Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Read more

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#203117 Jan 15, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
God could exist in spite of the behavior of the church.
Not if you're talking about the god of the Christian bible. A god or gods in the generic sense cannot be ruled out, but certain specific gods can be.
lightbeamrider wrote:
Belief in God is in no way contingent on the behavior of folks who attend church. It is not what i base my beliefs on. Sam and his group act like animals but yet attend church on Sunday morning. Therefore there is no God. It does not follow.

[QUOTE who="lightbeamrider" ]
Sure you don't desire to kill in the green tree but that can switch at any time because you have no anchor outside of yourself which commands you to be duty bound to resist change for the worse. What is to stop you from modifying your views if the green tree becomes dry and circumstances change. Nothing really since you believe death means extinction with no accountability to anything afterwards.
That's an example of an idea that the church teaches its adherents about people like me that I object to. I consider somebody that believes that whatever he his convinced that his wants him to do is moral more dangerous that somebody who uses his own conscience. What is to stop a Christian from killing me if he thinks his god commands it?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#203118 Jan 15, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
IMO we are all to one degree or another atheists including me. If i hold secret contempt or grudges or behave in ways which are not Christlike then i am acting as if i am not accountable to God. Betraying inward convictions that i am accountable and should live life accordingly. Every thing i fail to do or do that i know is wrong is an embrace of atheism which does not honor God.
I don't think you understand what atheism is, or what atheists are. We are not in rebellion to your god.
lightbeamrider wrote:
There is an anchor there which prevents going off the deep end. The standard answer from hyper critics is the assumption a Christian could not be moral without religion which is not true.
We get that from reading things like what you just posted about anchors - about atheists having no moral grounding preventing us from going off the deep end.
lightbeamrider wrote:
One can be moral or a tyrant without God. The difference being in the Theist realm people are held accountable for the damage they do.
I think the opposite is true. If I violate my conscience, I have to live with the guilt and shame that follows. With Christianity, people feel forgiven just by asking for forgiveness. Does your god ever answer no? I have no such easy forgiveness available to me.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#203119 Jan 15, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Who are you blaming here? How would a lack of school prayer result in a decline in America? Did your god withhold his favor in a snit, or did the Christians just start rebelling? The public was and still is overwhelmingly Christian. If Christians that have already outgrown public school need for children in school to say prayers in order to behave morally as adults, then Christianity simply isn't an adequate system for teaching moral behavior.

The prayer needs to be at school? It won't work if its done at home over breakfast?
Whatever societal collapse you are imagining happened in Christians. The number calling themselves anything other than Christian remained under 15% through 1990 - 28 years after 1962. Even now, only about 3% of Americans call themselves atheists. If America became immoral because of what happened over a generation earlier, it was predominantly Christians doing it.
Feel free to pray if you think it will help. It's your right, and has been since the founding of the nation. I just don't see where it matters. Haven't Christians been praying for America all along as it continues in its decline, even now?
"Blaming"? If you insist on that word, I'm blaming everyone. Prayer does not need to be at school no. But for nearly 200 years, our school kids prayed every morning and then it suddenly stopped and was suddenly unconstitutional. I think this had a tremendous impact on the psyche of the American mind. It's undeniable that after the loss of daily school prayer, the America lifestyle slowly changed for the worse.

Banning the daily prayer didn't automatically change anyone. It had has a gradual, slow effect on our society. The downturn of the American familial structure speaks for itself. It didn't end with banning the daily prayer, it's also now suddenly unconstitutional for an athlete to lead his team with a prayer, or for a student to offer a prayer at a graduation ceremony.

Here we are, over 50 years later and we're worse off than we were. You secular humanism isn't working for America.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#203120 Jan 15, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Because I can't find a designer. nor a definite need for one.
Plus, those that claim otherwise have been wrong innumerable times. Science keeps showing us how the universe works without a god. It used to be believed that the planets were gods, or were moved by angels, and that thunder, auroras and earthquakes were the manifestations of unseen gods warring or expressing anger.
Abiogenesis and cosmogenesis - the origins of the first cell and of the singularity - are the last frontiers. There is no reason to expect that a god came along, created a singularity, waited for it to expand for about ten billion years, and then returned to put a cell in it to evolve. Nobody except faith based thinkers expect that to be the case, and we know why they think that.
I don't think he had to return.

All matter and energy, all potential that was to be, is present in the singularity.

"In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God".

Word = information?

The key to the evolution of life from non-life, the evolution of the diversity of life, is information. It's presence, it's replication, and it's transfer.

We discover new information in that process practically every day. And there is the quantum level of information and information processing. It was there from the beginning - somewhere.

When the brain developed a sufficient information-handling ability, we had the arrival of consciousness. We learned "I am".

Thinking out loud.

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#203121 Jan 15, 2014
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Legacy of my atheist days.
The neural connections are still being repaired.
Amusing that you would think you could zing me with such a weak effort at wit.
Eat some Wheaties.
Do you have a need for people to zing you?

There are doctors who can help you with your persecution complex.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#203122 Jan 15, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
We are all part of the problem.
Just for shins and griggles, I'm going to propose that unfettered free-market capitalism is responsible for far more of the decline you've cited.

Capitalism has no inherent humanity - it is an economic system that rewards "Immoral" behavior while penalizing "moral" behavior.

"It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second."
John Steinbeck

I'm not saying that there's a better system. Capitalism has all the >potential< to increase shared prosperity, and showed signs of doing so for about 30 years in the last century. But we couldn't let that go on forever - shareholders wouldn't stand for it. Thus, in the same timeframe you cited, we've seen the middle class erode, opportunity fly away, and cynical acquisitiveness replace traditional "Christian values". It's been so successful that today if the Pope cites values taken straight from Jesus, he is denounced on certain mass media outlets as a "commie". American Christians by and large have bought into the health and wealth doctrine promulgated by mega-churches. Some have become amazingly dismissive of Jesus' own words and example.

The Christian church has not only failed in it's leadership role, it has allowed it's very soul to be subverted to an economic system that has no inherent humanity.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#203123 Jan 15, 2014
Just Think wrote:
<quoted text>
Do you have a need for people to zing you?
There are doctors who can help you with your persecution complex.
:-)

I don't need a doctor. Your zings are too weak to worry about.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#203124 Jan 15, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
And when did I place Satan in a physical form?
Since you believe in Satan how is that if not in a physical form?

Do you [Self] use your brain to do this? Or is it just something that others told you to "believe in"?

What does this "Satan" look like? Does "he" even have a physical appearance, or is just an invisible wind that exists in your mind?

Lots of questions that seem to be not answered with your belief?

Or is it that you just have "faith" that a belief exists within you?

Really?

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#203125 Jan 15, 2014
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/articl...

"A survey from Manchester University found a direct correlation between higher visits to religious places and lower crime figures, especially in relation to shoplifting, drug use and music piracy."

"As part of the project, more than 1,200 18 to 34-year-olds from across all the UK's major faiths were were asked about their worshipping habits"

Interesting synchronicity relating to a discussion on here about how the decline of religion leads to increased crime and other social ills,such as Topix atheism.

Note the age group.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#203126 Jan 15, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
Disagree. Sam Harris is qualified to rebut Alexander's claims about the cessation of his cortical function, which included a criticism of a brain evaluation limited to spinal fluid, physical exams, and CT scans rather than functional studes like fMRI and PET scans, as well as an inquiry into the possible effects of fever, endogenous DMT, and exogenous ketamine.
But even if true, where do you get terrified from that? How about incredulous?
I disagree that he is competent to do that - as his main occupation for some time is writing books and speaking to support atheism and denigrate religion.

Plus he got facts of Alexander's case wrong.

Plus, that's not all he did. He demeaned the credibility of Alexander's account of events, without being familiar with them.

Sam Harris is an ideological hack, whatever his medical credentials. I would not trust him to comment on a runny nose, if it had something to do with a theistic belief.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#203127 Jan 15, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh, geez. You're really reaching.
Um, let's try it this way:
I have enough faith in you to give you the key to my house, but I can't trust that you won't rob me blind.
It works either way.
Because faith and trust mean virtually the same thing, especially in this context.
faith
strong belief or trust in someone or something.
trust
firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone or something.
www.merriam-webster.com
No RR - I'm not reaching, just stating the obvious.

You fail to look at all the possibilities which include specifics. Thus, you then conclude that your way is accurate and others are not.

Again, you fail at understanding that this is not always the case.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#203128 Jan 15, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Esquire has an article in which the treating medical staff debunks several of Alexander's claims. That's not surprising - that's the business skeptics trade in.
What is equally unsurprising is Alexander's response: "Esquire's cynical article distorts the facts of my 25-year career as a neurosurgeon and is a textbook example of how unsupported assertions and cherry-picked information can be assembled at the expense of the truth.
In other words, the defense rebuttal amounts to, "Huh Uh! You're stupid!"
Sounds very familiar
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-23543...
He didn't say they were stupid. He said they distorted facts and assembled unsupported assertions.

You know,...like you just did.

I hear some theologian that writes for the Huffington Post also exposed David Barton's dishonesty about religion and the founding.

Turns out the guy, Throckmorton "distorted facts and assembled unsupported assertions", and Barton's work has proven to be accurate.

Just so you know what Alexander claims has precedent.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#203129 Jan 15, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:

A primary purpose of public education is to shape good citizens, yes?
It aint necessarily so wrote:
Nope. Schools exist to make citizens literate and numerate. The family and then later the culture at large is where characters are forged.
Right.... Then what's the purpose of a home economics class, a basketball team or a choir??

You and I see public schooling quite differently.

“What are you looking at?”

Since: Jan 08

Albuquerque, NM

#203130 Jan 15, 2014
BenAdam wrote:
I feel bad for the decent "believers" who, although only 1 in 100, are stained by the feces thrown by the other 99.
(49) Jesus says:

(1) "Blessed are the solitary ones, the elect. For you will find the kingdom.
(2) For you come from it (and) will return to it."

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#203131 Jan 15, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:

Actually, you did suggest just that.
But now that you are acknowledging that reinstating school-led prayer isn't enough to fix America's problems, what percentage of the whole do you attribute to that? More like 95%, 80%, 50%, 20% or 5%?
My stance hasn't changed.

The loss of school prayer was the beginning, not the end.
Replaced? Christianity is still the predominant influence in American culture. If there has been dismal failure, it happened in Christians as well.
Yes, replaced.

Do I need to repeat myself for you?
The experiment with irreligiosity hasn't even begun yet in America. Where it has - in socialist democracies like Sweden and Denmark - it is a resounding success. It promises to be in America as well. You should pray that it will be.
It began over 50 years ago, man. Where have you been?

Sure , sure... Go to Sweden. You will be extremely unlikely to find a job or rent an apartment. Having a Swedish surname is like a prerequisite for them to consider you. The racial problems of Sweden are ridiculous. If you think racial profiling and prejudice are bad in America, you should look into the Swedes problems...

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#203132 Jan 15, 2014
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
:-)
I don't need a doctor. Your zings are too weak to worry about.
You need a second opinion.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#203133 Jan 15, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
"Blaming"? If you insist on that word, I'm blaming everyone. Prayer does not need to be at school no. But for nearly 200 years, our school kids prayed every morning and then it suddenly stopped and was suddenly unconstitutional. I think this had a tremendous impact on the psyche of the American mind. It's undeniable that after the loss of daily school prayer, the America lifestyle slowly changed for the worse.
Banning the daily prayer didn't automatically change anyone. It had has a gradual, slow effect on our society. The downturn of the American familial structure speaks for itself. It didn't end with banning the daily prayer, it's also now suddenly unconstitutional for an athlete to lead his team with a prayer, or for a student to offer a prayer at a graduation ceremony.
Here we are, over 50 years later and we're worse off than we were. You secular humanism isn't working for America.
Your premise is rife with falsehoods.

Mandated school prayer has NEVER in the history of the nation been universal. Mandated devotionals were common in some Southern and Eastern states, nearly non-existent in the Midwest and West.

Challenges to an official mandated prayer go back to the 19th century. The Ohio SC held in 1870 that schools could not hold mandatory prayer. Roman Catholics filed suit in the mid-18th century to prohibit a mandated Protestant prayer.

Voluntary prayer and religious groups are not only NOT prohibited, their rights are and have been been protected by....who? You'll never guess. The dreaded ACLU. I can spam the page with the filings. In the few anecdotal instances you may cite, the determination is whether the prayer is coercive in nature. For example, why should a Jew have to sit through a Christian prayer at a graduation ceremony? Why should a Protestant have to sit through a Catholic prayer? Why should an atheist have to sit through any of them? That is coercive in nature and an imposition of one religion on all present.

One of the primary reasons that public religious observance have gotten a bad name is precisely because of the resort to outright falsehoods such as those you keep repeating ad nauseum.

Again, we find you to be part of the very problem you moan about.

Since: May 10

Location hidden

#203134 Jan 15, 2014
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Wrong, What he knows is propaganda, super market tabloid hype and mythology stories all washed down with incredulity, hypocrisy and lies. He probably would not know a fact if one sat on his face and farted, and if he did recognise it as a fact he would deny it out of hand if it a non believer in his god ideas doing the farting.
A man after your own heart eh?
Chrissy, you have lost every single exchange with me, not just lost, but been decimated, by a factual and logical reply.

I have handled you with kid gloves. I have fun ridiculing some of your statements, but even that is more kind than telling you what your ramblings really are.

You are not up to confronting me intellectually. That's saying the least of it. You are, in my assessment, suffering a psychological disorder. I will not try to diagnose you on specifics, but you need to see a doctor and be treated for it.

If you are seeing a psychiatrist presently, you need to bring up to him or her your behavior on this forum.
Bongo

Coram, NY

#203135 Jan 15, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Just for shins and griggles, I'm going to propose that unfettered free-market capitalism is responsible for far more of the decline you've cited.
Capitalism has no inherent humanity - it is an economic system that rewards "Immoral" behavior while penalizing "moral" behavior.
"It has always seemed strange to me... the things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, understanding and feeling, are the concomitants of failure in our system. And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, egotism and self-interest, are the traits of success. And while men admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second."
John Steinbeck
I'm not saying that there's a better system. Capitalism has all the >potential< to increase shared prosperity, and showed signs of doing so for about 30 years in the last century. But we couldn't let that go on forever - shareholders wouldn't stand for it. Thus, in the same timeframe you cited, we've seen the middle class erode, opportunity fly away, and cynical acquisitiveness replace traditional "Christian values". It's been so successful that today if the Pope cites values taken straight from Jesus, he is denounced on certain mass media outlets as a "commie". American Christians by and large have bought into the health and wealth doctrine promulgated by mega-churches. Some have become amazingly dismissive of Jesus' own words and example.
The Christian church has not only failed in it's leadership role, it has allowed it's very soul to be subverted to an economic system that has no inherent humanity.
Interesting pontificating there hipnotorized

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#203136 Jan 15, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
RiversideRedneck wrote:
A primary purpose of public education is to shape good citizens, yes?
<quoted text>
Right.... Then what's the purpose of a home economics class, a basketball team or a choir??
You and I see public schooling quite differently.
Economics, home or otherwise, is valuable to students. Basketball teams and choirs are after school activities.

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