Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

Since: Sep 08

Westcliffe, CO

#139545 Nov 20, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>And you think that any of these examples support the notion that the universe is conscious because we are conscious?
I'm getting kinda tired of this string of conversation. You seem to think that everyone else should be seeing these strange connections you make, and that since they are so "obvious," you needn't provide any evidence for them.
Also, I'm quite sure bees and ants do not have a "mass mind", at least in the traditional definition of the word mind. They just are good at communicating.
You like to claim a knowledge of science as a basis for your "non-commitment" to a religion or belief in a supernatural entity. I probably have much more experience dealing with EM and some other applied sciences than you. Plus the working with transducers involved in those technologies. Of course I will see things at a glance you wouldn't even be aware of. The difference between reading about something and working with something.

Look at the sky. That is light you see. That is energy and information packed in the flow of it. Live wires.

Ever use an infrared remote? Yes you have. Ever used a solar powered device. Yes you have. Those cross distances with no direct material connection. Voyager is sending telemetry, coded EM emissions, from the edge of the solar system. We are in contact with it. It's power is less than what a 50 bulb Christmas light mini-light string uses. Less than 25 watts. A long damned ways out there. That telemetry can be hooked up to drive devices of as much power as you can provide on this planet via electrical and magnetic means. Electrical leverage.

Trust me, there are objects up in that sky that produce much stronger bursts of EM energy than that simple little radio transmitter coded to our particular specifications. Every light you see up there, and emissions you don't see, are impacting you to some degree. Even if it is 13 billion years old. You are a transducer of that energy coupled with energy produced within you and emanating from this planet. You are part, at least every single tiny bit of atomic matter within you, of that vast circuitry. PERIOD. ABSOLUTE FACT.

Oh, and so is that Voyager that we designed. And those little molecules of EM info we as a species share that assembles us.

So, I am glad that being a slave to the universe and its workings does not bother you.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#139546 Nov 20, 2012
Clementia wrote:
<quoted text>
It's better to be an empathetic atheist, than a heartless believer!!
I'm an apathetic atheist.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#139547 Nov 20, 2012
Clementia wrote:
What the.....! But he said that's not christian law?
Old Testament so it's not Christian, eh? But Christians follow TOT.

Since: Nov 12

Location hidden

#139548 Nov 20, 2012
Clementia wrote:
I've heard of magic beans, but never cool beans. Is that something they say in the land of the Croco_Duck?
LOL! Are you American? It's a saying that means "neat".

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#139549 Nov 20, 2012
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll miss it. I have to go back to the U.S. tomorrow. Culture shock, again.
Well, good luck with the US. I hope you're ok.

“Why does my ignorance”

Since: Mar 11

justify your deity?

#139550 Nov 20, 2012
timn17 wrote:
<quoted text>I don't know. I don't understand what the trolls get out of spewing bile all day. It's sad. If they wanted to be a good representative of their faith, they would behave like a human being and not an angry, delusional 12 year old.
That's true. These people aren't sane or thoughtful. They clearly aren't in touch with a perfectly moral being.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#139551 Nov 20, 2012
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm an apathetic atheist.
You're an empathetic apathetic atheist.
Carrie

London, Canada

#139552 Nov 20, 2012
Feel free to join this group and discuss faith with others from different backgrounds

http://www.facebook.com/groups/debatefaith

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#139553 Nov 20, 2012
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>He'll tell you that the word is SERVANT and that is different for the word SLAVE. However the condition remain, one human OWNING another. Give me a moment and I'll post the exact passage about God endorsing slavery.
Slavery- wiki

Slavery predates written records and has existed in many cultures. The number of slaves today remains as high as 12 million to 27 million. Most are debt slaves, largely in South Asia, who are under debt bondage incurred by lenders, sometimes even for generations. Human trafficking is primarily used for forcing women and children into sex industries.
----------

Every continent in the world has had or participated in slavery going back before record keeping. You try to make it seem it originated with Gods people in the bible. The Jewish people themselves were slaves. A point you refuse to make because they donít believe it. Saying thereís no evidence.

I guess not, you canít see evidence if your wearing blinders. How convenient you choose to bring up the scripture that the Jews owned slaves. Painting God as if he is some kind of monster. Slavery was common place for much of world history.

Jewish slaves had a statue of limitations. Meaning a short duration of only 7 years. Thatís probably the most lenient standard among all world slave holders. Other places it was slaves for life and never any freedom.

Even in the animal kingdom there are animals that enslave other species. Now donít confuse me with taking the side of slavery. Iím just saying in world history it was a way of life and still is in some places.

You Atheist donít bring up the fact that slavery is on going today. Nor do you wish to devote any effort in trying to eliminate it worldwide. This includes child slavery. A lot products that make it to the shelves of your hometown were made by slaves.

How astute of you to ignore this fact and paint the Jews and the Judeo Christian God as cruel and heartless. Just google "child slavery today," and see what comes up.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#139554 Nov 20, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>

Believe that Leviticus is a record of Levite laws, not Christian laws.
LIAR
Is Leviticus a rich resource for spiritual growth or a rusty relic to be tossed aside and ignored? Why should Christians be interested in this Old Testament book? It has been written and often stated that no single book in the Bible is less read than the Book of Leviticus. What is so interesting, however, is that the Book of Leviticus quotes the words of God more than any book in the Bible. For this reason, it can't be boring, for who among us would dare to call God boring, and therefore must surely be of value to Christians today. The challenge is to unlock this wonderful book in a way that allows one to see the value, the purpose and the blessings found on these sacred pages. Leviticus is God's picture book. When read, meditated upon and approached with intent to see spiritual ideas, Leviticus unlocks and portrays, in a picture format, many Christian principles taught in the New Testament. If the old saying is true that "a picture is worth a thousand words" then Leviticus should be a book all Christians eagerly read and study for it is certainly full of word pictures valuable to all.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#139555 Nov 20, 2012
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
The laws in Leviticus were originally written for the Levites. In fact, "Leviticus" comes from Greek which means "relating to Levites".
I'm not sure why it was decided to leve it in the bible. Maybe for historical preservation? I don't know.
But I do know that it's a historical record of Levite laws, NOT Christian laws.
You are TOO FUNNY, do you realize how much time and energy you expend denying the facts concerning your beliefs. Catholics aren't Christians, or is it Christians aren't Catholics, I've loss track of your foolishness. When slavery in the bible is brought up, you first deny it, then when cornered say it means servants instead of slaves, when that fallacy collapses on you, you claim anything but the KJV is NOT translated properly. Now you claim Leviticus is NOT the word of God, but can't square with the fact that it's in the bible. Actually the book of Leviticus is the unadulterated WORD of God as dictated to Moses on Mount Sinai.

You completely deny the validity of any and all science, you refuse to accept the facts concerning not only your holy book, but your religion in general. You live in a very curious world don't you!!!

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#139556 Nov 20, 2012
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text> LIAR
Is Leviticus a rich resource for spiritual growth or a rusty relic ,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_wo...

Slavery is a word which immediately conjures up very specific images in our minds.

When it is mentioned we tend to think of people, almost always black people; degraded, abused and bound in chains, and we tend to think of such images, and the word slavery itself, as belonging to another era.
We do not see slavery as belonging to our world, not as something which is still happening today.

Yet the truth is that if William Wilberforce were alive today and he travelled to different parts of the world - not just in Africa, but also in large parts of Asia, the Middle East, South America and even parts of Europe - he would find children living in conditions and circumstances which Wilberforce would understand and which I am sure he would describe as slavery. It is believed there are nearly nine million children around the world today who are enslaved.

There are international charters and covenants which try to come to a legal definition of what constitutes slavery.
In essence these documents define slavery in the modern world as a situation where a human being and their labour are owned by others, and where that person does not have the freedom to leave and is forced into a life which is exploitative, humiliating and abusive.

'Sexual slavery'
One of the characters in the film I have made for the BBC is Dalyn, a young girl from Cambodia, who after years of counselling and therapy was able and willing to talk to us about how she was sold into sexual slavery in a brothel when she was 12 years old.
Dalyn represents just one of the estimated 1.2 million children that the International Labour Organisation believes are trafficked every year.
Tricked and forced into prostitution, Dalyn spent much of her time locked in a cage with others underneath a brothel - starved, beaten and threatened at gun point until she agreed to service clients.

Unregulated industry
Then there is the gentle and sweet 12-year-old boy Mawulehawe from Ghana, who is sold by his mother to a fishing "master".
Far from being the sadistic and immoral person you would expect, master Aaron is friendly and completely open about what he does and his motives.

Mawulehawe sits and listens as he is haggled over, eventually being sold for £25 ($48).
Many people will be shocked and horrified by such a figure. How can anyone, let alone a mother, put a price on a child's head?
But £25 in Mawulehawe's village is the equivalent of two months salary for a local teacher, or enough water to meet the needs of a family of six for over three months.
In selling him to a fishing master, his relatives believe that far from being sold into anything approximating slavery, Mawulehawe is being given an apprenticeship, a chance for him to learn a trade.

But of course, not all fishing masters are as seemingly caring and gentle as Aaron. Many of the boys which Mawulehawe eventually joins, tell of the beatings, the dangers of diving to loosen trapped nets and the fatalities in this utterly unregulated industry.

Forced to beg
Nearly three thousand miles away in Saudi Arabia, six-year-old Ali was picked up by the authorities for begging on the streets of Jeddah.

He was smuggled into Saudi Arabia from Yemen for this purpose.
Ali says he ended up begging after being beaten with a metal wire when he said he did not want to beg all day.
Ali is one of thousands of Yemeni children sold to gangs and forced to beg each year.
Many of these children smuggled over the border are often sold by families who are duped into believing their offspring will get a better life.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#139557 Nov 20, 2012
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>He'll tell you that the word is SERVANT and that is different for the word SLAVE. However the condition remain, one human OWNING another. Give me a moment and I'll post the exact passage about God endorsing slavery.
I guess you will my good Doctor but you will fail to mention slavery of today. Instead you focus on the Judeo Christian God that set up a statue of limitations on a slave.

If slavery was really a issue with you and your fellow Atheist. You would say something and do something about modern slavery. But you donít, itís too much of a bother. It much more down your ally to talk about what happened 4000 years ago versus today.

You always like to skip over the part that Jews were slaves. Not just once but many times in history including in WWII. Another fact that seems to slip past you in your annotations. At least Doctor since you like to paint God as evil, at least be more objective and tell the whole story.

“Indulgences for Sale”

Since: Dec 09

Vaticano, Roma, Italia

#139558 Nov 20, 2012
I feel true love.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#139559 Nov 20, 2012
Letís do talk about slavery. It seems to me that man is far more evil that God. When slavery comes up here on topix. This is never mentioned. As Atheist paint God as evil they donít bother to talk about slavery in the last 100 years.

Wiki:

Comfort women are girls and women who were forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese military during World War II.

Estimates vary as to how many women were involved, with numbers ranging from as low as 20,000 from some Japanese scholarsto as high as 410,000 from some Chinese scholars,but the exact numbers are still being researched and debated. A majority of the women were from Korea, China, Japan and the Philippines, although women from Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia and other Japanese-occupied territories were used for military "comfort stations". Stations were located in Japan, China, the Philippines, Indonesia, then Malaya, Thailand, then Burma, then New Guinea, Hong Kong, Macau, and what was then French Indochina.

Young women from countries under Japanese Imperial control were abducted from their homes. In many cases, women were also lured with promises of work in factories or restaurants. Once recruited, the women were incarcerated in "comfort stations" in foreign lands. Other women were rounded up at gunpoint, some being raped before being herded into "comfort stations".A Dutch government study described how the Japanese military itself recruited women by force in the Dutch East Indies. Some "comfort stations" were run by private agents supervised by the Japanese Army or run directly by the Japanese Army.

Some Japanese, such as historian Ikuhiko Hata, deny that there was organized forced recruitment of comfort women by the Japanese government or military. Other Japanese historians, using the testimony of ex-comfort women and surviving Japanese soldiers have argued that the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy were either directly or indirectly involved in coercing, deceiving, luring, and sometimes kidnapping young women throughout Japan's occupied territories.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#139560 Nov 20, 2012
More about modern slavery. More facts that seem to slip through the hands of Atheist.

Wiki:

The use of forced labour in Nazi Germany and throughout German-occupied Europe during World War II took place on an unprecedented scale. It was a vital part of the German economic exploitation of conquered territories. It also contributed to the mass extermination of populations in German-occupied Europe. The Nazi Germans abducted approximately 12 million people from almost twenty European countries; about two thirds of whom came from Eastern Europe. Many workers died as a result of their living conditions, mistreatment, malnutrition, or became civilian casualties of war. At its peak the forced labourers comprised 20% of the German work force. Countings deaths and turnover, about 15 million men and women were forced labourers at one point or another during the war.

The liberation of Germany in 1945 freed 11 million foreigners, called "displaced persons"óchiefly forced labourers and POWs. In addition to POWs, the Germans had seized 2.8 million Soviet workers to labour in factories in Germany. Returning them home was a high priority for the Allies. However, in the case of Russians and Ukrainians, returning often meant suspicion, prison, or death. The United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration (UNRRA), Red Cross, and military operations provided food, clothing, shelter, and assistance in returning home. In all, 5.2 million foreign workers and POWs were repatriated to the Soviet Union, 1.6 million to Poland, 1.5 million to France, and 900,000 to Italy, along with 300,000 to 400,000 each to Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Hungary, and Belgium.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#139561 Nov 20, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
Slavery- wiki
Slavery predates written records and has existed in many cultures. The number of slaves today remains as high as 12 million to 27 million. Most are debt slaves, largely in South Asia, who are under debt bondage incurred by lenders, sometimes even for generations. Human trafficking is primarily used for forcing women and children into sex industries.
----------
Every continent in the world has had or participated in slavery going back before record keeping. You try to make it seem it originated with Gods people in the bible. The Jewish people themselves were slaves. A point you refuse to make because they donít believe it. Saying thereís no evidence.
I guess not, you canít see evidence if your wearing blinders. How convenient you choose to bring up the scripture that the Jews owned slaves. Painting God as if he is some kind of monster. Slavery was common place for much of world history.
Jewish slaves had a statue of limitations. Meaning a short duration of only 7 years. Thatís probably the most lenient standard among all world slave holders. Other places it was slaves for life and never any freedom.
Even in the animal kingdom there are animals that enslave other species. Now donít confuse me with taking the side of slavery. Iím just saying in world history it was a way of life and still is in some places.
You Atheist donít bring up the fact that slavery is on going today. Nor do you wish to devote any effort in trying to eliminate it worldwide. This includes child slavery. A lot products that make it to the shelves of your hometown were made by slaves.
How astute of you to ignore this fact and paint the Jews and the Judeo Christian God as cruel and heartless. Just google "child slavery today," and see what comes up.
And you seemed to miss the point here. Yes, I fully recognize that slavery has been part of our species history, and it's still immoral for one human bin g to OWN another. The bible is the word of God, in this bible your God CONDONES slavery. he gives instructions as to how to BUY slaves, how they are to be treated, how they are to be MARKED as your property, and the conditions under which they may be freed. You are right however, Jewish slaves has a service limitation of seven years, after which they could go free, that is unless the Master held his loved ones hostage. If a slaves married and had children while being a slave, he could go free, but the wife and children stayed as property of the slave owner. He could elect to remain with his family and at that point was MARKED as the slave owners property for life, by having his head held against a door and an awl driven through he ear.

You invoke to infamous argument for God condoning slavery, that being that the slave had a limitation on how long he could be held as a slave. BUT.....if the slave was a non-jew, a foreigner , he could be held for life, and worse, his children could be part of the slave owners inheritance to his children thereby condemning generations to slavery.

The very short conversation goes something like this; It makes no difference that slavery was common place world-wide and still is now, it is immoral for one human being to own another, and your God see's nothing wrong with this immorality, and neither does your prince of peace Jesus.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#139562 Nov 20, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
Letís do talk about slavery. It seems to me that man is far more evil that God. When slavery comes up here on topix. This is never mentioned. As Atheist paint God as evil they donít bother to talk about slavery in the last 100 years.
Wiki:
Comfort women are girls and women who were forced into sexual slavery by the Japanese military during World War II.
Estimates vary as to how many women were involved, with numbers ranging from as low as 20,000 from some Japanese scholarsto as high as 410,000 from some Chinese scholars,but the exact numbers are still being researched and debated. A majority of the women were from Korea, China, Japan and the Philippines, although women from Thailand, Vietnam, Malaysia, Taiwan, Indonesia and other Japanese-occupied territories were used for military "comfort stations". Stations were located in Japan, China, the Philippines, Indonesia, then Malaya, Thailand, then Burma, then New Guinea, Hong Kong, Macau, and what was then French Indochina.
Young women from countries under Japanese Imperial control were abducted from their homes. In many cases, women were also lured with promises of work in factories or restaurants. Once recruited, the women were incarcerated in "comfort stations" in foreign lands. Other women were rounded up at gunpoint, some being raped before being herded into "comfort stations".A Dutch government study described how the Japanese military itself recruited women by force in the Dutch East Indies. Some "comfort stations" were run by private agents supervised by the Japanese Army or run directly by the Japanese Army.
Some Japanese, such as historian Ikuhiko Hata, deny that there was organized forced recruitment of comfort women by the Japanese government or military. Other Japanese historians, using the testimony of ex-comfort women and surviving Japanese soldiers have argued that the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy were either directly or indirectly involved in coercing, deceiving, luring, and sometimes kidnapping young women throughout Japan's occupied territories.
I thought your position was that a god created man. Are you saying this is Eve's fault in a round about way? Either way, if a god created man, then how is it man's fault?
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#139563 Nov 20, 2012
Eagle12 wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess you will my good Doctor but you will fail to mention slavery of today. Instead you focus on the Judeo Christian God that set up a statue of limitations on a slave.
If slavery was really a issue with you and your fellow Atheist. You would say something and do something about modern slavery. But you donít, itís too much of a bother. It much more down your ally to talk about what happened 4000 years ago versus today.
You always like to skip over the part that Jews were slaves. Not just once but many times in history including in WWII. Another fact that seems to slip past you in your annotations. At least Doctor since you like to paint God as evil, at least be more objective and tell the whole story.
And exactly what is it that you do in your everyday life to combat slavery as it exists today?

You keep trying to divert the conversation away from your immoral God, why is that? I think you know what I saw is true, and are so embarrassed by the fact that your Gods endorses one human owning another, that you try and steer the conversation away from my main point. In Seaman's terms it's called tacking.

My original conversation was not about the history of slavery, or that the Japanese and Germans had slaves, it was about one single issue, your god of the bible giving instructions o how one human could keep another as a slave. From your posts it appears as though your God is not alone in the slavery business.

“In the beginning God Created..”

Since: Feb 12

Southern Illinois

#139564 Nov 20, 2012
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>And you seemed to miss the point here. Yes, I fully recognize that slavery has been part of our species history, and it's still immoral for one human bin g to OWN another. The bible is the word of God, in this bible your God CONDONES slavery. he gives instructions as to how to BUY slaves, how they are to be treated, how they are to be MARKED as your property, and the conditions under which they may be freed. You are right however, Jewish slaves has a service limitation of seven years, after which they could go free, that is unless the Master held his loved ones hostage. If a slaves married and had children while being a slave, he could go free, but the wife and children stayed as property of the slave owner. He could elect to remain with his family and at that point was MARKED as the slave owners property for life, by having his head held against a door and an awl driven through he ear.
You invoke to infamous argument for God condoning slavery, that being that the slave had a limitation on how long he could be held as a slave. BUT.....if the slave was a non-jew, a foreigner , he could be held for life, and worse, his children could be part of the slave owners inheritance to his children thereby condemning generations to slavery.
The very short conversation goes something like this; It makes no difference that slavery was common place world-wide and still is now, it is immoral for one human being to own another, and your God see's nothing wrong with this immorality, and neither does your prince of peace Jesus.
My good Doctor I didnít miss the point. You failed to bring up the fact that slavery was common place during the time in every culture in the world. When I say common place Iím talking about it being a legal practice. But how nice of you to just zero in on just the Judeo Christian God. While every other culture practiced it.

Your purpose was to slander and demean the Word of God without being fully objective on the subject matter. Times change, people change, laws change. There is no denying it was a regulated practice in the Bible. The Bible doesnít hold back the ugly.

It has told about the sinful ways of people and nations. Even the Biblical Leaders such as King David. It has told about the wickedness he did. Murder, adultery, conspiracy, killing a Army Officer. The Bible didnít hide those facts. It just told it like it is.

I think Doctor your bias is too overwhelming and you miserably fail at being objective. One sided, Always you are one sided. This is why Iím responding so the world can see the other side of the truth. The other side you donít want to tell.

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