Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 255967 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#170616 Jul 2, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
It *can't* be at its peak because it doesn't have the fuel required. Oxygen is needed to restore the ATP needed to run the system. The feelings and story were made up *after* the period of inactivity and 'filled in'. We know the brain does such 'filling in' in many situations, producing 'memories' that are out of order of the actual events.
<quoted text>
I doubt it was produced by evolutionary pressures. The release of endorphins in response to pain has a definite evolutionary effect: it makes the pain recede for a while, allowing focus on survival. The side effect is the hallucinations from the opiods. In the case of NDEs, the story comes from the 'tunnel vision' produced by anoxia and cultural expectations that are filled in later.
How can you focus on survival when you are knocked out cold? Why would this pain deaden you while you drift off to death?

You say there is fill in. Yes, there is to a degree after you regain consciousness, but your brain is working during that period, and in an orderly fashion for a lump of meat. Plus you have to have stored input to be played back in that reconstruction. It doesn't get stored unless something controls that. Reference what I said earlier about mirror images.

If your brain can reconstruct after an event like that then you are in a constant state of delusion. Your belief in "reality" is one of those.

This is too complex to discuss on a place like this, but you must understand I went through the experience, and from reading my posts it is quite apparent I don't believe in poofs or magic and can get into serious detail in analyzing how something happens. You are trained to follow a logic. I was trained to understand logics and how they originated. Those examples you give are extremely simplified block type thinking that are nothing more than rationalizations for not being able to get into the details of how such could occur. The fact is there is order and a certain coherency to those events that can't happen on such a consistent basis purely from action/reaction of molecules. There is an unseen direction to the interaction of those molecules.

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#170617 Jul 2, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>Just putting in my two cents:
Let me get this straight:
The supposed Christian "God" has no problem with allowing child molesters, murderers, rapists, thieves, etc....into Heaven with nothing more than saying "forgive me".
YET, Critical thinkers will burn in hell for eternity...suffering?
You buy that crap? You AGREE with that crap?
Honestly...is that a God worth worshipping?
I struggle with this too. I'm related to someone who molested a lot of children and destroyed many, many lives. This "person" became a christian on his deathbed. I have a hard time believing that he would have anything to contribute to heaven. Either way, maybe these types of people never make it into any sort of afterlife? Since it's really not up to them to decide anyway.

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#170618 Jul 2, 2013
Favorite Adversary wrote:
<quoted text>
During the BBC interview, the neurosurgeon says the surgery lasted for an hour and that ALL brain activity was brought to a halt before the surgery could even begin. An experienced neurosurgeon who was there certainly knows more than you and I, especially when we were NOT there.
Actually the surgery lasted 7 hours, From 7:15am to 2:40pm. The brain activity was brought to a halt at 11:05, and then brain begins to respond at 11:20 (a mere 15 minutes)
There is a very clear timeline of the surgery on multiple medical sites.
I say hallucination, with effects from anesthesia.

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#170619 Jul 2, 2013
scambuster wrote:
<quoted text>
I struggle with this too. I'm related to someone who molested a lot of children and destroyed many, many lives. This "person" became a christian on his deathbed. I have a hard time believing that he would have anything to contribute to heaven. Either way, maybe these types of people never make it into any sort of afterlife? Since it's really not up to them to decide anyway.
Great post!
The reality is...no one knows.
That's why I am Agnostic.
Maybe there is an "afterlife"???
I say, does there really have to be a GOD to experience an afterlife, or other dimensions?
Not really.
Maybe there is an afterlife, or other dimensions, without a GOD.
Maybe there is a God, without other dimensions, or an afterlife?
I love Critical thinking....

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#170620 Jul 2, 2013
Favorite Adversary wrote:
<quoted text>
During the BBC interview, the neurosurgeon says the surgery lasted for an hour and that ALL brain activity was brought to a halt before the surgery could even begin. An experienced neurosurgeon who was there certainly knows more than you and I, especially when we were NOT there.
I would have to add that an experienced Neurosurgeon that was THERE (or at ANY brain surgery for that matter) would know there isn't a brain surgery in history that only lasted an hour.
You might be mistaken with what you've heard the Neurosurgeon say on BBC.
no biggie :D
Thinking

Lymington, UK

#170621 Jul 2, 2013
Wow... long hours no doubt being worked to get "safe" tyres to Germany in just three days.
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes thanks, I don’t have Pirelli tyres.
Massa’s blew right in front of me (about 50 feet) it was frightening, I really can’t imagine how the drivers felt at close on 200MPH. I once had a blow out at 70 and that was bad enough.

“I see quantum effects”

Since: Jan 11

In the macro world.

#170622 Jul 2, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>I was quoting the HOLY WORD OF GOD! not some jumbo-mumbo atheist are very dumb!!!!! you chumps use no logic
Well, those quotes came about long before your god was made up.

And they hold a lot more meaning than, "You wanna see the boss? You gotta get through me, first. Capiche?"

“Sweden more democratic thanUSA”

Since: Jun 12

Södertälje, Sweden

#170623 Jul 2, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>I was quoting the HOLY WORD OF GOD! not some jumbo-mumbo atheist are very dumb!!!!! you chumps use no logic
There's no god and no holy words only words of man

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#170624 Jul 2, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>Great post!
The reality is...no one knows.
That's why I am Agnostic.
Maybe there is an "afterlife"???
I say, does there really have to be a GOD to experience an afterlife, or other dimensions?
Not really.
Maybe there is an afterlife, or other dimensions, without a GOD.
Maybe there is a God, without other dimensions, or an afterlife?
I love Critical thinking....
I was agnostic for a very long time too, until a series of subjective experiences that I believe were designed to lead me onto a path in which I would chose Christianity. This happened pretty recently, as a lot of my posts from even 6 months to 1 year ago were agnostic in nature. Stay open minded... Life is wonderful like that :)

My thoughts on an afterlife is that if there is one, someone, or something would have to be able to restore human consciousness with every experience, environmental factor, genetic history, and even factors that humans, collectively haven't even discovered yet. Otherwise, "me" would not really be me. No easy task.
Favorite Adversary

Brooklyn, NY

#170625 Jul 2, 2013
scambuster wrote:
<quoted text>
I struggle with this too. I'm related to someone who molested a lot of children and destroyed many, many lives. This "person" became a christian on his deathbed. I have a hard time believing that he would have anything to contribute to heaven. Either way, maybe these types of people never make it into any sort of afterlife? Since it's really not up to them to decide anyway.
Forgiveness is only one part of the equation. The other part is sincere regret over actions committed. Saying "Father forgive me" doesn't mean anything if the person isn't truly sorry for the consequences of their actions. The important thing to remember is that God sees all of humanity as equal in the way they act. Humans view transgressions with varying degrees of seriousness while God views all transgressions on the basis of selfishness. Therefore, all sins are equally wrong.

My hypothesis is that all transgressions are based on the concept of theft. If we bully somebody, we are in effect stealing their dignity and self-worth. If we kill, we are stealing someone's life. If we lie, we are stealing truth. If all transgressions are given by a supreme moral lawgiver who loves us all equally, then all transgressions among us are also equal, and we are equal in asking for forgiveness if sincere.
Favorite Adversary

Brooklyn, NY

#170626 Jul 2, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, those quotes came about long before your god was made up.
And they hold a lot more meaning than, "You wanna see the boss? You gotta get through me, first. Capiche?"
Would you like an explanation of that passage? Your understanding of it is a very simple mistake.

Jesus was saying that His sacrifice was God's redemptive plan. Our willingness to accept the gift of grace is how we get to God. It's not like you're picturing it. Like walking up to a cosmic receptionist and saying "Let me see the boss." It's not that at all.

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#170627 Jul 2, 2013
scambuster wrote:
<quoted text>
I was agnostic for a very long time too, until a series of subjective experiences that I believe were designed to lead me onto a path in which I would chose Christianity. This happened pretty recently, as a lot of my posts from even 6 months to 1 year ago were agnostic in nature. Stay open minded... Life is wonderful like that :)
My thoughts on an afterlife is that if there is one, someone, or something would have to be able to restore human consciousness with every experience, environmental factor, genetic history, and even factors that humans, collectively haven't even discovered yet. Otherwise, "me" would not really be me. No easy task.
I am 35 years old, so it would take a LOT of proof or experiences to convert me to Christianity.
I would be curious as to WHAT changed you from Agnostic to Christian specifically?
I am absolutely open minded....that's why Im Agnostic instead of Atheist. I am open to PROOF at any time! I WANT proof. I welcome proof!

Why would "someone or something" have to restore human consciousness?
Why would it take a "God" to do that?
Why couldn't consciousness be restored without Someone or something doing it?
Maybe is restores itself automatically.

Me being "me" has to do with DNA, and that is the premise of Darwinism...natural selection, and individualism.
I'm confused as to WHY you use individualism as your point, when individualism is the premise against Christianity?

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#170629 Jul 2, 2013
Favorite Adversary wrote:
<quoted text>
Forgiveness is only one part of the equation. The other part is sincere regret over actions committed. Saying "Father forgive me" doesn't mean anything if the person isn't truly sorry for the consequences of their actions. The important thing to remember is that God sees all of humanity as equal in the way they act. Humans view transgressions with varying degrees of seriousness while God views all transgressions on the basis of selfishness. Therefore, all sins are equally wrong.
My hypothesis is that all transgressions are based on the concept of theft. If we bully somebody, we are in effect stealing their dignity and self-worth. If we kill, we are stealing someone's life. If we lie, we are stealing truth. If all transgressions are given by a supreme moral lawgiver who loves us all equally, then all transgressions among us are also equal, and we are equal in asking for forgiveness if sincere.
I think you missed my point:
But I must address this first:
1. The bible say Jesus DIED for our sins....meaning all we have to do is ASK for forgiveness. That simple. Nowhere in the bible does it say "the person has to be truly sorry for their actions". It says they merely ASK and receive forgiveness. Even if they do the SAME sin multiple times.

2. This is the part that irks me.....God (supposedly) allows and forgives pedophiles, murderers, rapists, etc...into Heaven, for nothing more than ASKING forgiveness.
YET, good people like me (who has never raped, molested, murdered, or harmed anyone in any way EVER) will burn in hell for ETERNITY for Critical thinking!
...so, is that a God worthy of worshipping?

Get my point?

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#170630 Jul 2, 2013
Mikko wrote:
<quoted text>
There's no god and no holy words only words of man
I don't believe you...

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#170631 Jul 2, 2013
Snow Bunny_ wrote:
<quoted text>Just putting in my two cents:
Let me get this straight:
The supposed Christian "God" has no problem with allowing child molesters, murderers, rapists, thieves, etc....into Heaven with nothing more than saying "forgive me".
YET, Critical thinkers will burn in hell for eternity...suffering?
You buy that crap? You AGREE with that crap?
Honestly...is that a God worth worshipping?
Yes 100 %

“Imaginez tous les gens”

Since: Sep 09

Sunbury, OH

#170632 Jul 2, 2013
Favorite Adversary wrote:
<quoted text>
Would you like an explanation of that passage? Your understanding of it is a very simple mistake.
Jesus was saying that His sacrifice was God's redemptive plan. Our willingness to accept the gift of grace is how we get to God. It's not like you're picturing it. Like walking up to a cosmic receptionist and saying "Let me see the boss." It's not that at all.
It's funny how Christians claim to KNOW what supposed "Jesus" was saying and what he meant, lol.

"Your position is ... there is a God who has an important message for mankind, and somehow he only reveals it to certain individuals who then write this down and thousands of years after this initial revelation, we have to rely on copies of copies of translations of copies by anonymous authors with no originals, and the textual testimony to a miracle, And anything that would qualify as a God would clearly understand this, and if it wanted to convey this information to people in a way that was believable, would not be relying on text to do so, and this for me is the nail in the coffin for Christianity.
The God that Christians believe in is amazingly stupid if it wants to actually achieve its goal of spreading this information to humanity by relying on text; by relying on languages that die out; by relying on anecdotal testimony.
That's not a pathway to truth!
And anything that would qualify for a God should know this, which means either that God doesn’t exist or it doesn't care enough about those people who understand the nature of evidence to actually present it. Now which of those possibilities do you think is accurate?"

“Sweden more democratic thanUSA”

Since: Jun 12

Södertälje, Sweden

#170633 Jul 2, 2013
T-Town Clown wrote:
<quoted text>I don't believe you...
hey bozo prove to us that your god exists!

“YO BOO”

Since: Sep 07

land of BOO

#170634 Jul 2, 2013
Mikko wrote:
<quoted text>
hey bozo prove to us that your god exists!
Christianity is all about grace, and grace is all about love. Because God loved us so much He allowed Jesus to be the sacrificial lamb and to die for our sins... either you believe this or not! its up to you.. It might not be for you. Its by faith not proof... Seek Jesus Christ and you will find him.. If he has to be proved to you,by someone you will never find him..

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's teapot

#170635 Jul 2, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
If the brain can make up stories like that, and the feelings are as real or more real than any other experience, why do you think your conscious rationality is less illusional? Your body is under severe stress at those times. In danger. Survival mode. Your mind should be at its peak, not daydreaming.
No one has responded as to how evolution could produce such a process.
It could be just that, the person was near to death, and they didn't die. The brain(proven to do a similar thing in very traumatic injuries), provided a comfortable environment, instead of replaying the last thing a person saw before coming close to death, such as a 60 ft plunge off a cliff, or a 100 mph car crash into a Big Rig traveling at 60 mph....over, and over, and over, and over, till consciousness is resumed.

And when you do regain consciousness, you might be insane from watching Aunt Jenny's head vaporize on impact with the CD player. Repeatedly.

While you are close to death it isn't unreasonable to think the mind places you in a waiting room, filled with numerous things drawn from the subconscious mind and memory. Either chemically induced, or chemically and subconsciously initiated, like a deep dream state. However, I wouldn't assert that's what happens.

I've mentioned this before concerning the possible evolutionary, "why", and I can envision that, if a person sustains an injury that is life threatening and they lose consciousness, there may have been those individuals that thrashed violently during that state which led to exacerbating the injuries and leading to a certain death.

So maybe that component of the brains inability in those individuals to go into "standby" - while an enthralling dream state or hallucination happened - lessened the population of those people having that trait.

I can also envision that in that same circumstance, those that did thrash around and make noises etc... were at a higher risk of predators in the area finding them(the injured person) and death occurring that way, too.

Both of those scenarios would be due to effects of a trait, and the environment, that were not a good formula for success or advancement of that trait in being advantageous to survival.

Add in thousands upon thousands of years of that natural selection process continually weeding out those that freaked in the unconscious state, and that might have led to the predominance of people who do have that trait that places the brain on "hold", until they either regain consciousness, or help arrives and they are taken back to the village tribe doctor etc... and received care and treatment. Eventually, with populations merging and genetic material shared, the "freaker gene" faded into obscurity.

Everything I just mentioned above is conjecture, speculation, and I don't know, or can't say that's what happens or happened, and that's representative of the entire state of the "NDE", no one can say that it represents anything other than a phenomenon that isn't fully understood yet.

Here's the thing, you'd have to die to know if it's actual experience or precursor to some sort of after life, and it isn't a NDE then. Is it?

Its a "DE" (death experience) at that point.

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#170636 Jul 2, 2013
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
It could be just that, the person was near to death, and they didn't die. The brain(proven to do a similar thing in very traumatic injuries), provided a comfortable environment, instead of replaying the last thing a person saw before coming close to death, such as a 60 ft plunge off a cliff, or a 100 mph car crash into a Big Rig traveling at 60 mph....over, and over, and over, and over, till consciousness is resumed.
And when you do regain consciousness, you might be insane from watching Aunt Jenny's head vaporize on impact with the CD player. Repeatedly.
While you are close to death it isn't unreasonable to think the mind places you in a waiting room, filled with numerous things drawn from the subconscious mind and memory. Either chemically induced, or chemically and subconsciously initiated, like a deep dream state. However, I wouldn't assert that's what happens.
I've mentioned this before concerning the possible evolutionary, "why", and I can envision that, if a person sustains an injury that is life threatening and they lose consciousness, there may have been those individuals that thrashed violently during that state which led to exacerbating the injuries and leading to a certain death.
So maybe that component of the brains inability in those individuals to go into "standby" - while an enthralling dream state or hallucination happened - lessened the population of those people having that trait.
I can also envision that in that same circumstance, those that did thrash around and make noises etc... were at a higher risk of predators in the area finding them(the injured person) and death occurring that way, too.
Both of those scenarios would be due to effects of a trait, and the environment, that were not a good formula for success or advancement of that trait in being advantageous to survival.
Add in thousands upon thousands of years of that natural selection process continually weeding out those that freaked in the unconscious state, and that might have led to the predominance of people who do have that trait that places the brain on "hold", until they either regain consciousness, or help arrives and they are taken back to the village tribe doctor etc... and received care and treatment. Eventually, with populations merging and genetic material shared, the "freaker gene" faded into obscurity.
Everything I just mentioned above is conjecture, speculation, and I don't know, or can't say that's what happens or happened, and that's representative of the entire state of the "NDE", no one can say that it represents anything other than a phenomenon that isn't fully understood yet.
Here's the thing, you'd have to die to know if it's actual experience or precursor to some sort of after life, and it isn't a NDE then. Is it?
Its a "DE" (death experience) at that point.
All I can say it is very fancy programming for a meat made consciousness of our assumed high order.

There seem to be some very basic flaws in the modern physics approach, and some very glaring blind spots. Let's take this BBT, which I have repeatedly said sure looks like a seed. Take that hot dense mass that poofed and created space and volume. They seem to ignore that the energy of expansion, the motion that started, is also going to have a wake behind it, especially if it is a closed system of energy. Matter as we know it is a midpoint, or resistance to that initial expansion motion, and there is a return to that wake created. Not the best description, but there has to be return to maintain the expansion, to maintain that space. It is like we are totally ignoring the other half of the circuit, which actually passes through us.

There was an imbalance of forces for that BBT to even occur. There is a lot hidden from view. Basically I am saying we are projections of energy from a source we can't see in this form.

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