Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 247624 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

Join the discussion below, or Read more at Webbunny tumblelog.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#211803 Feb 9, 2014
macumazahn wrote:
<quoted text>First Hoplite will welcome you both.
And I know this for a fact, because I founded it.
I think I'm already a member.

Since: Oct 10

Location hidden

#211804 Feb 9, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
The Holy Church of Catcher is also available.
All faith must be left at the door.
I know I'm already a member.

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#211805 Feb 9, 2014
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
I know I'm already a member.
Our happy hour alone is well worth the price of membership.
Eagle 12

Troy, IL

#211806 Feb 9, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
I have read my Bible, for 40+ years as a practicing and committed Christian, and now as an inveterate skeptic (apostate, they say from within the sanctuary). In the last 20 years I have studied it in depth - in fact I began so in order to be a more complete Christian, and it was this very study that caused the "scales to fall from my eyes" as to the veracity of it's claims.
One of the most self-serving and fallacious "proofs" I discovered in my reading was the shameless and cavalier way that Christianity hijacked an ancient people's scripture (namely, Judaism), including their prophecies. Not content with that, they further "discovered" other "prophecies" where none was known previously to exist, even by the author. I would love to find a prophecy, Messianic or otherwise, that has unequivocally come true, but I am still looking. If anyone knows of one, I'd like to hear it.
Biblical "prophecy" tends to be hopelessly vague, and generally go something along the lines of,
"...and in that day the Rulers of the East and West shall usher in a period of tribulation, until such time as the Eagle scream at midday, whereby the Man of Sorrows shalt utter a plea to the Unnamed One to find his chariot keys, and it will be so."
These may call themselves prophecy, but these posers should be tarred and feathered and carried out on a rail. As vague as these utterances are, they can be applied to some situation in virtually every decade of history since utterance. They're no more prophetic than a fortune cookie. To make matters worse, the Christians came along and hijacked these vague utterances, and put their own wholly gratuitous spin on them, piling contumely upon obscurity.
I do hope tho' that together we can search through and find just one that deservedly carries the name of "prophecy come true," requiring no disclaimer intoning, "First comes believe, then shall truth reveal." Hmmm. That's pretty much what revived Tinkerbell too. If this is prophecy, these Biblical parlor tricks serve no purpose beyond padding the ego of an insecure deity. If this God wants to keep secrets, I say leave him be. He can't be trusted.
Remember, true prophecy is not just any old educated guess based on geopolitical realities. Divine Prophecy is like a healing miracle - it should be a manifestation of supernatural power providing unequivocal evidence to believers AND unbelievers alike, without need of indoctrination. It must be bold as the sun and clear as a bell, subject to no fallible human's interpretation.
So, if anyone can find just one true unequivocal prophecy in the NT, I pledge to hie my arse back to the altar. Here's your chance - the heart is open - God commands you to save me from Ol' Scratch. Let 'er rip.
As a skeptic you have doubts but I also have some serious doubts. Especially about your 40+ years as being a committed Christian.

I would be willing to bet that you couldn’t even name a fourth of the books of the Bible in person. I would also be willing to bet the average 8 year old in a Christian School would kick your *ss in a scripture quoting contest.

It’s too bad we could gather an audience in real life and put your claims to the test. That would indeed be a entertaining moment. But the chances are that you wouldn’t even show up.

I just want to let you know you may have bamboozled those who are already fools. But not everyone accepts your claims as being factual. If the facts be known you may have been a Christian 40 + years in title only but committed? That’s in very serious doubt.

Thank you for writing a nice piece about being a skeptic and doubts. Because that’s exactly the reaction your have achieved from me.[tipping hat]

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211807 Feb 9, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
The problem is not with prophecy. It means non believers are predictable.

In your case you require evidence and yet cannot prove your position. That means evidence is not really a problem for you in the first place.

You say you are skeptical. But when it comes to your position which you cannot prove there is no skepticism demonstrated.
Your reply indicates that you don't understand what burden of proof is. I don't need evidence when you are making a claim, such as that your biblical prophecies are more than nontrivial.
lightbeamrider wrote:
Then prove all that. It is your claim and you should be able to demonstrate it from history. 1) They knew prophesy. 2) They had the power to create countries, motivated by prophesy. That is why they did it.
That's absurd. Do you or do you not offer these prophecies as evidence of divine foreknowledge? Why would I believe that when there is a perfectly natural explanation for why the prophecy came to pass?

“The Edge”

Since: Dec 10

Of Tomorow

#211808 Feb 9, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>
Our happy hour alone is well worth the price of membership.
I'll try, but I don't think I can talk nano into it.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211809 Feb 9, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
I would say both Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry predicting the rebirth of Israel from the Bible is not low quality.
Are you claiming that they are gods, or that their words were controlled by a god? If not, why would it matter that they had faith in a prophecy that millions before and after also had faith in?
lightbeamrider wrote:
They had no real reason to make such assumptions since there is no precedent in history of anything like that happening in human history after so long a time. Henry's prediction predates the event by 200+ years. At the same spot and undivided. Quit remarkable.
No reason? Except faith in the biblical prediction. Do you find that extraordinary?
lightbeamrider wrote:
Let me get this straight you reduce the prediction of the rebirth of Israel made by Isaac Newton and Matthew Henry from Scripture to the same level of predicting an eclipse?
No. The biblical prophecy doesn't rise to the level of an eclipse prediction .It is not nearly as impressive. Nor as specific. An eclipse specifies an exact time and place, and it is a sure thing - never wrong if calculated properly. No biblical prophecy comes close to that.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211810 Feb 9, 2014
lightbeamrider wrote:
Hundreds of years before the event happened? In the first place they did not know when Israel would happen they, just knew it would from Scripture. They can know when an eclipse will happen.
You seem to see predicting eclipses accurately as a defect rather than a virtue, and the lack of specificity in the biblical prediction - "they did not know when Israel would happen" -.as a virtue of prophecy. The human predictions kick ass over the biblical ones. They prove that the humans knew what was going to happen with the eclipse with certainty in advance. People fly around the world to see solar eclipses with the complete certainty that only bad weather can disappoint them, not bad prophecy.

We expect a god to at least that well.
lightbeamrider wrote:
And you call yourself skeptics?
Yeppers.
Eagle 12

Troy, IL

#211811 Feb 9, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>
Yes, we have a beautiful garden entirely of Mrs Aint's design. Yes, we have chili peppers, but no tomatoes. Bananas and figs are our only other crops besides herbs (rosemary, basil). It's mostly grass, shrubs, vines, and trees with lots of colorful blooms. Are you into gardening? If so, here is an inventory:
Apart from the above, we grow canna lillies (not calla), geraniums, periwinkles, irises, azaleas, dahlias, a hydrangea, impatiens, an outrageous and prolific angel trumpet tree, assorted potted plants (stone and terra cotta, several onpedestals) including orchids, marigold, chenille plant, hummingbird vine, crown of thorns, lantana, clivia, Madagascar palms, areca palms, donkey tail palm, and Christmas cacti. We also have blue trumpet vine and bleeding heart vine growing on a wrought iron fence and gate, and bougainvilleas of assorted colors on the walls. Almost anything will grow in this climate.
We also have two fountains, assorted hummingbird feeders, a cage where my wife raises monarch butterflies for release, terraced steps, and assorted statuary, including tikis, a large ceramic Aztec calendar, a ceramic monkey on a trapeze, a bronze Ganesh, St. Francis with animals, and Our Lady of Guadaloupe in cantera.
We have a covered but open terrace at the top of the stairs bedecked in Mexican art and chimes with furniture for socializing, reading or napping. We also have specialty lighting that makes it especially beautiful on starry nights, with two back-lit large stained glass windows separating the terrace from the attached house.
It's a very spiritual place. One cannot help but commune with nature surrounded by so much color, light and life.
That is so cool. Thank you for sharing that with us. I bet it’s a beautiful place. It sounds like you have a paradise. I love the natural wildlife that’s attracted to such places.

When I was a growing up my Dad and Grandparents did some gardening but more to put fresh produce on the table. We spent a many hours over the years shelling peas and beans on the front porch.

I tried growing some tomatoes one year in my sun room but that didn’t turn out so well. Tomatoes need a lot of sun light. So I replanted them outside and they started producing.

I enjoyed your response Doctor.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211812 Feb 9, 2014
River Tam wrote:
<quoted text>
It's not going to go the way she wants it to. She knows that. She's far from stupid. Her pastor seems to be a nice man but he's not going to go against his beliefs or the beliefs of the deacon or the church. In order to be accepted, she'll have to reaffirm the baptismal vows. If she does that in good faith, it will mean being rid of me. She'll speak her mind. She'll pick me and then we'll find a church that accepts us.
We all know what the problem is. When something will not bend there is no option but to break it.
This is yet another example affirming the claim that the church has no right to claim it has anything whatsoever to do with love or empathy. It's all about imposing ancient, irrational, pointless ideas onto lives without any concern for the love it tires to kill or the lives it hurts. Love and empathy have nothing to do with this pointless, divisive and destructive system of beliefs.

I hope your friend can have the courage to see that and abandon the church. It does not respect either of you. Nor does it have her interests or yours at heart.

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#211813 Feb 9, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
<quoted text>Our happy hour alone is well worth the price of membership.
What's the price of membership?

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211814 Feb 9, 2014
Divinity Surgeon wrote:
*phew* I have to see some changes!
You're in your thirties, aren't you Juice? If so, you'll likely see more than I will.

You've learned a lot in the year-plus that I've been posting with you.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#211815 Feb 9, 2014
Eagle 12 wrote:
<quoted text>
As a skeptic you have doubts but I also have some serious doubts. Especially about your 40+ years as being a committed Christian.
I would be willing to bet that you couldn’t even name a fourth of the books of the Bible in person. I would also be willing to bet the average 8 year old in a Christian School would kick your *ss in a scripture quoting contest.
It’s too bad we could gather an audience in real life and put your claims to the test. That would indeed be a entertaining moment. But the chances are that you wouldn’t even show up.
I just want to let you know you may have bamboozled those who are already fools. But not everyone accepts your claims as being factual. If the facts be known you may have been a Christian 40 + years in title only but committed? That’s in very serious doubt.
Thank you for writing a nice piece about being a skeptic and doubts. Because that’s exactly the reaction your have achieved from me.[tipping hat]
We've had some good times, Eagle.

Here's a post I remember fondly.

*

Eagle12 wrote: To be honest with you I have never spent any time admiring a man’s nipples. When I see another man at the lake of beach with his shirt off. I don’t say to my self,“he has a nice set of nipples.”(...)
<quoted text>

[QUOTE who="
TheBlackSheep wrote:
Why the long rant on the male nipple? The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
Yeah, Eagle has man nipple issues.

Eagle on the man nipple:
"QUICK, Martha, get the kids in the house! The neighbor is mowing his yard shirtless and I can see his man nipples from here!" - 03/21/78

"GEEZUSS... I don't even know why come to the beach. Look at all these exposed man nipples. That's it! Put the kids in the car, Martha, we're going home! If I wanna see man nipples I can see them for free when the neighbor mows the lawn." - 7/7/82

"It's nice to meet you and I think you're the State Representative we need in Washington. Okay, do you have any ideas about how we can STOP man nipples being exposed? They're everywhere... Men cutting the grass, shirtless, landscapers, it's a disgrace I tell you." - 11/11/87

"I can't BELIEVE this! The neighbor is mowing the lawn shirtless again!. I should go over there with some pliers and grab his exposed man nipples and grab on to them and just grab..n..pull..them.. really,..<gulp> rEAlly....harRrd..um then twIst...themmmm.... QUICK!, MARTHA!...MEET ME IN THE BEDROOM! BRING THE TOOL BELT!..." - 6/9/99
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TUGI0DV...

Yeah, good times...

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#211816 Feb 9, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
I'll try, but I don't think I can talk nano into it.
All you have to do is lure nano to the church entrance.

Pastor Catcher, HL and our Jagermeister doubles will do the rest.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211817 Feb 9, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
<quoted text>
The children mine and other peoples aka: the next generation...are more religious than mine.
The next generation remains to be seen. This is America and they have been trained to be this way, and I think even without training to be ..humans are likely to swing towards belief.
Just look at the truth movement, up to 40% believe in that nonsense, I have little thought the future will bring a majority of rational thinking Americans. In short I foresee a repeat of the same stupidity as the last 50.
I hope you're wrong. From http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/nor...

"A decade ago, a group non-believers meeting publicly on a university campus like this one at Virgina Tech would have been rare, but over the last five years the number of student “freethinker” groups in the US, has begun to snowball: from 100 in 2007 their number has leapt to more than 350 today, according to the nationwide Secular Student Alliance. Their growth reflects a rapid shift in attitudes towards religion in America among young people, with one recent Pew poll finding that more than one third of Americans aged 18 to 29 now say they have “no religious affiliation”, compared with less than 10 per cent of their grandparents’ generation.

"While America still remains outwardly far more religious than Europe, the sudden rise of the “nones”, as they were dubbed by the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, has raised the question of whether the US is on the cusp of a dramatic sea-change in attitude towards religion in public life. The recent shift in the gay marriage debate is evidence, say secularists, of how fast entrenched public attitudes can change: a decade ago just 30 per cent of Americans supported gay marriage, today the figure is consistently over 55 per cent. A decade from now, will attitudes to religion have followed suit?"

That's the good news - the future. Here's the bad - the present they've given us (for now):

" And yet despite the softening approach of the younger generation towards religion, in this fiercely Bible-minded corner of Virginia, many atheists and agnostics still feel they must live in the shadows. In two days of interviews at least half of the avowed non-believers declined to be named in the Telegraph, citing fears they would be ostracised by friends, family, churches and even their employers.

"The Virginia Tech group contains a broad spectrum, from life-long atheists who grew up in sceptical families to home-schooled Baptists, evangelical Catholics and even a young man who was brought up in a Dominionist cult dedicated to establishing a Theocracy in America. Caroline - not her real name - is a graduate research chemist who is about to hit the job market and is afraid that her atheism will be held against her.“I’m more concerned about getting a job than losing one,” she said.“I know they Google you and while I can’t hide my atheism, I don’t really want to advertise it. If the person hiring is a person of faith - which is more likely than not around here - that could easily be the difference between a job and no job. And I have student loans. I need a job.”

"She is not alone in her fears. Another student who is applying for graduate school told how his father recommended he delete any references to atheism from his Facebook page in case it spoiled his chances. He rejected the advice on principle, but remains unsure what the consequences will be. For others members, the biggest fear is being shunned at home.“I’ve lost a lot friends,” said John, a graduate student in his thirties who grew up being home-schooled by his Southern Baptist parents but gave up his faith after an intellectual rebellion against the church’s Creationist teaching. "

Why should we have to live like this? Why would we not push back? Should we care if the theists don't approve?

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#211818 Feb 9, 2014
Divinity Surgeon wrote:
<quoted text>
What's the price of membership?
For you, membership is on the house.

But you do have to do a little dance around the pews.

“What's left to defend?”

Since: Jan 11

Freedom

#211819 Feb 9, 2014
Eagle 12 wrote:
As a skeptic you have doubts but I also have some serious doubts. Especially about your 40+ years as being a committed Christian.
I would be willing to bet that you couldn’t even name a fourth of the books of the Bible in person. I would also be willing to bet the average 8 year old in a Christian School would kick your *ss in a scripture quoting contest.
It’s too bad we could gather an audience in real life and put your claims to the test. That would indeed be a entertaining moment. But the chances are that you wouldn’t even show up.
I just want to let you know you may have bamboozled those who are already fools. But not everyone accepts your claims as being factual. If the facts be known you may have been a Christian 40 + years in title only but committed? That’s in very serious doubt.
Thank you for writing a nice piece about being a skeptic and doubts. Because that’s exactly the reaction your have achieved from me.[tipping hat]
This is stupid on so many levels.

“Life may be sweeter for this”

Since: Nov 08

Fennario

#211820 Feb 9, 2014
Aura Mytha wrote:
AND btw the influx of Latin people from south the border....
Are highly religious folks as much as our parents generation. The majority of them are Christians.
The same thing is happening here in Mexico. Young Mexicans are increasingly irreligious. Mexico is growing rapidly in education and sophistication. I know only three young Mexicans well enough to tell you their religious perspectives, and they're all atheists.Two are "living in sin" together, the third a lesbian. That's not much data, but all three tell me that their generation tends to disregard the pope.

A fourth that has not shared her religious views with me - is an artist in her late twenties and living unmarried with a young American photographer who is definitely not religious.

A fifth has not discussed his religious views with me either, but he named his now 6-year old daughter Akari - Japanese for light - after her mother Luz, which is Spanish for light. Religious people tend to choose names like Maria. Akari sounds pretty progressive and New Agey to me.

So, my very limited view of life for young Mexicans is very positive. They're wealthier and more worldly than their parents were, and they seem to look to the modern world for ideas, not their parents or the past..

Since: Sep 10

Long Beach, CA

#211821 Feb 9, 2014
Tide with Beach wrote:
<quoted text>
This is stupid on so many levels.
There's a reason the guy lies under the Catcher white sheet.

Actually, there are several reasons.

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#211822 Feb 9, 2014
It aint necessarily so wrote:
<quoted text>You're in your thirties, aren't you Juice? If so, you'll likely see more than I will.

You've learned a lot in the year-plus that I've been posting with you.
Yeah, mid thirties.

I agree, I've learnt a lot, mainly that I have much more to learn and it will be nice to see, hopefully, changes for the better.

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