Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

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#173251
Aug 2, 2013
 

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ignorance [ˈɪgn&#6 01;rəns]
n
lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignorance

a·the·ist (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist

dis·be·lief (dsb-lf)
n.
Refusal or reluctance to believe.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disbelief

These are the definitions of ignorance, atheism, and disbelief. As you can see, ignorance is simply lack of knowledge. Atheism is disbelief or denial of God.
Disbelief is a conscious thought process and is synonymous with denial.

The default human position regarding God, is ignorance. Not atheism.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#173252
Aug 2, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Atheism is not simply lack of knowledge of God. That would be classified as ignorance. When you don't have knowledge of something, one is ignorant regarding that subject. Atheism is willful rejection of belief in God. A baby has no cognitive knowledge of God but does have the inquisitive mind to explore the world he or she is a part of. So the baby isn't an atheist. A baby is an open minded exploring human being. To be able to say "I'm an atheist" one has to know what atheism is, and one has to be aware that this is a conscious choice.
If we ask a person "Do you believe in God?" the default answer of ignorance would be "What is God?" If I ask you, you're going to say that you don't believe in any god. It's not a position of ignorance you hold. It's one of conscious choice to willfully reject the existence of any God.
I definitely have tendencies towards ignosticism. There is a fundamental problem even in defining the concept of 'God'. For example, if you identify God with the universe or the laws of physics, then I believe in God. But I also feel that such an identification is a misuse of the word 'God'.

Anything past that and I need more specifics to know whether I believe, disbelieve, or am uncommitted to your particular God. I definitely do not believe in Thor, Athena, Zeus, Yahweh, Ahura Mazda, Allah, or Coyote.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#173253
Aug 2, 2013
 

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Roman Apologist wrote:
ignorance [&#712;&#618;gn&#6 01;r&#601;ns]
n
lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignorance
a·the·ist (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist
dis·be·lief (dsb-lf)
n.
Refusal or reluctance to believe.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disbelief
These are the definitions of ignorance, atheism, and disbelief. As you can see, ignorance is simply lack of knowledge. Atheism is disbelief or denial of God.
Disbelief is a conscious thought process and is synonymous with denial.
The default human position regarding God, is ignorance. Not atheism.
If you do not believe because of lack of evidence, is that a refusal to believe?

“Robert Stevens”

Since: Dec 08

Jersey City , NJ

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#173254
Aug 2, 2013
 
Divine Alien wrote:
When we leave this world, we are going back to God himself.
You will, as you do know yourself, others here are God's drones. They do know themselves.

Since: Jun 07

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#173255
Aug 2, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
ignorance [&#712;&#618;gn&#6 01;r&#601;ns]
n
lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignorance
a·the·ist (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist
dis·be·lief (dsb-lf)
n.
Refusal or reluctance to believe.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disbelief
These are the definitions of ignorance, atheism, and disbelief. As you can see, ignorance is simply lack of knowledge. Atheism is disbelief or denial of God.
Disbelief is a conscious thought process and is synonymous with denial.
The default human position regarding God, is ignorance. Not atheism.
When you're brave enough to prove the god you're here to lie about, your opinions will matter more.

Since: Jun 07

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#173256
Aug 2, 2013
 

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Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
It's one of conscious choice to willfully reject the existence of any God.
Most creationists don't accept atheism. They always need to see atheism in the context of faith, belief, satanism, or any other attempt to manipulate the actual definition to please the infected mind of the mentalluy ill creationists.

Creationists love to try to redefine atheism on their own terms, which shows you how deceitfully they think.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

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#173257
Aug 2, 2013
 

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-Skeptic- wrote:
<quoted text>
When you're brave enough to prove the god you're here to lie about, your opinions will matter more.
Do you realize this is a contradictory (and therefore self-refuting) statement?

You're stating that I'm lying and that I need bravery to prove the thing you think I'm lying about. How am I to prove it if you already carry the presupposition that I'm lying? You would have to remove that presupposition, which would then endanger your worldview. Since you don't know me, you're forced by your presuppositions to believe that I'm lying, which is an example of blind faith. You hold this opinion with no evidence for it.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

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#173258
Aug 2, 2013
 
-Skeptic- wrote:
<quoted text>
Most creationists don't accept atheism. They always need to see atheism in the context of faith, belief, satanism, or any other attempt to manipulate the actual definition to please the infected mind of the mentalluy ill creationists.
Creationists love to try to redefine atheism on their own terms, which shows you how deceitfully they think.
I didn't try to define it based upon my own terms. I showed the dictionary definitions along with the links. They all correlate to each other within the context of atheism. By doing so, I showed no evidence of deceit. Further, an assertion of mental illness via the internet and without a valid license to practice psychology or psychiatry violates the ethics of the medical profession and the basic methodologies of science which require observation in accordance with established criteria for making said diagnosis.

Do you really think things through before you post?
blacklagoon

Boston, MA

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#173259
Aug 2, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
There is less evidence for a deity than there is for the luminous ether. I don't believe the luminous ether exists either.
Or...The evidence for God is at the same level as evidence for werewolves.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

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#173260
Aug 2, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
If you do not believe because of lack of evidence, is that a refusal to believe?
Lack of evidence is an interesting subject in itself. What are the criteria for evidence? Is it "beyond reasonable doubt" i.e. certainty? Or, is it "preponderance of the evidence" meaning "more likely than not." I know you have stated that your standard is "beyond reasonable doubt" which equates to certainty or so near certainty as to be indistinguishable from certainty. My question though, is "why?" Why beyond reasonable doubt? My contention is that we all do things every day that do not require certainty. We get in our cars and go to work without even thinking of the probability of an accident. We step into the shower without considering the probability of a slip and fall accident. We cook without considering whether or not we will burn down our house. In all of these activities we can significantly reduce risks, but not to the extent that we can enjoy 100% certainty of success. So if we can do all of these activities with less than 100% certainty, then why require such a high standard for the evidence that points to the existence of God?
blacklagoon

Boston, MA

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#173261
Aug 2, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
ignorance [&#712;&#618;gn&#6 01;r&#601;ns]
n
lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignorance
a·the·ist (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist
dis·be·lief (dsb-lf)
n.
Refusal or reluctance to believe.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disbelief
These are the definitions of ignorance, atheism, and disbelief. As you can see, ignorance is simply lack of knowledge. Atheism is disbelief or denial of God.
Disbelief is a conscious thought process and is synonymous with denial.
The default human position regarding God, is ignorance. Not atheism.
Your obvious mistake here is in defining the word "ignorance" Lack of knowledge or information means that knowledge and information are available. There is NOT information on the existence of God, nor is there any information outside of your holy book. A better application of the word ignorance would be those who refuse to accept the facts of evolution. Here both information and knowledge ARE available, but some chose to ignore it. More aptly this is called willful ignorance. There can be NO ignorance when NO information or knowledge is non-existent. Please, the bible can not be used as a source for your argument as it is noting more than a circular argument, and personal experience NEVER constitutes proof. As has been pointed out to you, we are ALL born as Atheists, and become indoctrinated in a God belief later. Yes, the default position is Atheism.
blacklagoon

Boston, MA

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#173262
Aug 2, 2013
 
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>
Lack of evidence is an interesting subject in itself. What are the criteria for evidence? Is it "beyond reasonable doubt" i.e. certainty? Or, is it "preponderance of the evidence" meaning "more likely than not." I know you have stated that your standard is "beyond reasonable doubt" which equates to certainty or so near certainty as to be indistinguishable from certainty. My question though, is "why?" Why beyond reasonable doubt? My contention is that we all do things every day that do not require certainty. We get in our cars and go to work without even thinking of the probability of an accident. We step into the shower without considering the probability of a slip and fall accident. We cook without considering whether or not we will burn down our house. In all of these activities we can significantly reduce risks, but not to the extent that we can enjoy 100% certainty of success. So if we can do all of these activities with less than 100% certainty, then why require such a high standard for the evidence that points to the existence of God?
Please answer these honestly. Why don't you line your doorway with garlic? How frighten are you to go out for a walk at night that you will be attacked by werewolves? Are you ever apprehensive about crossing a footbridge wondering if a troll will come up and eat you?

My criteria for evidence IS high, and why should it be anything but? It is extremely important for me to know that my beliefs are TRUE. As my beliefs INFORM my actions. And I will go to great lengths to make sure that beliefs are as true as possible. I'm sorry that your standards for evidence are so low.

Of course nothing is certain, but we are NOT talking about certainty, we're talking about acceptable evidence. And when I say nothing is certain, I am talking about certainty as part of the naturalistic realm. You do like to play with word meanings, are trying to equate certainty with evidence.

The lack of evidence for vampires, werewolves and trolls is no different from the lack of evidence for God. You seem to put God on a higher pedestal than the other three, and laugh at the comparison. "Of course i don't believe in trolls and vampires and werewolves, but God, now that is completely different." And why is that? Because so many people accept God...argument for popularity, or because of your holy book? There are many holy books all making similar claims about a God thing. Because it seems more plausible to you personally? In the end, the evidence for your God is as non-existent As it is for vampires trolls and werewolves.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#173263
Aug 2, 2013
 

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Exactly as is proven by the fact all believers have to be taught about God. Were he self evident a child would know about him without being taught.

Belief in god is a learned behavior.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>A new born is born with no concept of go, no belief in any god.

When a human has no belief in god they are atheists, i.e. the default position is atheism

What is learned later, whether it is by exploration or teaching is not the default position.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#173264
Aug 2, 2013
 
It doesn't state what exactly? I merely stated exactly what was written in Matthew 2 from your own link.

Once again Luke says they lived in Nazareth and were traveling for the census remember? They tried to get a room at an Inn in Bethlehem remember? None were available remember? So they had to use a manger yes? Like in the nativity scene remember? Are we in agreement? No errors there right? So in Luke they were traveling from their home in Nazareth tired and Mary ready to give birth. Since they had nowhere to stay she gave birth in a manger yes?

Matthew states they lived in Bethlehem and more so lived there for two years after his birth before fleeing to Egypt. Once it was safe they moved to Nazareth.
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>It doesn't state that in either Matthew 1 or 2. Here, read for yourself.
LT

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#173265
Aug 2, 2013
 
How long are you suggesting they stayed in the Manger? Verse 11 they entered the house. THE HOUSE not the manger. House. So they clearly had a house. No mention of traveling from Nazareth for the census or any reason right? In fact it clearly says as I stated before that they didn't go to Nazareth until after Egypt. Verse 23.

Do try to catch up :))
Roman Apologist wrote:
Matthew 2

New Living Translation (NLT)
Visitors from the East

2 Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, during the reign of King Herod. About that time some wise men[a] from eastern lands arrived in Jerusalem, asking, 2 “Where is the newborn king of the Jews? We saw his star as it rose,[b] and we have come to worship him.”

3 King Herod was deeply disturbed when he heard this, as was everyone in Jerusalem. 4 He called a meeting of the leading priests and teachers of religious law and asked,“Where is the Messiah supposed to be born?”

5 “In Bethlehem in Judea,” they said,“for this is what the prophet wrote:

6 ‘And you, O Bethlehem in the land of Judah,
are not least among the ruling cities[c] of Judah,
for a ruler will come from you
who will be the shepherd for my people Israel.’[d]”

7 Then Herod called for a private meeting with the wise men, and he learned from them the time when the star first appeared. 8 Then he told them,“Go to Bethlehem and search carefully for the child. And when you find him, come back and tell me so that I can go and worship him, too!”

9 After this interview the wise men went their way. And the star they had seen in the east guided them to Bethlehem. It went ahead of them and stopped over the place where the child was. 10 When they saw the star, they were filled with joy! 11 They entered the house and saw the child with his mother, Mary, and they bowed down and worshiped him. Then they opened their treasure chests and gave him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh.

12 When it was time to leave, they returned to their own country by another route, for God had warned them in a dream not to return to Herod.
The Escape to Egypt

13 After the wise men were gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream.“Get up! Flee to Egypt with the child and his mother,” the angel said.“Stay there until I tell you to return, because Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

14 That night Joseph left for Egypt with the child and Mary, his mother, 15 and they stayed there until Herod’s death. This fulfilled what the Lord had spoken through the prophet:“I called my Son out of Egypt.”[e]

16 Herod was furious when he realized that the wise men had outwitted him. He sent soldiers to kill all the boys in and around Bethlehem who were two years old and under, based on the wise menÂ’s report of the starÂ’s first appearance. 17 HerodÂ’s brutal action fulfilled what God had spoken through the prophet Jeremiah:

18 “A cry was heard in Ramah—
weeping and great mourning.
Rachel weeps for her children,
refusing to be comforted,
for they are dead.”[f]
The Return to Nazareth

19 When Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt. 20 “Get up!” the angel said.“Take the child and his mother back to the land of Israel, because those who were trying to kill the child are dead.”

21 So Joseph got up and returned to the land of Israel with Jesus and his mother. 22 But when he learned that the new ruler of Judea was Herod’s son Archelaus, he was afraid to go there. Then, after being warned in a dream, he left for the region of Galilee. 23 So the family went and lived in a town called Nazareth. This fulfilled what the prophets had said:“He will be called a Nazarene.”

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...

Feel free to show me where in the bible it says they lived in Bethlehem for two years. I provided both chapters of Matthew that describe the conception and birth of Jesus.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#173266
Aug 2, 2013
 
Ignorance seems to go pretty well with your belief system actually.
Roman Apologist wrote:
ignorance [&#712;&#618;gn&#6 01;r&#601;ns]
n
lack of knowledge, information, or education; the state of being ignorant

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ignorance

a·the·ist (th-st)
n.
One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist

dis·be·lief (dsb-lf)
n.
Refusal or reluctance to believe.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/disbelief

These are the definitions of ignorance, atheism, and disbelief. As you can see, ignorance is simply lack of knowledge. Atheism is disbelief or denial of God.
Disbelief is a conscious thought process and is synonymous with denial.

The default human position regarding God, is ignorance. Not atheism.

Since: Mar 11

Louisville, KY

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#173267
Aug 2, 2013
 
Yes very well said!
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>If you do not believe because of lack of evidence, is that a refusal to believe?

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

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#173268
Aug 2, 2013
 
Givemeliberty wrote:
It doesn't state what exactly? I merely stated exactly what was written in Matthew 2 from your own link.
Once again Luke says they lived in Nazareth and were traveling for the census remember? They tried to get a room at an Inn in Bethlehem remember? None were available remember? So they had to use a manger yes? Like in the nativity scene remember? Are we in agreement? No errors there right? So in Luke they were traveling from their home in Nazareth tired and Mary ready to give birth. Since they had nowhere to stay she gave birth in a manger yes?
Matthew states they lived in Bethlehem and more so lived there for two years after his birth before fleeing to Egypt. Once it was safe they moved to Nazareth.
<quoted text>
No, Matthew 2 does not state that at all. Look at it again.

“a.k.a. GhostWriter2U”

Since: Jul 13

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#173269
Aug 2, 2013
 
Givemeliberty wrote:
How long are you suggesting they stayed in the Manger? Verse 11 they entered the house. THE HOUSE not the manger. House. So they clearly had a house. No mention of traveling from Nazareth for the census or any reason right? In fact it clearly says as I stated before that they didn't go to Nazareth until after Egypt. Verse 23.
Do try to catch up :))
<quoted text>
Yes it says the magi entered the house. But it does NOT say Jesus was born in the house. I see your mistake. You're projecting this onto the nativity scene that is popular during Christmas celebrations. Matthew assumes that they were able to find a room or house between the time of the birth and the time of the visit from the Magi. Just because an artist's rendering has the Magi present in the Nativity scene doesn't mean it was that quick. From Bethlehem, they went to Egypt, and then returned to Nazareth after leaving Egypt. Now that I know where and how you were confused this pretty much clears it up.

Since: Mar 11

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#173270
Aug 2, 2013
 
How can you say what Matthew assumes? Do you have a time machine and the ability to read minds? Nope you are merely projecting your apologetic feelings.

Luke says they travel from Nazareth and Jesus is born in a manger. Matthew we see no traveling from Nazareth, no manger and worse it doesn't say after Egypt they RETURNED to Nazareth it just says they went to this town Nazareth clearly showing that they had not lived there before. Had the writer if the Matthew myth thought they lived in Nazareth before he clearly would said returned.

See? Your apologetic biblical fan fiction requiring the use of time machines and mind reading fails when you use critical thinking skills. Thank you for illustrating your apologetic ignorance.
Roman Apologist wrote:
<quoted text>Yes it says the magi entered the house. But it does NOT say Jesus was born in the house. I see your mistake. You're projecting this onto the nativity scene that is popular during Christmas celebrations. Matthew assumes that they were able to find a room or house between the time of the birth and the time of the visit from the Magi. Just because an artist's rendering has the Magi present in the Nativity scene doesn't mean it was that quick. From Bethlehem, they went to Egypt, and then returned to Nazareth after leaving Egypt. Now that I know where and how you were confused this pretty much clears it up.

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