Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News 558,668
The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ. Full Story

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#452922 Jun 16, 2013
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't be silly. Yes, it's accepted today that Athanasius himself probably didn't write the Creed that bears his name. It's named after him because he staunchly upheld what the Creed says.
----------
"A medieval account credited Athanasius of Alexandria, the famous defender of Nicene theology, as the author of the Creed. According to this account, Athanasius composed it during his exile in Rome...This traditional attribution of the Creed to Athanasius was first called into question in 1642...and it has since been widely accepted by modern scholars that the creed was not authored by Athanasius...Athanasius' name seems to have become attached to the creed as a sign of its strong declaration of Trinitarian faith."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasian_Creed
__________
Why would that be a problem? We don't call the Apostles' Creed "the Apostles' Creed" because we think somebody named "Apostle" wrote it. We don't call the Nicene Creed "the Nicene Creed" because we think somebody called "Nicene" wrote it (it was developed by the Council of Nicaea under Constantine), and we don't call the Pledge of Allegiance the "Pledge of Allegiance" because we think somebody named Allegiance wrote it.
No one knows who wrote the thing...therefore, it cannot be said it is a teaching of Christ.

No matter who put the words together for the apostle's creed, to my knowledge, every word is found in the Bible...it is the teaching of Christ..

We know who put together the Nicene creed...we know who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance...

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#452923 Jun 16, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
What a sucker.
Is that the best you have to offer as rebuttal?
Shows you are inept.

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#452924 Jun 16, 2013
Oxbow wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe now...they have been known to ignore the Word of God...and change their teaching as it suits them..
The point here is, Anthony said, the Catholic church never sold indulgences...that has been proven a lie....over and over...
The Roman Catholic Church never sold indulgences because it was always illegal according to her teaching. It was only a few priests in Germany that sold indulgences. Just because you have a few priests in Germany who went against Catholic teaching does not indicate that they represent the entire Roman Catholic Church.

Every Catholic even during that time knows that if they want their sins forgiven, they go through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The indulgence cannot forgive sins.
Anthony MN

Andover, MN

#452925 Jun 16, 2013
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
It was financed PARTLY by donations, yes. Fortunately for the peace of mind of millions of Christians then and now, financing it THROUGH EMOTIONAL BLACKMAIL failed.
Anthony, I happen to be glad that St. Peter's was built. Among other things, it's a very beautiful building, and is appropriately important to and symbolic of Christians worldwide. But you seem to be trying to whitewash a dark chapter in the history of the Roman Catholic Church. Denying that the RCC of the 16th century used unethical--unCHRISTIAN practices--to raise money, not just for building programs but for other things is just plain inaccurate. It is also defeatist, because when you attempt to rationalize the wrongs of the past, you call into question the trustworthiness of the Church today.
No question some in the hierarchy were corrupt, I freely admit that. Fundamentalists wrongly assert that corruption translates into false doctrine. I'm simply pointing out that while there were corrupt men, the Church never taught or condoned it.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#452926 Jun 16, 2013
Selene100 wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually, every Catholic knows that if they want their sins to be forgiven, they go through the Sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession). They do not seek an indulgence to have sins forgiven. That is not what an indulgence is for. That is basic Catholic knowledge.
Ritual.
That is purely a Pagan practice. I thought your deity was directly responsive to prayer? What happened to the words of your Jesus? do you just ignore them also?
If so, what was the point of having a savior and his utterance of "truth"?
That being the case, your church has usurped the teachings of the central figure of your edifice. IOW -gone astray.

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#452927 Jun 16, 2013
Selene100 wrote:
<quoted text>
The selling of indulgences was only a problem in Germany, which is why you only see Martin Luther speaking up about it. Martin Luther was from Germany. Everywhere else, everyone followed the teachings of the Catholic Church. So, why would you expect everyone else to speak up about it when the problem was only in Germany??
Furthermore, the selling of indulgences had nothing to do with the Crusades. Martin Luther saw that indulgences were being sold to the rich. Luther protested the selling of the indulgences because he knew that it went against Catholic teaching.
I will not reiterate the info in my post...only an excerpt...which shows you did not read the info I posted..

The sale of indulgences was a byproduct of the Crusades in the 12th and 13th centuries. Because they risked dying without the benefit of a priest to perform the appropriate ceremonies, Crusaders were promised immediate salvation if they died while fighting to "liberate" the Christian holy city at Jerusalem. Church leaders justified this by arguing that good works earned salvation, and making Jerusalem accessible to Christians was an example of a good work. Over time, Church leaders decided that paying money to support good works was just as good as performing good works, and it evened things up for people who were physically incapable of fighting a Crusade. Over several centuries, the practice expanded, and Church leaders justified it by arguing that they had inherited an unlimited amount of good works from Jesus, and the credit for these good works could be sold to believers in the form of indulgences. In other words, indulgences functioned like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation because, if you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something.

BTW.. Jerusalem is not in Germany!!!!!
OldJG

Rockford, IL

#452928 Jun 16, 2013
According to the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, an indulgence "is the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven. A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial if it removes part of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary if it removes all punishment."

Since: Jun 10

Location hidden

#452929 Jun 16, 2013
Selene100 wrote:
<quoted text>
The Roman Catholic Church never sold indulgences because it was always illegal according to her teaching. It was only a few priests in Germany that sold indulgences. Just because you have a few priests in Germany who went against Catholic teaching does not indicate that they represent the entire Roman Catholic Church.
Every Catholic even during that time knows that if they want their sins forgiven, they go through the Sacrament of Reconciliation. The indulgence cannot forgive sins.
The people selling indulgences were Catholic clergy...and if Luther could see the gross wrongness, so could every other Catholic clergy...including the pope...Luther was the only one to speak up....

The sale of indulgences was a byproduct of the Crusades in the 12th and 13th centuries. Because they risked dying without the benefit of a priest to perform the appropriate ceremonies, Crusaders were promised immediate salvation if they died while fighting to "liberate" the Christian holy city at Jerusalem. Church leaders justified this by arguing that good works earned salvation, and making Jerusalem accessible to Christians was an example of a good work. Over time, Church leaders decided that paying money to support good works was just as good as performing good works, and it evened things up for people who were physically incapable of fighting a Crusade. Over several centuries, the practice expanded, and Church leaders justified it by arguing that they had inherited an unlimited amount of good works from Jesus, and the credit for these good works could be sold to believers in the form of indulgences. In other words, indulgences functioned like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation because, if you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something.

A. The 12th and 13th centuries equal 200 years....that is much more than "a little while"...

B. NOTE: Church leaders justified this by arguing that good works earned salvation, and making Jerusalem accessible to Christians was an example of a good work. "Church leaders" include da pope....

C. Look!!!!"In other words, indulgences functioned like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation because, if you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something."

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#452930 Jun 16, 2013
Roberta G wrote:
<quoted text>
Then why are you working so hard to look stupid?
Can't rebut my posit huh?
Don't feel bad-most others can't either.
Anthony MN

United States

#452931 Jun 16, 2013
RoSesz wrote:
<quoted text>
How on earth would you know really?
If I confess to my Lord Jesus,you are nit there
If our Church pray e the creed are you there
Are you even allowed to participate in our services??
I am asking respectfully Anthony
Both sides who have had no experience in the other have some really crazy idea of what the other side does in worship.
That US why your Blessed Pope called for Unity..to bring us together.
We can talk about our differences..But why nit learn a bit too.
I went to a Catholic Church fir stations..this us nit forbidden by my faith.
Have you attended a Baptist worship I doubt it.
I had some odd ideas about them too as a,Catholic.
I found these people among the most loving and believing people U had ever met.
The ritual of Mass US beautiful. But I feel closer in a less ritualistic service..But at least I know about both BEFore I speak..
Some of the mainline protestant denominations still recite a creed. Very few, if any, non-denominational communities do. I haven't been to a baptist service in a long time, so if they started doing it, I'm in error.

Bl. John Paul did call for unity, so did Benedict and now Francis. I doubt many fundamentalist evangelicals will heed the call unfortunately.
OldJG

Rockford, IL

#452932 Jun 16, 2013
Anthony MN wrote:
<quoted text>
Full Question
One of the causes of the Reformation was the selling of indulgences. Does the Catholic Church still sell them?
Answer
That's like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife?" The Catholic Church does not now nor has it ever approved the sale of indulgences. This is to be distinguished from the undeniable fact that individual Catholics (perhaps the best known of them being the German Dominican Johann Tetzel [1465-1519]) did sell indulgences--but in doing so they acted contrary to explicit Church regulations. This practice is utterly opposed to the Catholic Church's teaching on indulgences, and it cannot be regarded as a teaching or practice of the Church.
http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/does-t...
My question; do TV evangelicals like Benny Hinn and so many others not participate in even worse behavior as their own private fortunes are from gullible poor fools?
You said, quote, "My question; do TV evangelicals like Benny Hinn and so many others not participate in even worse behavior as their own private fortunes are from gullible poor fools?" End quote.

Which "church" does Benn Hinn represent? If he is a thief he is an independent thief not an organized thief as is the Roman Catholic church. Your cult has perfected the fleecing of it's flock and has fleeced you and many, many like you of a brain which should question the moral corruption right under your nose.
Anthony MN

United States

#452933 Jun 16, 2013
Oxbow wrote:
<quoted text>
That sounds like a similar type argument I heard when two old friends were in a heated argument...finally one stands up and says: Look....I never ever said your wife has warts on her stomach!!!! I only said it felt like she had warts on her stomach!!!
I don't think you have the wherewithal to understand the difference.

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#452934 Jun 16, 2013
Oxbow wrote:
<quoted text>
I will not reiterate the info in my post...only an excerpt...which shows you did not read the info I posted..
The sale of indulgences was a byproduct of the Crusades in the 12th and 13th centuries. Because they risked dying without the benefit of a priest to perform the appropriate ceremonies, Crusaders were promised immediate salvation if they died while fighting to "liberate" the Christian holy city at Jerusalem. Church leaders justified this by arguing that good works earned salvation, and making Jerusalem accessible to Christians was an example of a good work. Over time, Church leaders decided that paying money to support good works was just as good as performing good works, and it evened things up for people who were physically incapable of fighting a Crusade. Over several centuries, the practice expanded, and Church leaders justified it by arguing that they had inherited an unlimited amount of good works from Jesus, and the credit for these good works could be sold to believers in the form of indulgences. In other words, indulgences functioned like "confession insurance" against eternal damnation because, if you purchased an indulgence, then you wouldn't go to hell if you died suddenly or forgot to confess something.
BTW.. Jerusalem is not in Germany!!!!!
And how can the selling of indulgences be a byproduct of the Crusadde Wars of the 12 and 13th centuries when the selling of indulgences only took place in the 16th century??

Where did you get this information?? No Catholic has ever called an indulgence a "confession insurance" because it doesn't even have to do with confession or forgiveness of sins. Every Catholic knows this..including the Catholics of the 12th and 13th centuries.
hojo

Minneapolis, MN

#452935 Jun 16, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text>
No it's not.
You spew all this BS, and expect everyone and anyone to just accept it as fact. Then when it is called out, you deflect and stoop to the rhetoric you are spewing in this very post--because you can NOT back your BS up with any reasonable fact.
I couldn't care less as to whether you or anyone else accepts Jesus Christs One True Apostolic Catholic Church or not! It's your choice!! Jesus said: you are either for me or against me!! There is nothing in between! If you choose to live in your vindictive (anti-God anti-Church) "isolated world of atheism or agnosticism" hate then so-be-it!!We as Christians are well aware of the history of persecution by such people. The Early Christians suffered persecution, torturing, burning at the stake, beheadings, etc. by atheistic and agnostic emperors such as Nero,(64) Domitian,(95) Trajan,(112) Hadrian,(125)Severus,(202) Decius (250) and on and on! The fact remains that we as Catholics "know and adhere to the TRUTH" of the Gospel of Jesus Christ that God (Our Father) has revealed to His followers over 2000 years ago.
I/we as Catholics on this forum, as well as the other 1.169 Billion Catholics around the world, will continue to worship God Our Father and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, each and every day at Daily Mass, despite those who are out to "undermine and destroy the Catholic/Christian faith and the Church.

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#452936 Jun 16, 2013
OldJG wrote:
According to the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, an indulgence "is the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven. A properly disposed member of the Christian faithful can obtain an indulgence under prescribed conditions through the help of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints. An indulgence is partial if it removes part of the temporal punishment due to sin, or plenary if it removes all punishment."
This is correct. An indulgence never had anything to do with the forgiveness of sins because the sin is already forgiven. An indulgence has to do with punishments of sins that are already forgiven.

In the Bible, David repented of his sins and God forgave him. But God still took away David's son because that was the punishment of the sin that David committed. Despite that David's sin was forgiven by God, that does not mean that he will escape the punishment. God forgave David his sin, but David still lost his son.
Anthony MN

United States

#452937 Jun 16, 2013
Oxbow wrote:
<quoted text>
Maybe now...they have been known to ignore the Word of God...and change their teaching as it suits them..
The point here is, Anthony said, the Catholic church never sold indulgences...that has been proven a lie....over and over...
The Church never taught or condoned the selling of indulgences. If a Southern baptist preacher commits adultery with a congregant does that mean the SBC teaches and condones adultery (except in your case of course)?
OldJG

Rockford, IL

#452938 Jun 16, 2013
Selene100 wrote:
<quoted text>
Where in my post did I say that Abraham or Moses is not part of God's Church?? The Catholic Bible has both the Old Testament and the New Testament; therefore, Abraham and Moses is part of our Catholic history. After all, the first Christians were Jews. In fact, one can still see the Jewish roots and heritage in the Catholic Church and her liturgies.
Also, nowhere in Catholicism do we teach that Mary is our Savior. Catholicism teaches that Christ is our Savior. We only give respect and honor to Mary because Jesus gave respect and honor to His mother.....and Jesus is the person we imitate and follow.
You said, quote, "The Catholic Bible has both the Old Testament and the New Testament; therefore, Abraham and Moses is part of our Catholic history." End quote.

Abraham and Moses are part of your Roman Catholic history? Really? Neither of these men ever heard the words "Roman Catholic".

You said, quote, "We only give respect and honor to Mary because Jesus gave respect and honor to His mother.....and Jesus is the person we imitate and follow." End quote.

In what verse of the Bible does Jesus call Mary "mother"?

Since: Mar 10

Location hidden

#452939 Jun 16, 2013
Black Thunder 42 wrote:
<quoted text>
Ritual.
That is purely a Pagan practice. I thought your deity was directly responsive to prayer? What happened to the words of your Jesus? do you just ignore them also?
If so, what was the point of having a savior and his utterance of "truth"?
That being the case, your church has usurped the teachings of the central figure of your edifice. IOW -gone astray.
No, it is not pagan. It is biblical. Christ DID give His Apostles the authority to forgive or retain sins (John 20:23). God forgives the sins using people as His instruments. In the same way, God uses people to continue the ministry of Christ. The ministry of Christ did not stop at the death of the Apostles.

“ Ah see's lanlubbers Cap'n BT!”

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#452940 Jun 16, 2013
Selene100 wrote:
<quoted text>
A vast majority of it came from donations. Some of it came from the indulgences that were being illegally sold in Germany. Some of the corrupted priests in Germany were selling the indulgences to the rich people. They were the ones who had the money, which in turn went to the building of the Basicilia. A major promoter of this method of fund-raising was Albrecht, Archbishop of Mainz and Magdeburg, who had to clear debts owed to the Roman Curia by contributing to the rebuilding program. To facilitate this, he appointed the German Dominican preacher Johann Tetzel, whose salesmanship provoked a scandal.
However, the selling of indulgences have always been illegal. That has never changed. The fact that you have a few corrupted people doesn't change the teaching. After all, in every Church there are sinners.
Point is, if the church did not excommunicate those selling it, they "condoned" it...it "profited" the church...who would naturally seek a scapegoat when exposed.

Since: Apr 07

Location hidden

#452941 Jun 16, 2013
June VanDerMark wrote:
<quoted text>
Are you and your bible enlightening people to treat each other as equals?

Your religion teaches that we must all follow your beliefs or end up on the short end of the stick, in hell.

I have no use for such nonsense. Superstitious religion creates the disturbances on earth that it professes to CURE.
You're mistaken, as usual. My religion teaches that Jesus died that all might become God's children, sons and daughters of the King :)

__________

John 3:16 [Jesus said] "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him. 18 Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of Godís one and only Son."

*****

John 1:12 To all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God.

*****

Galatians 3:26 So IN CHRIST JESUS YOU ARE ALL CHILDREN OF GOD THROUGH FAITH, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.

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