Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

[Siro]

Mikko wrote:

<quoted text>
Racist = stupid

Go and cheer on a gang rape in Malmo

[Dave Nelson]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/21/p...

Hmmmm...makes you wonder.

Was it the Church, or certain elements hiding in it that caused the transgressions against humanity over the centuries Topic atheists love to rail about?

[KittenKoder]

Siro wrote:

<quoted text>
Sounds like you pretending to be a woman.
Whos projecting now?

You are still projecting.

[Dave Nelson]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
I was dying on the operating table.

In a medical environment, with drugs, and events where you were prepared. I have also had my ass knocked out and didn't remember a damned thing. But I woke up.

There is a huge difference between chemicals, such as drugs, working on the brain and consciousness, interfering with its normal function, and the effects of a shock wave of multi-ton foot pounds passing through it suddenly. Just a whole different chemical environment.

[KittenKoder]

Dave Nelson wrote:

<quoted text>
In a medical environment, with drugs, and events where you were prepared. I have also had my ass knocked out and didn't remember a damned thing. But I woke up.
There is a huge difference between chemicals, such as drugs, working on the brain and consciousness, interfering with its normal function, and the effects of a shock wave of multi-ton foot pounds passing through it suddenly. Just a whole different chemical environment.

You are an idiot, I can't say it any nicer, you prove this every day. You read nothing of what anyone posts that's more than two lines.

[Siro]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
I was dying on the operating table.

Youre dying here too

[Dave Nelson]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
You are an idiot, I can't say it any nicer, you prove this every day. You read nothing of what anyone posts that's more than two lines.

"
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
I was dying on the operating table."

That was one line. I read it.

Care to fill us in on this event and how it shaped your existential view? I already "informed" you of the effect drugs had on it.

[Givemeliberty]

Dave is in word salad mode this morning.

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow, you really want your experience to be real so much that you are ignoring the actual science behind it. Sad.

[CunningLinguist]

Givemeliberty wrote:

Plus Christians today pick and chose what passages to pay attention to and which to ignore. Perfect word of God eh?
Lmfao!
<quoted text>

10 important questions to be asked by any rational person as a guide to the question of whether or not there is a God.

1. If logic is the hallmark that separates man from beast, why is religion then a matter of “faith”, rather than rationality?

2. If something cannot be proved, then why do people continue to believe in it?

3. If there is a God, which is the real one and how come when a culture no longer exists neither do its gods? Isis? Ra? Neptune? Zeus? Apollo? Thor? Quetzacoatle?

4. If the Christian God is monotheistic how can it also be triune with Jesus & the Holy Spirit?

5. If God was the father of Jesus via the “immaculate conception”, wasn’t Mary technically raped & impregnated against her will?

6. If Jesus was born to a mother who was unwed doesn’t that make him a bastard?

7. If “Christ died for your sins on the cross”, how much of a sacrifice was it really, considering he’s immortal?

8. Why do people continue to believe in religion’s gods when promises made for thousands of years have yet to be delivered, whereas, science has shown us the earth is NOT flat, the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around, medicine heals but prayers don’t, and although we can’t literally walk on water we can circumnavigate the globe underwater in a submarine and fly to the moon?

9. If God made the earth and then created a great flood to wipe it out, how could a perfect, infallible being make something needing to be destroyed and begun anew?

10. If God “gave his only son” to save us from our sins, then why do we have to do anything?

[Givemeliberty]

NDEs are naturally occurring phenomenons. Nothing supernatural about them Dave. Just like magnets are natural.

Dave Nelson wrote:

<quoted text>
Sorry, love. There was a very real time aspect to it. Plus you should note I analyze things in much greater detail than you. Trust me, I have analyzed the hell out it. You have just read books on it.
You would like to think you are rational and all together, but others can peer into your skull like you claim science is capable of and find physical reasons for your issues. Those issues also affect your other logic processes.
Do you really think "science", the perceptions of other beings, can tell you what is really going on in your head?
You really do have an incomplete picture of "existence", and one painted mostly from what you have read in books. You could use an experience to rattle your cage, throw all of that collection up in the air, and then be forced to put the pictures back in order. Such will reveal to you just how artificial this physical consciousness is, in particular about its belief it is in control of your existence. That control comes from a much deeper and unseeable depth in you, or something you are connected to.
My physical consciousness was turned into a fog for a long time, one filled with treachery, misunderstanding, and a lot of impersonality from the "outside" world that I had to pick through. Things occurred that never should have that revealed how and why that happened. There were physical damages that affected my normal brain processes, which were on a very high level, that I had to learn to work around. They were on such a high level that those that didn't know me thought I was above average. Those that did know me from before were aware something drastic happened to me. Be advised that I took psychiatric and mental performance tests a year later, long before I got out of the fog, that would still put me at the top for perception, mental maturity, putting things in proper order, and basic adjustment to "reality". Visual memory was the only thing that took a tremendous hit, and it was tremendous. Don't sell me short, or discount what I have to say because of what you think you understand from reading books.

[Buck Crick]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
When your brain is suffocating, which is very common when one is dying or unconscious, it hallucinates. Hallucinations are filling in gaps in the memory with the same random neural triggers that cause dreams. This doesn't actually happen in real time, it gets filled in when the brain is no longer hallucinating, when the oxygen supply is restored to a proper balance. These random neural triggers will result in imagery of a person's common notions, fanciful things they spend the majority of their time thinking about. A rational mind will then organize the imagery, often resulting in nothing being perceived. An irrational mind will fill in other sensations, like touch, taste, even emotional responses.
Look Dave, this is a very well understood phenomenon, it's not a mystery. Near death experiences are the same things junkies go through, only without the addiction.

Wrong.

NDE's are not well-understood, and have no current scientific explanation.

Your explanation offered here is of no use. NDE's bear practically no resemblance to hallucinations.

The way neuroscience deals with it is to explain certain neural correlates that take place in the brain, then claim they explained the phenomenon.

They lie, in other words.

[Givemeliberty]

The church as ordered by church leadership and not just Catholics, Protestants have plenty of blood on their hands as well.

Anything else I can school you on Mr. Senile?

Dave Nelson wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl d/2013/feb/21/pope-retired-ami d-gay-bishop-blackmail-inquiry
Hmmmm...makes you wonder.
Was it the Church, or certain elements hiding in it that caused the transgressions against humanity over the centuries Topic atheists love to rail about?

[Siro]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
You are an idiot, I can't say it any nicer, you prove this every day. You read nothing of what anyone posts that's more than two lines.

Daves post is spot on, there is a difference between being doped up on an operating table in a situation you were expecting and prepared for as opposed to being t-boned in a car smash which you were not expecting.
The body and mind reacts differently in those two situations.

And youre supposed to be all knowledgable about science and biology?
You are nothing more than a nutjob pervert with an internet connection.
Hows the speed at the library anyway?

[Buck Crick]

Dave Nelson wrote:

<quoted text>
Sorry, love. There was a very real time aspect to it. Plus you should note I analyze things in much greater detail than you. Trust me, I have analyzed the hell out it. You have just read books on it.
You would like to think you are rational and all together, but others can peer into your skull like you claim science is capable of and find physical reasons for your issues. Those issues also affect your other logic processes.
Do you really think "science", the perceptions of other beings, can tell you what is really going on in your head?
You really do have an incomplete picture of "existence", and one painted mostly from what you have read in books. You could use an experience to rattle your cage, throw all of that collection up in the air, and then be forced to put the pictures back in order. Such will reveal to you just how artificial this physical consciousness is, in particular about its belief it is in control of your existence. That control comes from a much deeper and unseeable depth in you, or something you are connected to.
My physical consciousness was turned into a fog for a long time, one filled with treachery, misunderstanding, and a lot of impersonality from the "outside" world that I had to pick through. Things occurred that never should have that revealed how and why that happened. There were physical damages that affected my normal brain processes, which were on a very high level, that I had to learn to work around. They were on such a high level that those that didn't know me thought I was above average. Those that did know me from before were aware something drastic happened to me. Be advised that I took psychiatric and mental performance tests a year later, long before I got out of the fog, that would still put me at the top for perception, mental maturity, putting things in proper order, and basic adjustment to "reality". Visual memory was the only thing that took a tremendous hit, and it was tremendous. Don't sell me short, or discount what I have to say because of what you think you understand from reading books.

Hey Dave.

Do you really expect dumbshit atheists who think you can count to infinity to understand a NDE?

Your experience likely helped shape your point of view, I would imagine. Same as it has for thousands of others.

It sure changed the atheist neurosurgeon, Eben Alexander, M.D.- "Proof of Heaven", Simon and Shuster.

[His-truth]

What About the Atheists?

When Christopher Hitchens observes that,“Religion is violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry, contemptuous of women and coercive toward children,” he is both right and wrong.

Hitchens is right because humankind is sinful and selfish. Indeed, I believe it was G.K. Chesterton who said that the one Christian doctrine that was demonstrably provable, even to casual observers, was the sinfulness and depravity of man. Thus, human expressions of the religious impulse will inevitably produce some religious practices and beliefs that would fit Hitchens’ rather grim description.

Human history is replete with such flawed expressions of religious faith.

However, this would be true of all secular philosophies and ideologies as well. Three of the most heinous and barbaric ideologies, which produced the greatest cruelties and violations of humanity in the 20th century, were fascism, Nazism and communism — all secular.

Hitchens is wrong in that he condemns all religious expression to the category of such violent and negative expressions. Many of the noblest expressions of humanity throughout the centuries have been performed in the name of religion.

One thinks of William Wilberforce and his long campaign to end the slave trade in the British Empire. Both the British and American abolitionist movements were founded, nurtured, financed and led to victory against the horrific evil of slavery by people who were most often inspired and motivated by deep religious conviction.

The great social reform movements of the last half of the 19th and the first half of the 20th century (child labor reform, etc.) were often led by people of deep religious faith, Protestant and Catholic.

And of course, in the lifetime of many of us who were born in the last half of the 20th century, the most successful and greatest reform movement was the civil rights revolution, led by a Baptist minister, Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., who often said that the movement and the faith that inspired it could not be separated.
As many will remember, the civil rights revolution was supported by and led to victory in large part because of the leadership of clergy, black and white.

Lastly, one is led to ask Mr. Hitchens some questions. Where are the great atheist-sponsored charitable and reform movements? Where are the atheist children homes and orphanages? Where are the atheist leaders who are taking vows of poverty and giving themselves in sacrificial service to others?

As Arthur C. Brooks, professor at Syracuse University, points out in his recent book, Who Really Cares?(2006): Religious people are far more generous with their own time and money than secularists. Brooks concludes,“Religious folks are by far the most charitable people in America today.”

..... Dr Richard Land = http://richardlandlive.com/archive/

[Buck Crick]

KittenKoder wrote:

<quoted text>
Wow, you really want your experience to be real so much that you are ignoring the actual science behind it. Sad.

You are not a scientist, and know nothing about it.

"Dr. Alexander's neuroscience career taught him that near-death-experiences are brain based illusions, and yet his personal experience left him dumbstruck. His honest struggle to make sense of this unforgettable journey is a gripping story, unique in the literature of spiritual experiences, that may well change how we understand our role in the universe."

-Bruce Greyson, M.D., co-editor of "The Handbook of Near Death Experiences"

Scares the shit out of you, huh?

[Siro]

Givemeliberty wrote:

The church as ordered by church leadership and not just Catholics, Protestants have plenty of blood on their hands as well.
Anything else I can school you on Mr. Senile?
<quoted text>

Yo! Iyz wants ta be a wigger gangsta lykz yo!
Can yo gibsme dat tricknology brutha?
Yo orwayz speeks da troof yo!

[KittenKoder]

Dave Nelson wrote:

<quoted text>
"
KittenKoder wrote:
<quoted text>
I was dying on the operating table."
That was one line. I read it.
Care to fill us in on this event and how it shaped your existential view? I already "informed" you of the effect drugs had on it.

You are such an idiot that you just proved what I asserted about you not reading more than two lines.

[His-truth]

Siro wrote:

<quoted text>Yo! Iyz wants ta be a wigger gangsta lykz yo! Can yo gibsme dat tricknology brutha? Yo orwayz speeks da troof yo!

a recent forum mocker / scoffer wrote:
"You're another Idiot, who likes to ignore the historical record. Witch Burning was committed by Protys...the Reformation sparked another wave...
And in the Sub-Sahara, it still goes on...which is predominately xtians and Proty... "

.... now .. lets run a little test ... did Jesus ever force anyone to put their trust and faith in him ??.. no..... Therefore .. if someone does force a person/s to "confess faith in Jesus" against their will .. is that of God's will or would it be of Satan's will ?.... the answer should be simple.

Nowhere in the New Testament is anything like forced converson (which is an intellectual & emotional impossibility anyway) ever advocated - if anything, quite the opposite is true (Rev 22:11)... you can't blame Christianity for some Satanic event that some idiot/s enact under the banner of or in the name of "God and Christianity" .... ie: The 'holy' Roman Catholic Church - KKK / Fred Phelps ... etc. etc.

[Dave Nelson]

http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/haarp/ion4.html

Scientific obfuscation and contradiction, bullshit, for the advancement of science.

Note what it does, then the claim it has no lasting effect.

Which goes totally against the laws of conservation and thermodynamics.

Pump a little hot air into a cold room and the temp increases over all due to dissipation. Keep adding and it gets warmer. You have to have something drawing the heat off to return to its original state. That drawing off just sends it somewhere else. Energy transfer is a chain reaction phenomenon on the universal scale. It is called rationalization to say you have not changed something after you change something. That, or your changing is just part of that overall universal process. Which means no "free will" as you like to perceive it.

Science is just as capable of deluding itself as any other religion.