Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

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Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.
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“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#149855
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Do muons decay?
Yes.
If so, then that implies cause...
Now,*that* is a circular argument. I claim that the decay of a muon is not caused. That is based on observation and theory. You claim otherwise. But you give no demonstration or evidence of its being caused. Essentially, you are assuming every event has a cause. And *that* is a circular argument.
Do you have another example of something that does not have a cause?
Like I said, most quantum level behavior is uncaused.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

Pittsburgh, PA

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#149856
Jan 24, 2013
 
Langoliers wrote:
<quoted text>
Was it my free will to be born?
Nope that was your parents free will
Was it my free will to be born in the 1960's?
Nope that was your parents free will
Was it my free will to be born in Pittsburgh, PA?
Nope that was your parents free will
Was it my free will to be born into the family that I was?
Nope that was your parents free will
As a child, was it my free will to attend the church that I did?
Nope, in this country you're not given that kind of free will until you reach the age of 18.(You didn't this?)
As a child, was it my free will to attend the schools that I did?
Nope that was your parents free will
Was it my free will to have the teachers that I had?
Nope that was your schools district free will to hire who they wanted.
If you were not an idiot troll, I would thank you for proving my point.

My parents did not choose me, they chose to procreate.

Unless my parents create souls, it was not their free will to make me.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#149857
Jan 24, 2013
 

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mtimber wrote:
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You are right, but your first premise was faulty...
Which should have been my point.
I stand corrected.
OK, good. We are making progress.

Now, I had previously shown that there was no life at some point in the past. I note that there is life now.

Take the *earliest* life. Either it was uncaused, or it had a cause. I discount the first possibility because life is not a quantum level phenomenon (although you might be able to argue this point---it would give another example of an uncaused event, though).

So this earliest life had a cause. That cause had to be previous to the earliest life. That means the cause could not be alive (if it were, we would have a contradiction to the *earliest* aspect). In other words, the earliest life had a non-life cause.

There are a couple of ways out of this dilemma for you:

1. Claim that the earliest life did not have a cause.

2. Claim that there was no earliest life, so life has always existed.

The first destroys your 'first cause' claim and the second is contradicted by the conditions of the early universe.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

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#149858
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Do muons decay?
If so, then that implies cause...
This is part of why I asked you for the definition of the term 'cause'. By all the definitions I have seen for that concept, the decay of a muon has no cause. Perhaps you have a different definition than usual, so I am awaiting your definition of the concept.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

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#149859
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Good response, but they won't be interested, their anti-God goggles preclude a rational consideration of the texts.
Thank you.

I realize itís hopeless but itís just down right fun to prove them wrong.

Of course thereís always a chance someone reading thatís on the fence may be persuaded.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

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#149860
Jan 24, 2013
 
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
If you were not an idiot troll, I would thank you for proving my point.
My parents did not choose me, they chose to procreate.
Unless my parents create souls, it was not their free will to make me.
Accidents do happen.

Since: Dec 11

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#149861
Jan 24, 2013
 
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
You are insinuating a women taken in captivity and married is a sex slave. I respectfully disagree.ďWithout any consentĒ is your words and those words are not in the bible in reference to this subject. A assumption on your part and not factual.
The woman is a CAPTIVE. There is no assumption needed that the process is non-consensual. "You killed my husband/father/brothers and took me as a prisoner...I'd love to marry you!"

The law even provides an instant divorce allowed if the woman does not sufficiently PLEASE him. "If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her."

If this was a consensual marriage, then why would she be considered dishonored?

This is consistent with other laws like Deut 22:28, where a man's punishment for rape is that he must marry his victim. Do you believe a woman would really want to marry her rapist and continue to have conjugal relations with him?

Or Exodus 21:7, where fathers may sell their daughters as wives (again, no consent involved).
Eagle12 wrote:
Here we find of an example where the wife to be is asked.
Having an example where the woman is asked does not nullify the examples where the women are clearly not asked.

Since: Dec 11

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#149862
Jan 24, 2013
 
mtimber wrote:
<quoted text>
Good response, but they won't be interested, their anti-God goggles preclude a rational consideration of the texts.
Ah yes, the 'rational consideration' that a woman captured by her family's murderers would consent to marriage with one of them.

The 'rational consideration' that requires we ignore all historical context of the era and the culture in which women were little more than property and men had control over women's sexuality.

Since: Sep 08

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#149863
Jan 24, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes.
<quoted text>
Now,*that* is a circular argument. I claim that the decay of a muon is not caused. That is based on observation and theory. You claim otherwise. But you give no demonstration or evidence of its being caused. Essentially, you are assuming every event has a cause. And *that* is a circular argument.
<quoted text>
Like I said, most quantum level behavior is uncaused.
Poly, the prevailing theory is that something expanded and blew a big bubble, condensing something into matter that became those particles and their derivatives, including us. The interactions of these particles keeps blowing the bubble bigger. Perhaps because redirected motion. They got to bouncing around from gravity, or the pressure on the bubble.

The universe is a container. All particles are contained in it. All of them interact via some force. These "uncaused" actions have to have a cause within this container. Each and every particle feels each other gravitationally if not electromagnetically. This works on the innards of an atom. Causes an assumed uncaused event. Virtual "particles" included.

That's the nature of the physical world. Atoms were caused by the Big Bang, not the origination of it. That is the mainstream theory.

Now, your belief that things pop out of nothing into tiny little atoms is not a far cry from apparitions appearing, or a veritable host of paranormal, or spiritual phenomenon, or interactions from a higher realm, perhaps inhabited by higher entities.

You aren't real consistent in your belief system.
Thinking

Leighton Buzzard, UK

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#149864
Jan 24, 2013
 
Your type often hide behind censorship.
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Mark, I turned in this individual to Topix yesterday.
I would love ďGivemelibertyĒ to stay but he/she will have to refrain from being abusive. I would encourage you to do the same if this individual becomes abusive.

“Michin yeoja”

Since: Oct 10

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#149865
Jan 24, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>

Q: What's white and shoots across the sky?
A: The second coming of Jesus.
So those aren't chemtrails?

*puts foil hat in storage*

Jesus is going to go blind.

Since: Sep 08

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#149867
Jan 24, 2013
 
Each and every particle or force generated by that particle ejected outwards increases the size of this universal bubble because it carries a piece of this universe with it. The motion causes it to cut a path and the path gets filled in from where it started. This universe. Those "fields" occupy "space".

Motion is THE force. Something set it all into motion.

Plants grow outward.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

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#149868
Jan 24, 2013
 
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
Funny how god ALWAYS values the free will of the child rapist/murderer over the free will of their young innocent victims. How sweet.
Yes, but if know god, you know that a sin is a sin and we are born into sin, so the little bitch had it coming!

Of course the christian doesn't want to come right out and say that, but the bible puts all the pieces out there to see.

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

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#149869
Jan 24, 2013
 
Thinking wrote:
Your type often hide behind censorship.
<quoted text>
Ignorance and censorship are their best allies! Go to just about any 'christian' YouTube and try to vote on their video or make a comment.

"Ratings are disabled for this video."

"Comments are disabled for this video."

OK, you don't want assholes leaving nasty messages, but blocking ratings? WTF? How cowardly can you be? Can't they pray to god for only positive responses? If god can cure cancer, he can certainly stop me from hitting the 'dislike' icon! LOL!

“cdesign proponentsists”

Since: Jul 09

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#149871
Jan 24, 2013
 
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Accidents do happen.
Yeah, your perfect god has made a few! LOL!

Since: Jan 13

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#149872
Jan 24, 2013
 

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Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
:-)
The typical Topix atheist will challenge you to define rationality. Then they will argue about the definition given in the dictionary, stating flatly they are free to define it for themselves as they see fit. Like the term atheism.
They do that a lot. It helps in their logic development process.
To them such is rational.
Most of the arguments I have seen are merely arbitrary claims to knowledge with no rational basis of support...

Since: Jan 13

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#149873
Jan 24, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes.
<quoted text>
Now,*that* is a circular argument. I claim that the decay of a muon is not caused. That is based on observation and theory. You claim otherwise. But you give no demonstration or evidence of its being caused. Essentially, you are assuming every event has a cause. And *that* is a circular argument.
<quoted text>
Like I said, most quantum level behavior is uncaused.
Which version of quantum theory are you presenting?

If something decays, it means it has a prior condition.

Now you can claim that such decay is evidence of a lack of a cause, but that would seem to be very illogical...

So despite this muon (which is questionable), do you have any example of anything else that does not have a cause.

Since: Jan 13

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#149874
Jan 24, 2013
 

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polymath257 wrote:
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OK, good. We are making progress.
Now, I had previously shown that there was no life at some point in the past. I note that there is life now.
Take the *earliest* life. Either it was uncaused, or it had a cause. I discount the first possibility because life is not a quantum level phenomenon (although you might be able to argue this point---it would give another example of an uncaused event, though).
So this earliest life had a cause. That cause had to be previous to the earliest life. That means the cause could not be alive (if it were, we would have a contradiction to the *earliest* aspect). In other words, the earliest life had a non-life cause.
There are a couple of ways out of this dilemma for you:
1. Claim that the earliest life did not have a cause.
2. Claim that there was no earliest life, so life has always existed.
The first destroys your 'first cause' claim and the second is contradicted by the conditions of the early universe.
Because you pre-suppose that life was caused by non-life, you have no choice but to arrive at your conclusion...

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#149875
Jan 24, 2013
 
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
This is part of why I asked you for the definition of the term 'cause'. By all the definitions I have seen for that concept, the decay of a muon has no cause. Perhaps you have a different definition than usual, so I am awaiting your definition of the concept.
Where do you get your assertion that a muon decays without any cause?

Since: Jan 13

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#149876
Jan 24, 2013
 

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Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you.
I realize itís hopeless but itís just down right fun to prove them wrong.
Of course thereís always a chance someone reading thatís on the fence may be persuaded.
That is always the hope.

Have a look at presuppositional apologetics.

Start with Sye Ten Bruggencate, then move to Dr Jason Lisle and finish with the master Greg Bahnsen.

A week with them and you will have no problem dealing with your average militant atheist...

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