th centuries. Because they risked dying without the benefit of a priest to perform the appropriate ceremonies, Crusaders were promised immediate salvation if they died while fighting to "liberate" the Christian holy city at Jerusalem. Church leaders justified this by arguing that good works earned salvation, and making Jerusalem accessible to Christians was an example of a good work. Over time, Church leaders decided that paying money to support good works was just as good as performing good works, and it evened things up for people who were physically incapable of fighting a Crusade. Over several centuries, the practice expanded, and Church leaders justified it by arguing that they had inherited an unlimited amount of good works from Jesus, and the credit for these good works could be sold to believers in the form of indulgences. In other words, indulgences functioned like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation because, if you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something.
A. The 12th and 13th centuries equal 200 years....that is much more than "a little while"...
B. NOTE: Church leaders justified this by arguing that good works earned salvation, and making Jerusalem accessible to Christians was an example of a good work. "Church leaders" include da pope....
C. HEY ANTHONY!!!!! Look!!!!"In other words, indulgences functioned like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation because, if you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something."
The selling of indulgences was only a problem in Germany, which is why you only see Martin Luther speaking up about it. Martin Luther was from Germany. Everywhere else, everyone followed the teachings of the Catholic Church. So, why would you expect everyone else to speak up about it when the problem was only in Germany??

Furthermore, the selling of indulgences had nothing to do with the Crusades. Martin Luther saw that indulgences were being sold to the rich. Luther protested the selling of the indulgences because he knew that it went against Catholic teaching.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

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#452914
Jun 16, 2013
 
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
St. Peter's was financed with donations. It's the spiritual home to 1.2 billion Catholic Christians 500 years later, open to us all. Today's televangelists finance their personal fortunes with donations. Hardly a fair comparison.
If you show the actual manifests and paperwork in that concern, someone might even believe your rhetoric, but of course you can not.

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Jun 16, 2013
 

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LTM wrote:
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You care but June doesn't Sere.
Yes I care...

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

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#452916
Jun 16, 2013
 
Anthony MN wrote:
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Very few of your protestant brethren who call themselves Christian confess, believe and teach the creed.
I would expect that most cathaholics don't believe it eithert, or they would follow the teachings and attend the church---and they do not.

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#452917
Jun 16, 2013
 
Selene100 wrote:
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Actually, every Catholic knows that if they want their sins to be forgiven, they go through the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession). They do not seek an indulgence to have sins forgiven. That is not what an indulgence is for. That is basic Catholic knowledge.
Maybe now...they have been known to ignore the Word of God...and change their teaching as it suits them..

The point here is, Anthony said, the Catholic church never sold indulgences...that has been proven a lie....over and over...
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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Jun 16, 2013
 

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June VanDerMark wrote:
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I agree. Neither high I.Q. or low I.Q. can capture the essence of the mysteries.
They are what they are, not what humans try to proclaim they are.
"THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE;" Are you not human June??? SOUNDS LIKE YOUR TALKING ABOUT A DIFFERENT SPECIES.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

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#452919
Jun 16, 2013
 
Oxbow wrote:
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Crawl back under your rock....your hissing is not appreciated.
In other words, you have no logical or reasonable refutation to the poster's posit.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

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#452920
Jun 16, 2013
 
Oxbow wrote:
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There is a perfect example of people who claim to be Christians, which the Bible identifies as followers of Christ, by their very beliefs, say they are frauds...
the Athanasian Creed: No one knows who wrote the thing!!!!!!
Here Oxbow. Educate yourself on this...no thanks needed-it's my pleasure.

http://www.wlsessays.net/files/KruegerOrigin....

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#452921
Jun 16, 2013
 
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
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If you show the actual manifests and paperwork in that concern, someone might even believe your rhetoric, but of course you can not.
A vast majority of it came from donations. Some of it came from the indulgences that were being illegally sold in Germany. Some of the corrupted priests in Germany were selling the indulgences to the rich people. They were the ones who had the money, which in turn went to the building of the Basicilia. A major promoter of this method of fund-raising was Albrecht, Archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg, who had to clear debts owed to the Roman Curia by contributing to the rebuilding program. To facilitate this, he appointed the German Dominican preacher Johann Tetzel, whose salesmanship provoked a scandal.

However, the selling of indulgences have always been illegal. That has never changed. The fact that you have a few corrupted people doesn't change the teaching. After all, in every Church there are sinners.

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#452922
Jun 16, 2013
 
Roberta G wrote:
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Don't be silly. Yes, it's accepted today that Athanasius himself probably didn't write the Creed that bears his name. It's named after him because he staunchly upheld what the Creed says.
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"A medieval account credited Athanasius of Alexandria, the famous defender of Nicene theology, as the author of the Creed. According to this account, Athanasius composed it during his exile in Rome...This traditional attribution of the Creed to Athanasius was first called into question in 1642...and it has since been widely accepted by modern scholars that the creed was not authored by Athanasius...Athanasius' name seems to have become attached to the creed as a sign of its strong declaration of Trinitarian faith."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
__________
Why would that be a problem? We don't call the Apostles' Creed "the Apostles' Creed" because we think somebody named "Apostle" wrote it. We don't call the Nicene Creed "the Nicene Creed" because we think somebody called "Nicene" wrote it (it was developed by the Council of Nicaea under Constantine), and we don't call the Pledge of Allegiance the "Pledge of Allegiance" because we think somebody named Allegiance wrote it.
No one knows who wrote the thing...therefore, it cannot be said it is a teaching of Christ.

No matter who put the words together for the apostle's creed, to my knowledge, every word is found in the Bible...it is the teaching of Christ..

We know who put together the Nicene creed...we know who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance...

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

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#452923
Jun 16, 2013
 
Anthony MN wrote:
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What a sucker.
Is that the best you have to offer as rebuttal?
Shows you are inept.

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Jun 16, 2013
 

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Oxbow wrote:
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Maybe now...they have been known to ignore the Word of God...and change their teaching as it suits them..
The point here is, Anthony said, the Catholic church never sold indulgences...that has been proven a lie....over and over...
The Roman Catholic Church never sold indulgences because it was always illegal according to her teaching. It was only a few priests in Germany that sold indulgences. Just because you have a few priests in Germany who went against Catholic teaching does not indicate that they represent the entire Roman Catholic Church.

Every Catholic even during that time knows that if they want their sins forgiven, they go through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The indulgence cannot forgive sins.
Anthony MN

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Jun 16, 2013
 

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Roberta G wrote:
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It was financed PARTLY by donations, yes. Fortunately for the peace of mind of millions of Christians then and now, financing it THROUGH EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL failed.
Anthony, I happen to be glad that St. Peter's was built. Among other things, it's a very beautiful building, and is appropriately important to and symbolic of Christians worldwide. But you seem to be trying to whitewash a dark chapter in the history of the Roman Catholic Church. Denying that the RCC of the 16th century used unethical--unCHRISTIAN practices--to raise money, not just for building programs but for other things is just plain inaccurate. It is also defeatist, because when you attempt to rationalize the wrongs of the past, you call into question the trustworthiness of the Church today.
No question some in the hierarchy were corrupt, I freely admit that. Fundamentalists wrongly assert that corruption translates into false doctrine. I'm simply pointing out that while there were corrupt men, the Church never taught or condoned it.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

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#452926
Jun 16, 2013
 
Selene100 wrote:
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Actually, every Catholic knows that if they want their sins to be forgiven, they go through the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession). They do not seek an indulgence to have sins forgiven. That is not what an indulgence is for. That is basic Catholic knowledge.
Ritual.
That is purely a Pagan practice. I thought your deity was directly responsive to prayer? What happened to the words of your Jesus? do you just ignore them also?
If so, what was the point of having a savior and his utterance of "truth"?
That being the case, your church has usurped the teachings of the central figure of your edifice. IOW -gone astray.

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#452927
Jun 16, 2013
 
Selene100 wrote:
<quoted text>
The selling of indulgences was only a problem in Germany, which is why you only see Martin Luther speaking up about it. Martin Luther was from Germany. Everywhere else, everyone followed the teachings of the Catholic Church. So, why would you expect everyone else to speak up about it when the problem was only in Germany??
Furthermore, the selling of indulgences had nothing to do with the Crusades. Martin Luther saw that indulgences were being sold to the rich. Luther protested the selling of the indulgences because he knew that it went against Catholic teaching.
I will not reiterate the info in my post...only an excerpt...which shows you did not read the info I posted..

The sale of indulgences was a byproduct of the Crusades in the 12th and 13th centuries. Because they risked dying without the benefit of a priest to perform the appropriate ceremonies, Crusaders were promised immediate salvation if they died while fighting to "liberate" the Christian holy city at Jerusalem. Church leaders justified this by arguing that good works earned salvation, and making Jerusalem accessible to Christians was an example of a good work. Over time, Church leaders decided that paying money to support good works was just as good as performing good works, and it evened things up for people who were physically incapable of fighting a Crusade. Over several centuries, the practice expanded, and Church leaders justified it by arguing that they had inherited an unlimited amount of good works from Jesus, and the credit for these good works could be sold to believers in the form of indulgences. In other words, indulgences functioned like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation because, if you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something.

BTW.. Jerusalem is not in Germany!!!!!

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