Roman Catholic church only true church, says Vatican

Full story: CBC News

The VaticanA issued a document Tuesday restatingA its belief that the Roman Catholic Church is the only true church of Jesus Christ.

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#398791
Oct 28, 2012
 
www.GetvipNews[dot]com/Roman-C atholic-church-only-true-churc h
Dust Storm

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#398792
Oct 28, 2012
 

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Pad wrote:
<quoted text>It's about time someone figured out the math on this and realized the ridiculousness of such an accusation against the rest of the Body of Christ.
I understand that the Catholics feel they are under attack constantly,but to rationalize their stance by claiming the Prots and evangelicals have over 42,000 doctrines is nothing short of insanity,and disrespect to the Holy Spirit.
It may be the way one wants to read the data, but to call people liars because they read the data the way it is presented by the source is quite disingenuous. There may be a difference of opinion with reading the data, but that doesn't make one a liar as has been charged. I have copied the chart covering three pages from the World Christian Encyclopedia. I think everyone invovled with apologetics should have a copy of this set. This chart is what all the hubbub is all about.

Now you can see the data for yourself and you can be the judge whose numbers are right and who's are wrong. You can see who is trying to be fair and who is being disingenuous.

You can see the Chart for yourself. It is entitled: "Organized Christianity: global membership ranked by 6 major ecclesiastico-cultural megablocs and 300 major traditions AD 1970-2025." This chart is found on pages 16-18 of the World Christian Encyclopedia published by Oxford University Press.

Page one, page two, page three. Page three is very significant because it has the total numbers along the bottom.

What do you see on the Chart?
When you look at the chart you will see the 6 megablocs are 1) Orthodox, 2) Roman Catholic, 3) Aanglican, 4) Protestant, 5) Independent, 6) Marginal Christian. Together these groups made up 33,909 "denominations" (their word, not mine) in 2000 AD.

1) Orthodox broke with Rome around 1000 AD. They are a schism and in 2000 AD made up 764 of this number.

2) Roman Catholics make up 242 of this number but they are almost all in union with Rome just with names like Melkite, Maronite, etc.

3) Anglicans made up 168 "denominations." Though listed in a separate category than "Protestant" they can certainly be seen as "protestant" having broke from Rome in the same century as the followers of Luther and Calvin. However, their numbers are insignificant.

4) Protestants make up 8,973 "denominations." This catagory includes mainline Protestant groups like Baptists, Adventists, Presbyterian, Lutheran, etc.

cont.
Dust Storm

Pipestone, MN

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#398793
Oct 28, 2012
 

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5) Independent Christian groups made up 22,148 "denominations'' and included groups like Independent Baptist, Plymouth Brethren, Independent Methodist, Independent Lutheran, Apostolic Congregations, Charismatic denominations, Pentecostal, other Adventists, Reformed Anglicans, Independent Reformed Presbyterian, Old Catholic, and many more (see the chart). Now, if you cut these out and say they are not "protestant" then my numbers are false. But even though they are listed as "Independent" they are every bit "protestant denominations." Even if you knock off a few bizarre, questionable ones it still is a huge number. To say that one who counts these as "protestant denominations" are liars is quite disingenuous.

6) Marginal Christian groups make up only 1,596. These include Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Liberal Catholic, Gnostic, Swedenborgian, etc. These are not "protestant" but certainly fall within the pale of appearing as "Christian" to an uneducated observer.

My Sincere Apology:
So, what do we have? Cut out the Orthodox, Catholic, Anglican and Marginal Christian groups and you end up with 31,121 Protestant and Independent Protestant denominations. So, I sincerely apologize for being 1,879 too high when I said the number was 33,000. That works out to 5.6% in error. You all have my sincere apology (tongue in cheek):-)

By now, 7 years beyond 2,000 AD used by World Christian Encyclopedia, I suspect my number is now too low and maybe I should raise it to 39,000, the number listed on the Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary site.

Now what do we find projected for 2025?
Here are the projections which you can also see on the Chart.

Catholics will go from 242 in 2000 to 245 in 2025. More rites loyal to Rome will be added. Hurrah!
Anglicans will go from 168 to 169.
Protestants Mainline denominations will go from 8,973 to 9,490.
Independent "protestant" churches will go from 22,148 to a whopping 49,431.
Marginals will go from 1,596 to 2,030.

Conclusion:
Looking at these numbers with the charts provided so you can see for yourself if someone wants to call me and the other Catholic apologists liars, then I would be very careful about anything else they tell you. And we may ask who really owes who an apology?

Now I put this to an end for I have more important things to do. I will let the opponent have the last word word since he'll take it anyway. Catholic apologists can continue to use 33,000+ as the number of denominations with confidence.

http://www.catholic-convert.com/2007/08/27/lo...
Dust Storm

Pipestone, MN

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#398794
Oct 28, 2012
 

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Pad wrote:
<quoted text>That is not true,you should know that if I am painfully off the mark,and that my theology here is inaccurate that you have eevery right to correct as you see fit.I do not have the last word on this.
I want to tell you though,that it is not my own personal interpretation.
There is no if you are always painfully off the mark. Furthermore your individual beliefs are as large as your number for you have prescribed for yourself sola authority.

Tim: I know that Jesus is God in human form. I also know that the prayer goes, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be world without end." In Genesis, God says, "Let us make man in our own image." I know that the Virgin Mary was the mother of Christ. But, Jesus existed before Mary did. Not in human form, I'll grant you. It sounds like you embrace a modualist position--that is, you believe that God the Father becomes God the Son who becomes God the Holy Spirit. I know that Catholics do not, but to call Mary the Mother of God is to call Mary a goddess, because God's mother existed before God did (hence the label, mother). As Jesus says in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." The Father existed before creation, as did the Son and the Spirit.

J. Salza: Tim, if Jesus is God and Mary is Jesus' mother, than Mary is the Mother of God. Period. This does not mean Mary is the mother of Jesus' divinity. Not at all. Mary is the mother of the PERSON, Jesus Christ, who is God. We don't limit Mary's motherhood to Jesus' human nature. Do you call your mother the mother of your human nature only? No. Even though your mother did not give you your soul, she is still the mother of YOU, as a PERSON. Similarly, even though Mary did not give Jesus His soul or divinity, she still is His mother. This does not elevate Mary to a goddess anymore than it elevates your mother to a goddess, who participated in giving you an immortal soul. Your modalist point is way off base. Mary is the Mother of the Divine Person, Jesus Christ, who is God. Don't confuse the human and divine natures, but also don't reduce Mary's motherhood to Jesus' nature alone, and not His personhood.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/mary_qa.html...

You can find yourself in these heresies. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-great-here... As I have pointed out to you several times you are quick to judge others and even say they are not Christian, yet you maintain the right of private judgment and interpretation. You would have called Elizabeth a Mary Worshiper because she referred to the Blessed Virgin as "Adonia" My Lord and My God. In the never ending quest of Protestants to diminish Mary you repeat heresies, you try to redefine the Trinity and you really wonder why Muslims and Christians find you confusing? Who is Jesus? This is the question that is being addressed when Mary is given name "Theotokos" It is not making Mary into a goddess. You cannot tolerate the idea that Mary did not give birth to other children and totally butcher the Jewish tradition of family members taking in the Mother as was to Honor thy Father and Mother is entrenched in the Jewish custom to take care of their elderly parents. Jesus gave Mary to the care of John and this would have been unheard of.
Dust Storm

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#398795
Oct 28, 2012
 

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Dust Storm wrote:
<quoted text>
There is no if you are always painfully off the mark. Furthermore your individual beliefs are as large as your number for you have prescribed for yourself sola authority.
Tim: I know that Jesus is God in human form. I also know that the prayer goes, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be world without end." In Genesis, God says, "Let us make man in our own image." I know that the Virgin Mary was the mother of Christ. But, Jesus existed before Mary did. Not in human form, I'll grant you. It sounds like you embrace a modualist position--that is, you believe that God the Father becomes God the Son who becomes God the Holy Spirit. I know that Catholics do not, but to call Mary the Mother of God is to call Mary a goddess, because God's mother existed before God did (hence the label, mother). As Jesus says in John 10:30, "I and the Father are one." The Father existed before creation, as did the Son and the Spirit.
J. Salza: Tim, if Jesus is God and Mary is Jesus' mother, than Mary is the Mother of God. Period. This does not mean Mary is the mother of Jesus' divinity. Not at all. Mary is the mother of the PERSON, Jesus Christ, who is God. We don't limit Mary's motherhood to Jesus' human nature. Do you call your mother the mother of your human nature only? No. Even though your mother did not give you your soul, she is still the mother of YOU, as a PERSON. Similarly, even though Mary did not give Jesus His soul or divinity, she still is His mother. This does not elevate Mary to a goddess anymore than it elevates your mother to a goddess, who participated in giving you an immortal soul. Your modalist point is way off base. Mary is the Mother of the Divine Person, Jesus Christ, who is God. Don't confuse the human and divine natures, but also don't reduce Mary's motherhood to Jesus' nature alone, and not His personhood.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/mary_qa.html...
You can find yourself in these heresies. http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-great-here... As I have pointed out to you several times you are quick to judge others and even say they are not Christian, yet you maintain the right of private judgment and interpretation. You would have called Elizabeth a Mary Worshiper because she referred to the Blessed Virgin as "Adonia" My Lord and My God. In the never ending quest of Protestants to diminish Mary you repeat heresies, you try to redefine the Trinity and you really wonder why Muslims and Christians find you confusing? Who is Jesus? This is the question that is being addressed when Mary is given name "Theotokos" It is not making Mary into a goddess. You cannot tolerate the idea that Mary did not give birth to other children and totally butcher the Jewish tradition of family members taking in the Mother as was to Honor thy Father and Mother is entrenched in the Jewish custom to take care of their elderly parents. Jesus gave Mary to the care of John and this would have been unheard of.
Just to clarify I meant to say Elizabeth referred to Mary as Mother of My Lord and My God "Adonia", because I know how the simpleton Protestants like to pick a singular thing and deflect from the point being made. I want to again thank the Protestants for bringing people to the Catholic Faith and showing your immense ignorance, hatred and unsurpassed ability to blather false witness and multiple doctrines unapolgetically and sparring with one another while maintaining in your delusional minds that you all believe the same. There is no greater witness that the Catholic Church is the true church and that you people are a massive collection of varied beliefs and are all in charge and there is no authority but you and what you think the bible says or may have meant inserting your own tradition and opinions. Sola Confusing.
hojo

Minneapolis, MN

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#398796
Oct 28, 2012
 

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Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
At first, I thought how refreshing it was that someone was asking me a question.
.
Then I read your second part of your post, and you keep right on going to your "answer."
.
Since you have already made up your mind on the matter, what on earth is the point of asking *me?*
.
You certainly aren't interested in any info I might provide.
.
Rob
As a former Protestant----Rob--you have to understand, that bible only Protestants "are not interested" in learning the TRUTH--- but--ONLY--- in attacking the TRUTH-- and passing their "own personal opinion judgmental vengeance" (against) 2000 years of the historical and biblical TRUTH of Jesus Christ and His One True Catholic Church.
hojo

Minneapolis, MN

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#398797
Oct 28, 2012
 

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Pad wrote:
<quoted text>It's about time someone figured out the math on this and realized the ridiculousness of such an accusation against the rest of the Body of Christ.
I understand that the Catholics feel they are under attack constantly,but to rationalize their stance by claiming the Prots and evangelicals have over 42,000 doctrines is nothing short of insanity,and disrespect to the Holy Spirit.
I'm quite sure that it has "exceeded 42,000" since you made your response!!
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#398798
Oct 28, 2012
 

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hojo wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm quite sure that it has "exceeded 42,000" since you made your response!!
there are over 42,000 religions out there HoJo for sure.
many not of the christian faith.
If you keep with in the catholic doctrine, your religion is Maryism.
LTM

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#398799
Oct 28, 2012
 

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Oxbow wrote:
769<quoted text>
Oxbow wrote:
by Mary Ann Collins (A Former Catholic Nun)
to catholic's this woman does not exist Oxbow.

Since: Aug 12

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#398800
Oct 28, 2012
 

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hojo wrote:
<quoted text>
As a former Protestant----Rob--you have to understand, that bible only Protestants "are not interested" in learning the TRUTH--- but--ONLY--- in attacking the TRUTH-- and passing their "own personal opinion judgmental vengeance" (against) 2000 years of the historical and biblical TRUTH of Jesus Christ and His One True Catholic Church.
Oh, CAN the crap, Hoho. You don't even know enough to give the word Bible a capital letter. In fact, you don't know enough to fill a thimble.
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#398801
Oct 28, 2012
 
Pad wrote:
<quoted text>I am really concerned for this country over the Hurricane Sandy.Oh that God would show mercy to this country and lessen the might of this storm to just a rain storm minus the wretched severity!
You will have to evacute Regina,is there some place you and your family can go?
Hi Pad my son and his family are also right in direct line to be hit by this Hurricane. I hope Regina and her family go to a save place. I remember as a kid Hurricane Hazel hit Toronto, it was actually 3 storm fronts that came together and formed into a 5 Hurricane. Anything can happen with these storms and usually does.

Since: Aug 12

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#398802
Oct 28, 2012
 

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Fr Robert Dye wrote:
<quoted text>
Boy, I looked at this, and was sure startled. Surely THAT could not be from the CCC!
.
The paragraph makes it look as though Mary has a "saving office" equivalent to Christ.
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THAT certainly could not be right!
.
As it turns out, it wasn't.
.
You carefully edited out the part of the paragraph that tells what Mary's "saving office" actually *is.*(It turns out she did have one, just as Moses and all the prophets did, and one quite distinct from anyone else in salvation history.
.
I won't bother putting the chopped out part in the thread. You obviously did not want anyone else to read it, which is why you edited it the way you did. Anybody can find the entire paragraph, unedited, by Googling "CCC 969."
.
Dishonesty is unbecoming, Oxbow. The truth, unvarnished and unedited, should be enough to make your point.
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When it isn't, and you have to resort to deception, it says something about your position, or you, or both.
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Too bad.
.
I might have found discussing faith with you illuminating in some way.
.
Now that I know you are willing to cheat, I know there is no point.
.
Rob
Well, Rob, then obviously you don't know whast is really IN that 'CCC', because what was posted here concerning Mary IS IN IT, word for word. I also have a copy of the CCC, and it claims EXACTLY that.
Romanism not only tries to place her equal with Jesus, but above Him.
Yup -- to quote you: "Dishonesty is unbecoming". When does the romanist cult plan to STOP lying?
LTM

Sudbury, Canada

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#398803
Oct 28, 2012
 

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4GVN wrote:
<quoted text>42,198 "DOCTRINES" . You are an idiot.
First it was 40,000 went up to 41,000 now its 42,198 LOL I guess the sky is the limited.
Clay

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#398804
Oct 28, 2012
 

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JUST-A-CHRISTIAN wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, Rob, then obviously you don't know whast is really IN that 'CCC', because what was posted here concerning Mary IS IN IT, word for word. I also have a copy of the CCC, and it claims EXACTLY that.
Romanism not only tries to place her equal with Jesus, but above Him.
Yup -- to quote you: "Dishonesty is unbecoming". When does the romanist cult plan to STOP lying?
Be very careful not to falsely accuse us. Its better for you to consult with a Catholic and ask what Catholics believe, instead of ignorantly telling us what we believe. Your soul is in serious jeopardy every time you bare false witness against us.
Clay

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#398805
Oct 28, 2012
 

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JUST-A-CHRISTIAN wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, Rob, then obviously you don't know whast is really IN that 'CCC', because what was posted here concerning Mary IS IN IT, word for word. I also have a copy of the CCC, and it claims EXACTLY that.
Romanism not only tries to place her equal with Jesus, but above Him.
Yup -- to quote you: "Dishonesty is unbecoming". When does the romanist cult plan to STOP lying?
However, part of me doesn't mind if you all continue baring false witness. Its these very lies from your mouths that brought me back to the Catholic faith. I was 'just a couch Christian' like you, Justa couch Christian. I had a choice on what to believe. I immediately recognized the lies from your side about Catholicism, so obviously I knew you people are not preaching truth.
Amen.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#398806
Oct 28, 2012
 
Instead of fighting over mary or why the bible included joe's lineage, since his blood line had nothing to do the jesus; why don't we concentrate on what the bible god says?

"So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory. He thoroughly defeated the Ammonites from Aroer to an area near Minnith twenty towns and as far away as Abel-keramim. Thus Israel subdued the Ammonites. When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter his only child ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy. When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish. "My daughter!" he cried out. "My heart is breaking! What a tragedy that you came out to greet me. For I have made a vow to the LORD and cannot take it back." And she said, "Father, you have made a promise to the LORD. You must do to me what you have promised, for the LORD has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites. But first let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." "You may go," Jephthah said. And he let her go away for two months. She and her friends went into the hills and wept because she would never have children. When she returned home, her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin. So it has become a custom in Israel for young Israelite women to go away for four days each year to lament the fate of Jephthah's daughter." (Judges 11:29-40 NLT)

Can we agree that this is sick?
Clay

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#398807
Oct 28, 2012
 

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LTM wrote:
<quoted text>
to catholic's this woman does not exist Oxbow.
I never heard of her LTM. I would not put it past Ox (among others) to make up a name, Mary Ann Collins, for the sole purpose of spreading lies about us. This is not unusual LTM.. I know your heart loves Jesus and Our Lord loves you back. This should make you want to seek out the truth. If your team is baring false witness in order to preach their version of the Gospel, you best run.

Hypotheticaly, if Sister Collins was real, so what? The woman is an idiot for thinking she was worshiping Mary, and likely will be eternally regretfully for accusing her former Sisters of something they are not guilty of.

Again, false accusations against Catholicism (statue and Mary worship) are what brought me back into the Church and the fullness in the Holy Eucharist. I will forever be thankful for that JW guy and my wifes Evangelical friend who tried in vain to make me believe Catholics are worshiping Mary. I pray other potential victims of these people can recognize that a lie like that can only be from the Devil.
Clay

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#398808
Oct 28, 2012
 

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LTM wrote:
<quoted text>
First it was 40,000 went up to 41,000 now its 42,198 LOL I guess the sky is the limited.
40,000, 30,000, 100, 50 or 3 different Protestant sects. It really doesn't matter how many. There can be only one Church. They are all in the wrong if they teach outside of this Church.
marge

Ames, IA

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#398809
Oct 28, 2012
 

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Clay wrote:
<quoted text>
40,000, 30,000, 100, 50 or 3 different Protestant sects. It really doesn't matter how many. There can be only one Church. They are all in the wrong if they teach outside of this Church.
The church is wrong if they teach outside the Bible. Think of the Bereans, they searched the Scriptures to see if Paul(the church)was telling the Truth.

And Clay, all of us born-agains here were saved by Faith alone, a gift from God, not from works. First thing one must do to be part of the True Church.

Since: Dec 06

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#398810
Oct 28, 2012
 
New Age Spiritual Leader wrote:
<quoted text>
"This being the case, hasn't this merely proved the point that gnosticsism has not progressed in some "mental fashion", but merely puts on new "religous garments" to what is popular belief, in adapting itself, not as a force of attaining enlightenment, but of being part of the material world?"
It has progressed, just not in the fashion you expect.
Those who have taken this belief and "ran with it", like me, have developed a much better understanding of the material world we exist in. In my life, I try to separate that "darkness" you and Christianity think only exists outside your world.
I guess you don't understand that all religions are of men.
And if you apply your logic to this, then none of these religions are true and only reside because of darkness.
I'll disagree to the point that all religions are in darkness.
....greeting friend

By your response,"Those who have taken this belief and "ran with it", like me, have developed a much better understanding of the material world we exist in."

This makes you a true gnostic....One who believes that some special kind of knowledge is salvation. This makes gnosticism exclusive in nature, thus not available to all humanity....

You also go on to write," In my life, I try to separate that "darkness" you and Christianity think only exists outside your world."

Obviously, that is an opinion....Something you think...Notice the irony in that statement....

A Christian may not always do what is right. But is convicted, and then can repent. In your system of gnosticism, it is simply "trying" to seperate out darkness....It then falls short because there is no sacrifice. Christianity is the better choice in logical sense because Jesus is the Sacrifice.

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