Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 255481 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#125420 Sep 25, 2012
Eye Heart Jesus wrote:
<quoted text>
I guess what u r saying, with your arrogant, bigot-minded assumption, is that everyone who is not as 'highly educated' in science as you does not have the capacity to understand life?
If you want to understand the processes of life, you should at least know some biochemistry. That generally requires some organic chemistry and some general chemistry. In addition, you should probably know some physical chemistry (to better understand issues of entropy and activation energies).

Yes, if you do not have at least a grounding in these topics, you cannot understand the processes of life. Sorry to break this to you, but ignorance is no excuse.
Did YOU compose all those experiments?? Are YOU verifying that everything in The text books is absolute truth??
Nobody does *all* of the experiments backing up their subject. But science students typically do enough to show that the principles are correct.
So u read a coupe books and did some philological research. Who's to say I didn't??
Your blatant ignorance of the science shows you didn't comprehend any science you read. perhaps you should go take a directed course?
Not everything revolves around what other people say or think. We all have a mind of our own... For a reason.
Of course. But it is crucial for reason to have the basic facts and assumptions. If you do not know what entropy is, don't argue about it. if you don't know how to correctly calculate probabilities, don't use arguments based on such calculations. If you don't know relativity and quantum mechanics and the evidence for them, don't argue that they don't make sense to you.

What we have found through long, hard experience is that logic alone is not enough to learn about the world. That was the fundamental mistake of the middle ages: that we could know about the universe while never actually observing the universe. Another hard won lesson is that we have to try to show our ideas are *wrong*, not simply attempt to prove them. Confirmation bias is too easy to fall into. It is those ideas that survive after people attempt to show them wrong again and again and fail that are worthy of being accepted. Another aspect of this is that only ideas about the world that can actually be tested (in the sense that there is some test that could show them wrong if they are) are acceptable for true investigation.

So here's a question: what evidence would, if it could be found, show that your idea of a deity is wrong? If you cannot produce *one* test, then the whole idea can be discarded as useless for knowledge.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#125421 Sep 25, 2012
Eye Heart Jesus wrote:
<quoted text>
My point exactly... And in your case, the theories u cling to are illogical and highly improbably to the degree of impossible.
My 'theory' has a solid foundation and explanation for all life. Many Scientists regretably admit to claiming there must be an intelligent designer behind life.
So... Why r u so biased towards atheism?
Why do u so pig-heatedly reject theism completely?!
Hypocrite
Show me this claim in *any* peer-reviewed scientific journal. Say, Science, or Nature, or Physical Review, or any other such journal.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#125423 Sep 25, 2012
Eye Heart Jesus wrote:
<quoted text>
Says the circular- reasoning bigot who contradicts himself, saying nothing can exist or operate out of time. Ok, genius, how did we get here? Time had to start somewhere.. Otherwise, by default, we must suppose time extends back to eternity.
One possibility is that time started about 13.7 billion years ago. Another is that it goes infinitely back into the past. We cannot at this point test between the two.

You discount the possibility of time going infinitely into the past, when that is a quite valid option.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#125426 Sep 25, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
Er...you don't understand how science works. Theories are not provable. The theory of gravity remains a theory. The germ theory of disease remains a theory. The theory of evolution enjoys about the most evidence for any theory - we can measure evolution directly in the lab, in breeding populations in the wild, through genetic analyses of ancient bones and compare them to extant species.

Science is driven by disproof. A scientist makes a hypothesis - a testable relationship between two or more variables - and then tries to disprove it. If it cannot be disproved, it's supported. Hypotheses that are supported over and over again demonstrate relationships between phenomena. These are unified through theory - a model for explaining how a related set of phenomena work.
The theory of evolution unifies all biological sciences and provides a framework to understanding all biological phenomena. No scientist ever talks of "proving" their hypotheses or theories. It's never done.

So when you say "you don't have proof of X theory," you just sound ignorant. You quite clearly don't know the first thing about science and you make it painfully obvious.

Hence your opinion on all things science is quite worthless.
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Thanks for writing all of that out.
You know, honestly, this time I did it with slumped shoulders. I stared at the screen for long while thinking "why should I bother?" Eye Heart here - is it possible to grow from such a position of ignorance? I don't think so. Of all the Creationists on here, only Eagle12 has come out and said "you convinced me of microevolution." It was as far as he could go, given his indoctrination and lack of education in bio-science, yet almost unbelievable, unreachable intellectual growth compared to short earth creationists.

And so the words just wouldn't come. After some force, I got it out. I seriously doubt Eye Heart will learn from it - did you see RiverSide's answer? Pure idiocy.

I apologize for this, but I'm glad they're not from my country :) How disheartening! We don't have this kind of ignorance in Japan. Different kinds, for sure, but not like this.

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#125427 Sep 25, 2012
Eye Heart Jesus wrote:
<quoted text>
Well, u obviously quit ahead of the game and let your arrogant selfishness get the best of u.
We all go through these stages... Call it 'spiritual evolution' if u will.
Look deeper. Seek and ye shall find.
If u are lOoking for a material, empirically defined God... You've already lost.
God is beyond all human mental capacity... That's what makes Him God.
Take a few extra steps out of your atheist comfort bubble... And realize that man isn't the be all and end all of the universe.
Well, duh. We live on one very small planet orbiting a rather ordinary star among hundreds of billions in a largish galaxy among hundreds of billions of galaxies that we know. No, we are hardly the 'be all and end all' of the universe. We could easily disappear tomorrow and the universe as a whole would be unaffected.
Who do u think u r?? Because something is beyond your scope of understanding or scientific grasp, u have the presumptuousness to completely denounce it?
No. But when it derives from the already discarded superstitions of the past, when it provides no observable and testable consequences, and when it goes against the vast majority of science done in the past 400 years,*then* I think it fair to denounce it *as science*. In addition, when it promotes bigotry and ignorance, when it consistently holds back the progress of knowledge and the development of real moral feelings, when it supports and comforts those who are attempting to ruin our educational system, then I will denounce it as wrong for society also.
Science isn't the end all and be all... There is only so much u can empirically evaluate. It is obvious that there is much out of the realm of science that can be grasped... Scientists are coming to terms with this... As hard as they try to fight it.
It's ok dude.... It's ok... Just .... Let... GO.
Science is not everything. There is art, poetry, literature, love, compassion, music, food, hiking, swimming, walking, etc, etc, etc. These are crucial to the well-being of a human. The difference between these and science is that science attempts to attain knowledge about the world. These others are experiences and opinions, not knowledge. If religion would be content to stay in the realm of opinion and experience and affects society no more than someone enjoying music, I would have no issue with it. When it claims knowledge, I will point out its flaws.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#125428 Sep 25, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
That sounds like a good description of Al.
Nietzsche said that the last good Christian died on the cross, but that's not completely true. I have known at least four that didn't sicken me - one in the seventies, Al Garcia, and two other Christians posting on Topix - one named Nettie, and a geologist from the evolution threads named Fossil Bob.
It's all about compartmentalization the faith. If you can limit it to the supernatural realm - faith in a heaven and a reward there - it can be harmless, and you can still be one of us.
But most of them let it bleed into this life, and start shaking their fingers in judgment, making stupid comments about science, calling man filth, and telling us how worthless this world is. That's when they cease being my fellow anything.
Did you see this yesterday? It sums up what I think of Christian philosophy and psychology:
==========
Charles Idemi wrote: Christians, are generally not interested, in the things of the world, but in heaven.
IANS wrote: What a remarkable confession. It kind of makes you a liability to the rest of us who do care about the world, don't you think? I mean, you just told us that you are not interested in one thing that matters to me and billions of other people (and trillions of animals).
You also are looking to the skies hoping praying for our annihilation in a great conflagration, aren't you? Millions more just like you are as well. God forbid one of you ever gets the chance to touch off such an apocalypse.
Furthermore, you have chosen to divert your attention and respect to something that probably doesn't exist. Even if it does, you couldn't know that, meaning that you are guessing. And if you guessed wrong. you missed the only show. I can tell you that it has been a fun ride. Somehow, you let people convince you that that was bad or wrong. You gave up so much on a promise that doesn't have to be kept, and undoubtedly won't be.
So, like some pathetic character from literature, you stare at the ceiling waiting for the end, missing and disesteeming your only only life, demeaning reality - you do it when you say "worldly" with a sneer - and demeaning yourself and your very substance with a similar sneer about "the flesh."
These have got to be among the worst ideas ever.
==========
It's great. Your posts were refreshing to read tonight. I like the way you take their confessions.:)

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#125429 Sep 25, 2012
Eye Heart Jesus wrote:
<quoted text>
The difference between u and I Is that I grew up and used my logic.
That is certainly not clear from your posts here. You start with your conclusions and ignore everything that goes against them. That isn't logic.

“A sentient umbrella speaks”

Since: Mar 11

Some stable somewhere

#125430 Sep 25, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
It's still you.
Nobody here has denounced the possibility of an intelligent life force. Or a stupid life force. Or a humor force. Or an aqua teen hunger force.
What has been denounced is your behavior, faith, and your church and religion.
<quoted text>
You act as if that is a trivial error. If you think so, then you haven't spent much time thinking about either science or the philosophy of science. The validity of rational skepticism is my fundamental belief, and is based in experience - its fruits. The fundamental idea of rational skepticism is that knowledge is derived from evidence, and that it is tentative.
Proof in the logical and mathematical sense is rarely possible in the world of abstract ideas, and certainly not in science. A huge revolution in thought occurred in the philosophy of science, with special attention to the concept of proof. The concepts of a scientific statement and falsifiability emerged.
When you use the word proof as a synonym for support, you reveal that you have seen none of this, know none of this, and have thought about none of this. That would be OK if you weren't pontificating about what is true and possible. You are too ignorant to know how ignorant you are. And you too arrogant to stand down.
* and too arrogant to learn.

In his vast and unending ignorance, he thinks he has it all figured out in the remarkably lazy "god did it."

I cannot imagine that level of intellectual laziness. But here, for our viewing pleasure, we have it!

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#125431 Sep 25, 2012
TheGoodTheBadTheUgly wrote:
<quoted text>I may have killed a lot of people, but I still consider myself a Christian.
What do you think?
You thought God told you to do it?

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#125434 Sep 25, 2012
polymath257 wrote:
<quoted text>
Now try doing a probability calculation that actually uses the laws of probability *correctly*. You do not get to multiply the different probabilities until you know that they are independent. That is certainly NOT the case in chemical reactions. A correct calculation could use the statistical mechanics of the situation, which would involve computing the entropies both before and after and comparing them. Unfortunately, there is no good estimate for the entropy of a cell. That said, we can calculate the entropies of all the chemical reactions we know are involved and see what happens. Guess what? Your BS unveiled.
Thank you, as you know math is not my thing but I tried telling him yesterday that 1 in 10210 is 1/10210 and not 1e-210. He seems to have done the same with 1 in 10600.

“Seventh son”

Since: Dec 10

Will Prevail

#125435 Sep 25, 2012
Hidingfromyou wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
You know, honestly, this time I did it with slumped shoulders. I stared at the screen for long while thinking "why should I bother?" Eye Heart here - is it possible to grow from such a position of ignorance? I don't think so. Of all the Creationists on here, only Eagle12 has come out and said "you convinced me of microevolution." It was as far as he could go, given his indoctrination and lack of education in bio-science, yet almost unbelievable, unreachable intellectual growth compared to short earth creationists.
And so the words just wouldn't come. After some force, I got it out. I seriously doubt Eye Heart will learn from it - did you see RiverSide's answer? Pure idiocy.
I apologize for this, but I'm glad they're not from my country :) How disheartening! We don't have this kind of ignorance in Japan. Different kinds, for sure, but not like this.
To follow the discoveries of James Hutton is the first step of logical deduction of Earth's long geological history. Understanding how the misconceptions of earlier thinking was completely shattered by his realization . Thus it became the advent of mans first steps toward true understanding the truth of planetary sciences.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#125436 Sep 25, 2012
Eye Heart Jesus wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes... Look how it's served me.. Wanting to sincerely help others find their way to God, because I care enough about humanity not to want people to end up in a place of eternal torment.
God forbid I develop a Genuine concern for fellow human beings.
Honey, There are so many people who don’t want your help particularly if you use fraud and lies in the pathetic attempt to entice others to joining you flock

Forcing your belief on other simply because you believe is ignorance in it’s highest form, lying about it is just pathetic

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#125437 Sep 25, 2012
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you, as you know math is not my thing but I tried telling him yesterday that 1 in 10210 is 1/10210 and not 1e-210. He seems to have done the same with 1 in 10600.
I have found it typical in those that cut and paste that the exponents disappear. So, instead of writing something like 4^1000, they write 41000. Since they don't know the difference, they don't realize that what they post makes no sense. Always a strong signal of complete ignorance in the topic. Of course, the actual calculations of the sites they cut and paste are also wrong and riddled with basic errors. But most can't even transcribe the stuff they don't understand correctly.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#125438 Sep 25, 2012
TheGoodTheBadTheUgly wrote:
<quoted text> Western peoples need to pay more attention to how Muslims are behaving towards them in their actions. They burn Western flags without any hesitation, slander Westerners, shoot and kill and kidnap Westerners, and especially tell Westerners to 'butt out when it comes to how they operate and live their miserable daily lives. Westerners have a genuine care for the treatment of women in these Muslim countries, but are told to mind their own business.
So too, because Western countries are democracies and have freedom of speech, the reading, writing and showing of articles of any form of media is a freedom of choice. Western countries should not be held hostage by Muslim countries who want to control what is being said all over the world.
Besides, its a good thing to publicize the truth about Islam for all its worth. Islam will fall in a few short years. The writing is on the wall. Just ask any Muslim that has immigrated to the West and has become educated.
The American boy scouts burn more US flags than any other group. The US army are doing a great job of burning the Qur’an so you point was?

It appears that you want to impose your beliefs on the world. OK, your choice but don’t be surprised when people object. Tell me how would you feel if they attempted to impose sharia law on your community? I feel sure that you would object, I certainly would.

I employ several Muslims and often spend lunch time in conversation. Some time ago (just after 9/11) I asked why do Muslims hate the west so much. The reply was along the lines of - when the west stops shooting Muslim brothers and fathers, when the west stops raping our sisters, when the west stops stealing our land and imposing their values on us then we will stop hating the west.

Yes the western world tends to be democratic, that does not mean that all the world is democratic and that does not mean that you should force democracy on others whether then want it or not.

Wrong, Moslems in general don’t actually give a fig for what is said in the west just so long as it does not effect their faith. When it does affect their religious beliefs then … From you post I assume (perhaps wrongly) that you have been raised to accept no shit from foreigners. Guess what, they feel the same way about the Qur’an.

The Islamic faith is growing, it is currently the worlds fastest growing faith at around 2.2%(Guinness book of records) increase per year, the growth is particularly high in the west with conversions to Islam.

Since: Jun 12

Location hidden

#125439 Sep 25, 2012
It aint necessarily so wrote:
No. Those that believe that 1+1=3 on faith cannot be corrected with reason. You believe 3=1 don't you?
You explined that earlier and i complemented your post. Remember?

1+1=2 is a conceptual reality which does not depend on the human mind as is logical absolutes. It was not invented by man as polymath has stated. Both theism and atheism cannot be true at the same time in the same place. If A is true then T is false and vice versa. You do agree that is a logical absolute?

Now if there are only two possibilities to explain something; Atheism and Theism and one of the possibilites is incapable then the other is validated by default. 1) Do you affirm logical absolutes? 2)Do you agree logical absolutes exist independent of the human mind? How does atheism explain the existence of logical and math absolutes in a random universe which came about absent intelligence?

You see that is why it takes more faith to be an atheist!

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#125440 Sep 25, 2012
TheGoodTheBadTheUgly wrote:
<quoted text>What is your problem dearie?
I think that you should be very careful when you say such things to Tuco. Besides that, its not very good for your reputation to be so obnoxious to write like that. Members shoud be courteous at all times to one another.
Now go ahead, make my day.
No problem at all you condescending fool.

Ehm, public thread, when someone verbally abused me then I feel justified in replying in kind, If you don’t like the idea of free speech than tough, perhaps you need to move to some Muslim country where such luxuries are restricted.

“I started out with nothing”

Since: Nov 10

and still got most of it left

#125441 Sep 25, 2012
TheGoodTheBadTheUgly wrote:
<quoted text>You really do have serious mental health problems.
Too much Prozac, is it! Or just plain lonely?
I'll arrange to send Angel Eyes over. He's a hoot in a hat.
See above

But I see you are using you god given right to guess. Have you ever thought of using actual facts or do you think it cool just to come in here and make comments based of one post

Since: Sep 08

Lamar, CO

#125443 Sep 25, 2012
ChristineM wrote:
<quoted text>
Murder is murder, incitement is incitement. No there is no excuse for murder but that does not give people cart blanch to incite hatred, if they do then they must accept responsibility for its possible consequences.
In many countries execution on religious grounds is not against the law particularly Moslim countries, the film was an affront against the Moslim religion and the film maker was fully aware of the anger his film would stir up. He knew the possible consequences prior to publication, hell he is know for his anti Muslim stance anyway. He made the film and therefore is responsible for making the film, there is no argument there. Ignorance is no excuse however in this case the filmmaker was not ignorant, it was a deliberate act of aggression.
Of course murder is wrong and I am not saying that murder is excusable, it horrifies me under any circumstances. I realise though that those particular murders would not have happened if the film had not been made.
No I am asking you to consider that other people have a different outlook on life and to think about the trail of events that lead to these atrocities.
Lovey dove, you have outdone yourself for hypocrisy with that post.

Execution on religious grounds is against the law in those places, unless done by the authorities where it IS against the law.

Those murders would have happened anyhow. Was just an excuse, part of a larger power struggle.

It is extremely interesting how you are so vicious in attacking Christianity, in attempts to raise the rabble against it, yet are so sympathetic to Muslim fanatics. This Christian "intolerance" you like to allege pretty much happened in the past. This Muslim "indignation" and "intolerance" is happening today.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#125444 Sep 25, 2012
Givemeliberty wrote:
Ad hom attack the concession speech of one who knows they are losing. Still waiting for you to disprove King Triton he is as real as Yahweh and Jesus unless you can show otherwise.
<quoted text>
Ah, the ole athitard tactic of diversion....

"Let's not talk about Jesus (the topic), let's talk about King Triton, the myth from The Theogony.......

("Beacuse atheists refuse to talk about the topic")

“Think&Care”

Since: Oct 07

Location hidden

#125445 Sep 25, 2012
lightbeamrider wrote:
<quoted text> You explined that earlier and i complemented your post. Remember?
1+1=2 is a conceptual reality which does not depend on the human mind as is logical absolutes. It was not invented by man as polymath has stated.
Obviously I disagree. Mathematics is a language we have invented to help us understand the world. So, for that matter, is logic. For both, there are alternatives that have been studied. In fact, some of the alternative logics could be better for quantum mechanics than the conventional one.
Both theism and atheism cannot be true at the same time in the same place. If A is true then T is false and vice versa. You do agree that is a logical absolute?
Wrong. You have not defined the deity of theism with enough precision to allow for a dichotomy. Can a deity be material? Can the physical laws be the deity? Can the universe be a deity? You see, there are many more than two options.
Now if there are only two possibilities to explain something; Atheism and Theism and one of the possibilites is incapable then the other is validated by default.
False dichotomy, as explained above.
1) Do you affirm logical absolutes? 2)Do you agree logical absolutes exist independent of the human mind?
I think the range of logical absolutes is very limited. Propositional and quantifier logic are about as far as I would go. Even then, the applicability to the real world is dependent on testing.

Yes, I think these, like any language, are products of the human mind. I'll leave open the possibility that there are other minds in the universe.
How does atheism explain the existence of logical and math absolutes in a random universe which came about absent intelligence?
You see that is why it takes more faith to be an atheist!
Mathematics is an abstract system. Its conclusions may or may not apply for any particular physical system. Whether they do is a matter of applying the scientific method (hypothesis, test, etc). Even something as basic as 1+1=2 may or may not apply in any given situation. For example, if you smash two protons together, you may well get much more than two protons out: pions, many protons, many anti-protons, various other particles, etc.

Next, why do you assume the universe is *random*? it most certainly is not. The laws of physics and chemistry are not random. I don't know why it is so hard to get that through the heads of the fundy crowd. gravity is not a random force: it is always attractive. That is why planets are spherical. That is why stars form. Etc, etc. The laws of electromagnetism are not random. The laws of chemistry are not random. That is why helium won't react chemically with any other element. That is why hydrogen and oxygen will form water. That is why even a few basic building blocks will spontaneously (yes, without external intervention) produce more complicated structures in the correct environments. This is NOT random!!

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