Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149520 Jan 23, 2013
TheBlackSheep wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I have supplied is many times. If you don't want to read your beloved bible, I cannot help you.
Post #149367

“The bible god stated that girls who lost their virginity before marriage were to be stone or burned to death.”

Thank you, in other words you have no proof to support your claim.

Since: Sep 08

Location hidden

#149521 Jan 23, 2013
EmpAtheist wrote:
Just wanted to add..... omniscience is not a problem for free will. It seems so on the surface. Also I have seen that the Christians on here are doing a horrible job arguing that... ha... but they can win this one.
Instead of having the ability to see the future........imagine the ability to go back in time... and you knew everything your friend did that week... unless you change something, he will do everything you saw.... he was still making his own decisions
However.......... we still have a problem. God is omniscient and omnipotent. He also knows all of his own actions he will do in the future.... and although he may be perfectly happy with that and I'm sure he is. He cannot do anything different. He is not then omnipotent.. but powerless. He is obligated to do what he knows he was going to do.
Did God say he knows everything that will happen? Where is that written, and by who?

I think the story goes that physical man was let loose in the wilderness to find his own way. Maybe to return home someday. Not much sense in that if this God was so clairvoyant.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149522 Jan 23, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Of course a retard like you doesn't know what retard means. It means slow or to impede which is exactly what belief in god does to you.
For example remember how big of a retard you made out of yourself first saying your dad was this miserable brutal atheist who forced his atheism down your throat then later saying he was this wonderful sweet man who everyone adored. And not to mention your strange story about an Arab walked into his room and thy made him a Christian for some reason.
You're just too damn retarded daffy :)
<quoted text>
Again I thank you for your rude abrasiveness and said untruths mixed in with some previous statements from myself. To the regulars here on topix we have know what to expect. But to those who occasionally come in and happen to be on the fence. I think your spitefulness shows the caliber person you are and the militant atheism you represent.

My Dad, whom I loved very much was brilliant and an Atheist for most of his adult life. We had many conversations about God and atheism. He was never atrocious. He was always respectful to others of faith and never was derogatory or disrespectful.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#149523 Jan 23, 2013
Sigh again you demand scriptures and as usual when given them you will daffy run away.

Deuteronomy 22:20-21

Sad isn't it that atheists know MUCH more about the bible than you believers? Oh wait maybe that's why we're atheists!:)

You're welcome half wit.
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Post #149367
“The bible god stated that girls who lost their virginity before marriage were to be stone or burned to death.”
Thank you, in other words you have no proof to support your claim.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149524 Jan 23, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Nor any of my Russian friends including Marina who teaches the Russian language at a nearby university.
I have yet to see you make a claim as to what it means. Even Stephen King says he made the word up for his idea of mindless hairballs with lots of teeth.
Afraid someone told you wrong and you bought it. Not surprising because you bought the zombie jesus myth hook line and sinker.
<quoted text>
You have a friend? I guess miracles do happen.
christianity is EVIL

Halifax, Canada

#149525 Jan 23, 2013
EmpAtheist wrote:
Just wanted to add..... omniscience is not a problem for free will. It seems so on the surface. Also I have seen that the Christians on here are doing a horrible job arguing that... ha... but they can win this one.
Instead of having the ability to see the future........imagine the ability to go back in time... and you knew everything your friend did that week... unless you change something, he will do everything you saw.... he was still making his own decisions
However.......... we still have a problem. God is omniscient and omnipotent. He also knows all of his own actions he will do in the future.... and although he may be perfectly happy with that and I'm sure he is. He cannot do anything different. He is not then omnipotent.. but powerless. He is obligated to do what he knows he was going to do.
god told YOU this or are you just making up BS?

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#149526 Jan 23, 2013
Dave Nelson wrote:
<quoted text>
Did God say he knows everything that will happen? Where is that written, and by who?
I think the story goes that physical man was let loose in the wilderness to find his own way. Maybe to return home someday. Not much sense in that if this God was so clairvoyant.
I'm not sure that it does say god is omniscient in the bible. I'm always hearing that from Christians though. I'm simply addressing that claim.

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#149527 Jan 23, 2013
So which was it again? Was your dad this tyrant atheist who crammed his atheism down everyone's throat and was abusive or was he this wonderful sweet guy who had a charm and kind sense about him that everyone loved?

And do tell what that Arab man did to him!
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
You have a friend? I guess miracles do happen.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#149529 Jan 23, 2013
christianity is EVIL wrote:
<quoted text>
god told YOU this or are you just making up BS?
I don't believe in any gods. I don't feel obligated to defend all atheistic claims just because i am also an atheist.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149530 Jan 23, 2013
wilderide wrote:
Yet as soon as any control is ceded, omnipotence is gone.
Why do you think that?
You are contradicting yourself. God is not in control yet is in control. Which is it? If God is in control then everything is necessarily God's will, including everything you do. Thus it's impossible to go against God's will.
I didn't contradict myself, I never said God was in control, I said the just because He can be doesn't mean He is.

God is NOT in control of you, you have free will.
Omnipotence means being omniresponsible, and you can't be omnipotent but only semi-responsible. It doesn't work that way.
Peter Parker would agree with you.
No, let's look at that again:
If God knows you will do X, can you do Y instead?
In this example, you can only ultimately choose X or Y, but not both (for example, you can't turn both left and right at the same time). So if God knows you will ultimately do X, then you can only do X. You have no free will. If on the other hand you say that you could do Y instead, then God was wrong. See how that works? It's really simple if you think about it. The future is only knowable if there is fate, and if there is fate, then free will is impossible.
It's not quite that simple. You need to first try to understand what it means to be eternal & ompnipresent.

It's not that you have the choice of only X or Y, you have the choice of X, Y, Z, 123, LMNOP, WS66Rbd8........

It's up to you. God can see what you are going to do, that deosn't mean He's controlling what you do, that's not what He does. If He did, nobody would disbelieve.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149531 Jan 23, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
Doesn't the flood story undermine the claim that God is benevolent? In that story, God doesn't seem to know that when it made humans it made them flawed, then decided to kill them all except for one family, and afterward humans were still flawed. God is hardly portrayed as either omnipotent or even omniscient. Doesn't God know the consequences of it's actions? Because if it does, then it's actions are pretty much evil.
God's actions are not evil. He is incapable of evil & He is not accountable for fallability like humans are.

It is human arrogance that portrays God's actions as "evil". He knows what he's doing.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149532 Jan 23, 2013
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
You believe in god because you are unable to cope with your own mortality due to fear.
No, I don't.

But thanks for guessing. You'll make a great scientist.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#149533 Jan 23, 2013
Aerobatty wrote:
<quoted text>
You fear hell.
No I don't.

Do you?

Since: Mar 11

Lexington, KY

#149534 Jan 23, 2013
Slavery, rape and putting every infant to the sword isn't evil?
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
God's actions are not evil. He is incapable of evil & He is not accountable for fallability like humans are.
It is human arrogance that portrays God's actions as "evil". He knows what he's doing.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149535 Jan 23, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
Sigh again you demand scriptures and as usual when given them you will daffy run away.
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
Sad isn't it that atheists know MUCH more about the bible than you believers? Oh wait maybe that's why we're atheists!:)
You're welcome half wit.
<quoted text>
The scripture you referenced doesn’t say that any woman who is not a virgin should be stoned.

You only took a small portion of the scripture that does not tell the entire story.

This scripture you referenced is about a dispute resolution as a result of a married man making the claim his wife was not a virgin when he married her. Such accusations are a result of two people who are obviously not getting along. Or the possibility he married the town whore and no longer loves her.

Deuteronomy 22:12-21
Amplified Bible (AMP)

13.“If any man takes a wife and goes in to her, and then scorns her”

14.“And charges her with shameful things and gives her an evil reputation, and says, I took this woman, but when I came to her, I did not find in her the tokens of a virgin,”

[Tokens of Virginity is a cloth with blood discharge from a virgin first intercourse. It is kept by the married woman’s parents as proof their daughter was a virgin].

15. Then the father of the young woman, and her mother, shall get and bring out the tokens of her virginity to the elders of the city at the gate.

16. And her father shall say to the elders, I gave my daughter to this man as wife, but he hates and spurns her;

17. And behold, he has made shameful charges against her, saying, I found not in your daughter the evidences of her virginity. And yet these are the tokens of my daughter’s virginity. And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city,

18. And the elders of that city shall take the man and rebuke and whip him.

19. And they shall fine him 100 shekels of silver and give them to the father of the young woman, because he has brought an evil name upon a virgin of Israel. And she shall be his wife; he may not divorce her all his days.

20. But if it is true that the evidences of virginity were not found in the young woman,

21. Then they shall bring her to the door of her father’s house and the men of her city shall stone her to death, because she has wrought [criminal] folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.

[All of this depends on a accusation coming forth from the husband]

Verse 25, 26. When a woman lost her virginity by rape. In such cases the woman is not stoned.

25.“But if a man finds the betrothed maiden in the open country and the man seizes her and lies with her, then only the man who lay with her shall die.”

26.“But you shall do nothing to the young woman; she has committed no sin punishable by death, for this is as when a man attacks and slays his neighbor,”

Now verse 28, 29 deals with premarital sex. Catching a couple in the act of fornication.

28. If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not betrothed, and he seizes her and lies with her and they are found,

29. Then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife, because he has violated her; he may not divorce her all his days.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#149536 Jan 23, 2013
Givemeliberty wrote:
And unlike you I have real friends not imaginary ones like god! Zing!
You're too slow retard! I'm going circles around you backwards and you still can't catch up!
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahah a!
Hey retard! Tell us again how the bible lied about it being a serpent in the garden of Eden! That is a classic daffy screw up!
<quoted text>
You have been reported.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149537 Jan 23, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Why do you think that?
<quoted text>
I didn't contradict myself, I never said God was in control, I said the just because He can be doesn't mean He is.
God is NOT in control of you, you have free will.
If God is omnipotent, then God is in total control. If God cedes any control, then God is not omnipotent. It's really that easy. If God is omnipotent, then everything is necessarily God's will and the result of God's control. Your idea of God allowing things to happen without it's consent or intervention makes no sense. At the very least God condones everything that happens, because otherwise it would not happen. You can't go against the will of an omnipotent being. Which is exactly what makes evil problematic for Christianity. Evil must exist with God's consent, else it would not exist. Or unless evil is more powerful than God, in which case God is not omnipotent. If God is omnipotent, and evil does exist, then God is responsible for evil. Simple as that.
It's not quite that simple. You need to first try to understand what it means to be eternal & ompnipresent.
Omnipresent? Then God exists in Hell too, right?
It's not that you have the choice of only X or Y, you have the choice of X, Y, Z, 123, LMNOP, WS66Rbd8........
It's up to you. God can see what you are going to do, that deosn't mean He's controlling what you do, that's not what He does. If He did, nobody would disbelieve.
You are missing the point. You cannot ultimately do everything simultaneously. If God knows what you will ultimately do, then you cannot do otherwise.

If God knows you will do X, can you do something else instead?

If so, then God was wrong, and is neither omnipotent nor omniscient.

If not, then you have no free will.

See how that works now?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149538 Jan 23, 2013
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
If anything, I'm of the 'shut up and calculate' viewpoint on QM. As far as I can see, most of the philosophies of QM fail because they attempt to explain QM based on classical ideas and that is exactly the wrong way around. You explain the *old* theory by using the *new* one.
<quoted text>
I am neither affirming nor denying such. All of the following are possible given our current state of knowledge:
1) The universe has no cause.
2) The universe has multiple causes.
3) The universe has a single cause.
4) The concept of causality is meaningless when applied to the universe.
Of the four, the last seems most likely, followed by the first two.
Do you allow that the single cause can be something outside of our normal experience of time energy and matter?

Since: Jan 13

Location hidden

#149539 Jan 23, 2013
Pat wrote:
<quoted text>
No god argument is logically plausible until it can describe the method by which things were created. Magic is not a valid basis for anything.
So you argue that events can only happen when you can comprehend them?

So abiogenesis and the big bang didn't happen then?

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#149540 Jan 23, 2013
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
God's actions are not evil. He is incapable of evil & He is not accountable for fallability like humans are.
It is human arrogance that portrays God's actions as "evil". He knows what he's doing.
God cannot be incapable of anything, or else God cannot be omnipotent.

If you say God is omnipotent and omniscient, and God created everything including humans, then of course God is responsible for humans and any flaws they may have, and should have known in advance of creating *anything* what the consequences and ramifications were to be. How could it be otherwise?

Thus, if evil exists, it is with the complicity of God, who is therefore responsible for it. How can God be omnipotent but only semi-responsible? For God to escape blame for evil, God cannot be responsible for it, and therefore could not have created it, which means God did not create everything, and is not as powerful as evil, or else God could overcome it, and would do so if evil were against God's will. Your God, free from blame, cannot be omnipresent, omnipotent, or omniscient. This was figured out long ago in ancient Greece by Epicurus:

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

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