Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#158233 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
"proof" really is hard for you, isn't it?
No, that's not what I said to Buck. I discussed the situation with him from the point of view of his "IF" - if we can never demonstrate abiogenesis. That was where his discussion started from.
However, as I wrote, all our sciences predict abiogenesis. Further, biochemistry and molecular biology demonstrate it's the only likely explanation - did you read Aero's excellent news piece? Moreover, the biochemists are testing possibilities.
Abiogenesis can only be proved as a way the chemical building blocks can be combined. Just another technological/chemical/physics thingy of assembling matter. Just a link in the chain back to the big bang. It can never be anything more than a possibility until you can absolutely prove there was no design going back to the big bang.

I've been emphasizing how much the big bang is like a seed sprouting. Physicist don't have a clue as to what that hot dense whatever it was was originally arranged.

I posted a link a day or so ago about seed imbibition and a youtube demo of seeds expanding. There is an energy burst required when the seed fires up. That is your heat. The expansion is that imbibition, but instead of water, it is space, or some other aspect of the universe or beyond. There was a pre-set matrix in the big bang seed.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158234 Mar 3, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
The current whale evolutionary paradigm is still not only wrong, but impossible.
Darwin may have been closer. At least he admitted he was speculating.
Nope. But please, explain how it is wrong and false with evidence.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158235 Mar 3, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
The total of evidence for abiogenesis is currently..."0".
If we wish to be more precise, it is "0.0000".
That doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen. It just means if it did, nothing in known history has provided any recognizable evidence.
That's not actually true. You're discounting all the information we have about how organic molecules form from inorganic molecules and how they self-organize. Hence variations hypotheses regarding abiogenesis can be tested.

Your biggest problem here is that your argument rests on abiogenesis not being demonstrated - it either can or cannot. But that's not how the research on it is being carried out. Rather, biochemists and molecular biologists are testing how organic molecules form, how they combine, under what circumstances, etc., to build a picture of what the pre-life environment of the earth looks like. And the knowledge of how these chemicals interact is growing.

So your position relies on the ignorance of the field and reducing it to a binary position. While the answer to the question "did live arise from non-life" can be a binary question, the research into that question is not. It's complex, multi-faceted and ongoing.

“Formerly "Richard"”

Since: Mar 12

In the beginning e=mc^2

#158236 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Nope. But please, explain how it is wrong and false with evidence.
Don't hold your breath.

BTW Hi, how's it going?

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158237 Mar 3, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
You are correct - mostly.
I think the ritualization of atheism is growing.
Look what happens at Christmas time.
Thanks.

Yeah. Ritual seems deeply human - I don't think anyone can fully get away from them. I suppose we should separate it from routine to have a qualitative understanding of human behavior, but I can't deny that many atheists seek comfort in rituals.

On of my supervisors writes about how scientists imbue their lab equipment with magic and include magical rituals in their lives - like knocking on the x-ray machine to get it to function and talking about computers as if they have cognition and emotions, etc.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158238 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
False. To say that a theory has not been disproved carries meaning in science.
Evolution the observation is fact. Evolution the theory is theory.
CHA-CHING!

Damn you.

But hey, that explanation makes a lot of sense to Redneck.

“Formerly "Richard"”

Since: Mar 12

In the beginning e=mc^2

#158239 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
That's not actually true. You're discounting all the information we have about how organic molecules form from inorganic molecules and how they self-organize. Hence variations hypotheses regarding abiogenesis can be tested.
Your biggest problem here is that your argument rests on abiogenesis not being demonstrated - it either can or cannot. But that's not how the research on it is being carried out. Rather, biochemists and molecular biologists are testing how organic molecules form, how they combine, under what circumstances, etc., to build a picture of what the pre-life environment of the earth looks like. And the knowledge of how these chemicals interact is growing.
So your position relies on the ignorance of the field and reducing it to a binary position. While the answer to the question "did live arise from non-life" can be a binary question, the research into that question is not. It's complex, multi-faceted and ongoing.
BTW Have you seen this:-
http://isohunt.com/torrents/...

I think you might enjoy it.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158240 Mar 3, 2013
*sings*

I have "Blah Blah" insurance, so person come help...

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158241 Mar 3, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
False.
Even the evolutionists allow for the possibility of seeding of DNA or microbes on earth - panspermia.
When you say "always existed", if you mean to apply that to pre-earth time, you exit the recognizable form we call "life", which is the subject of the science of evolution, and your statement has no relevance.
Further, you don't know if life always existed or not. You don't even know what "always" is.
No. Even the panspermia people accept that they're just moving back the time at which abiogenesis happened, and the location to somewhere else.

Unless you are a creationist-panspermia-ist and believe that God Created life on some other planet for some other chosen people and then it drifted here. That would be pretty ironic.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158242 Mar 3, 2013
Richardfs wrote:
<quoted text>
Don't hold your breath.
BTW Hi, how's it going?
Will you please hold your breath?

For like 10 minutes?

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158243 Mar 3, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Indoctrination is to teach to accept a set of beliefs uncritically.
You advocate teaching them that the answer is evolution, uncritically.
You advocate their indoctrination.
Your definition of indoctrination fits the teaching of religion to children.

I teach evolution and I teach my students to be critical of the scientists we read - there's lots of BS put out with the claim of evolution (like that only men "should" cheat and that women should be monogamous).

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#158244 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks.
Yeah. Ritual seems deeply human - I don't think anyone can fully get away from them. I suppose we should separate it from routine to have a qualitative understanding of human behavior, but I can't deny that many atheists seek comfort in rituals.
On of my supervisors writes about how scientists imbue their lab equipment with magic and include magical rituals in their lives - like knocking on the x-ray machine to get it to function and talking about computers as if they have cognition and emotions, etc.
What's Christmas like in Japan?

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158245 Mar 3, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
No, proof isn't a difficult concept for me. It's evidence or argument helping to establish a fact or truth.
You say abiogenesis is "the only likely explanation". This is why I say people like you are indoctrinated to think the way you do.
People like you firmly believe that abiogenesis is "the only likely explanation" and no doubt your test "results" will confirm that....
First, you took my words out of context again. I wrote "Further, biochemistry and molecular biology demonstrate it's the only likely explanation - did you read Aero's excellent news piece? Moreover, the biochemists are testing possibilities."

You misquoted me to remove my qualification - that way you don't have to argue using evidence or science against biochemistry and molecular biology but claim I made a blanket statement about truth.

Second, what part about the evidence we have from the sciences pointing to abiogenesis is indoctrination? Is there evidence that I'm ignoring? This point here is why you took my words out of context - you can't make your argument about indoctrination without removing my qualifiers. If you have to resort to dishonesty, you aren't arguing, but creating little straw men to knock down.

That, RR, makes you the indoctrinated one since you have to avoid logic and evidence to make your position. Now git me a sammich!

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158246 Mar 3, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Damn you and your logic!
Ok. I now stand damned.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#158247 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
Your definition of indoctrination fits the teaching of religion to children.
I teach evolution and I teach my students to be critical of the scientists we read - there's lots of BS put out with the claim of evolution (like that only men "should" cheat and that women should be monogamous).
Do public school evolution teachers tell junior high students to be critical of the scientists they read? No. They just teach it. The children aren't old enough or experienced enough to be critical. Default indoctrination.

As the twig is bent.

“Formerly "Richard"”

Since: Mar 12

In the beginning e=mc^2

#158248 Mar 3, 2013
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
.... talking about computers as if they have cognition and emotions, etc.
This is correct, I have often found that if I tell a computer that I am going reprogram it with a very large axe then it will work.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158249 Mar 3, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
I have a piece of glass from a beer bottle embedded in my head.
Also, a link out of a motorcycle chain.
I would get them removed, but it's a hoot to peck on them with a spoon in time with the music in clubs.
Ouch! Buck...I really think you want those removed!

“Formerly "Richard"”

Since: Mar 12

In the beginning e=mc^2

#158250 Mar 3, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Will you please hold your breath?
For like 10 minutes?
Why, don't you like to be shown up?

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158251 Mar 3, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
If I was an atheist, I'd agree with your friends. I'm not an atheist and I've spend all of maybe 5 minutes of my life on atheist websites - usually just to get a laugh.
I know...what's wrong with me?

Wait...why do you spend a lot of time bickering with atheists?
Do they try to stop any and all Buddhist or Shinto rituals? Especially those in public? Atheists do that in America a lot. They claim to be tolerant, but most of them only seem to be tolerant of people that agrees with their opinions.
Uhm...you missed my point about them actually carrying out the Buddhist and Shinto rituals. So, no, they don't.

We have a very different understanding of responsibility than you do - ours is shared, not individual. That generally leads to less outright acts of intolerance and greater social punishment for difference (with a few people, like in America, snapping).
We have a big white cross here, on Mt Rubidoux. An atheist complained about it because it sits on city property. The FFRC filed a lawsuit against Riverside to have it removed, even though the majority of Riversidians wanted the cross to stay - even one atheist friend of mine. He said the cross is meaningless to him except for bring a city landmark (it's been there since 1907). The city is selling the property to a private owner to shut up the FFRC.
Wow. You see, that's an American thing. You guys are very individualistic, with individual rights held in the highest of esteem. That lets people think "hey, that cross breaks the rules by being on government property. I want it down! My want is more important than anyone else's want!"

That just couldn't happen here. We also have a different notion of history - that historical monuments are either extremely important and must be maintained or worthless, to be destroyed in the face of modernity. I suspect the cross would stay and people would ignore, ridicule or placate the loan complainer, depending on how charismatic they were.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#158252 Mar 3, 2013
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
Sounds like being married.
What's being married like?

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