Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent. Full Story

“The who whating how with huh?”

Since: Dec 12

Earth

#208748 Jan 28, 2014
_GRIM REAPER_ wrote:
<quoted text>And you're not i suppose? must be someone else that made you look stupid, like you need help at that!
No, I don't make several aliases to follow myself around with.

“The who whating how with huh?”

Since: Dec 12

Earth

#208749 Jan 28, 2014
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>You are right now.
Lol.
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#208750 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
How do you know that?
Snowflakes is observable but not measurable, but exist nonetheless.
Black holes are not observable OR measurable, but exist in nature.
Dreams are not measurable, but they exist.
DNA is only recently observable, but it existed without our knowledge of it.
Why do you give such criteria to God but not to other things?
Snowflakes are of course measurable, as are dreams, and DNA.

If you are talking about the creator of the universe and everything in it, it becomes the most important thing to be affirmed. Next to black holes, DNA, dreams and snowflakes, the existence of the creator of all things makes these others seem meaningless, it is the MOST important of all things to be demonstrated, and demonstrated in a way that cannot be refuted, it must be indisputable. This, so far, had NOT happened.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#208751 Jan 28, 2014
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>You don't have things in your life one might characterize as blessings? Family or friends that love you. Opportunities to do things that bring you joy. A genuine concern about the suffering of others. And so on?

Man has free will and the capacity for both good and evil. There is no question man chooses to do a lot of bad. But he also chooses to do a lot of good.

Life itself IMO is a miracle and a blessing.

What would you feel showed God did care?

And who do you feel would be to blame between man and God (assuming God exists) if there are enough resources to feed and house everybody in the world but those resources are disproportionately spread out in part due to the wealth and power of some?
I agree with the sentiment, but have to take issue with the myth that all misery can be traced back to freewill. Your final paragraph is sadly and abundantly true - we could feed the world, but due to greed masked as "the invisible hand" of the free-market, we'll feed excess grain to the hogs if the market price isn't good enough.

In that light, what would I feel showed there was a proactive and involved deity who cared? First, it could mitigate or eliminate all "natural" disasters, diseases, and congenital defects, or basically every calamity that has nothing to do with human behavior. Second, it could slap down with a mighty hand anyone who attacks an innocent who has no one to fight for them. Allowing a pedophilic murderer to do his thing under the guise of "free will" is a perverse travesty of the concept. A god would surely know how to sort them out. What a great witness that would be!

Rather than appear only in ancient books and modern potato chips, a deity who cared could make itself positively known, and >still< allow free choice to follow it or not. God certainly didn't have a problem grandstanding before superstitious people of antiquity - why is it so shy ever since?

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#208752 Jan 28, 2014
scaritual wrote:
Polytheists...
Meh.
You don't like them?

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#208753 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Oh.
I thought one can't believe in atheism or science.
I mean, that's what the Topix Atheist! spouts.....
I guess all you could do was crawfish back from that one, eh?

>grin here<

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208754 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
Laura Metha?
He's a bit strange but usually humorous.
And he's a fellow gun nut, so I gotsta excuse his antics a wee bit.
Laura is a gun nut?

Sheesh I wish I didn't know that

I'm not even kidding in the slightest. If my life depended on an honest answer I would not hesitate to admit I think he is not "all there". Some cylinders aren't clicking. Yet the trigger of a gun might be. Just wonderful

Meh, odds are he will probably just unload a clip in the mirror one night because he started himself

:)

Since: Apr 09

Location hidden

#208755 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
God's existence does not reside in the realm of fact.
I believe He exists.
You do not believe He exists.
Neither one of us can validate our belief.
Hence, faith.
I know atheists hate using that word. They usually tie it to religious faith.
Faith is really just trust or confidence in something.
No faith is required to believe something DOESN'T exist when there has literally never been any proof that it ever existed in the first place.

Its sad that closed minded religious folks can't understand this.

I do not need faith to know there are no unicorns.

I do not need faith to know there are no leprechauns.

I do not need faith to know there are no deities.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#208756 Jan 28, 2014
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>I own The Creature From The Black Lagoon, so I guess he's also real, I also have some bugs bunny and superman movies, real also?
It's not my "opinion" that God isn't real, no more than it's my "opinion" that Tinkerbell and her bag of pixie dust is real.
There is ONLY one way to determine if something is real or not, and thats reliable demonstrable evidence, and only science can supply us with that. Ok, cue the dream and love bullshit, both of which manifest themselves in reality.
And why can't you get that there is, never has been, and most likely never will be, evidence for your God thing!
There are plenty of things that are real that science cannot explain. More than just dreams or emotions.

The sun's corona is hotter than the surface.

90% of people are right-handed.

There is no explanation of the giant hurricane on Saturn, the one that won't go away.

Birds migrate to the same spot year after year with no map or compass.

Sleep.

The useless long neck of the giraffe.

Gravity.

The center of the earth is as hot as the sun.

In the Smokey Mountains, fireflies flash in unison.

Earthquake lights.

The Placebo effect.

The beginning of the universe.

Life exists.

I hope this doesn't ruin your faith that nothing exists unless science can explain it.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#208757 Jan 28, 2014
blacklagoon wrote:
Snowflakes are of course measurable, as are dreams, and DNA.
Oh?

How many snowflakes fell yesterday?

Please post a link to someone's dream.

Let's get to measuring.
If you are talking about the creator of the universe and everything in it, it becomes the most important thing to be affirmed. Next to black holes, DNA, dreams and snowflakes, the existence of the creator of all things makes these others seem meaningless, it is the MOST important of all things to be demonstrated, and demonstrated in a way that cannot be refuted, it must be indisputable. This, so far, had NOT happened.
Not long ago, we knew nothing of DNA. Not a thing.

But it existed nonetheless.

“Ditat Deus”

Since: Jul 12

Location hidden

#208758 Jan 28, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
I guess all you could do was crawfish back from that one, eh?
>grin here<
mmmmm..... crawfish....

You're either implying that people can believe in atheism and science or you're not. Which is it?

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208759 Jan 28, 2014
scaritual wrote:
<quoted text>
Here's a few more religions that have deity claims too.
Never read their books(think bible)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baha%27i_Faith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sikhism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckankar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism
HAHAAA...
Oh, yeah, you don't believe in those deities - mostly - even though your deity belief draws some aspects from those others...
<theist> "MY GOD IS THE ONLY REALLY REALLY REAL GOD!...AND CAPITALIZE "GOD", OR IT MEANS LESS, CAUSE MY GOD IS THE REAL ONE, DAMN YOU!
MY GOD IS SO FRIKKEN REAL!....
...JUST READ THE BOOK!"
Theists are an absolute hoot.
Titles and proper nouns are capatalized simply by being gratically correct

When believers talk about God they are talking about a specific entity that we refer to by that title. I extend that to pronouns when referring to God simply as a small gesture of respect as I feel the same principle applies

I think you are reading more into it then is there
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#208760 Jan 28, 2014
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>But the disproportionate distribution of wealth and resources is the very reason there are millions of starving children
But you would essentially want God to create a Heaven on Earth where sickness and disease don't exist? And what about all the pollutants and contaminates by man that is the cause of many of the problems or man leveling rain forests where cures have been found?
Would you want God to chew your food for you too? I'm just wondering where the exact cutoff should be for why God should constantly intervene to save man from his own greed and selfishness and stupidity
As got you needing God to reveal himself to the works, that wasn't part if the discussion. It wasn't why don't you believe but rather why someone would think if He does that He doesn't care? I don't know why some of you guys are so seemingly desperate to constantly tell believers your position over and over and over again. I know you don't think there is proof of God. Please check that as "already been edtablished"
Is God incapable of creating man without the undesirable traits of greed, selfishness, and stupidity?

Is God incapable for creating a heaven on Earth were sickness and disease don't exist?

God is supposed to have created all the parameter's concerning creation, he made all the rules, is all seeing, can see what will happen in the future, is all powerful, nothing is beyond his capabilities. Would you not do anything to protect your children for harm. If you had the ability to protect them for sickness and disease, would you not? And to sit idly by, no matter what the reasoning, and watch frightened innocent little children die horrible deaths from starvation is unimaginable, especially if you had the power to save them.

Capricious, uncaring, and NOT omnipotent, best describes this God.

“The eye has it...”

Since: May 09

Russell's Teapot

#208761 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
You don't like them?
I don't particularly dislike you if that's what you're asking. I think you make atheism look good, for instance. You can't dislike that, no matter if you are a polytheist.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208762 Jan 28, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>I agree with the sentiment, but have to take issue with the myth that all misery can be traced back to freewill. Your final paragraph is sadly and abundantly true - we could feed the world, but due to greed masked as "the invisible hand" of the free-market, we'll feed excess grain to the hogs if the market price isn't good enough.
In that light, what would I feel showed there was a proactive and involved deity who cared? First, it could mitigate or eliminate all "natural" disasters, diseases, and congenital defects, or basically every calamity that has nothing to do with human behavior. Second, it could slap down with a mighty hand anyone who attacks an innocent who has no one to fight for them. Allowing a pedophilic murderer to do his thing under the guise of "free will" is a perverse travesty of the concept. A god would surely know how to sort them out. What a great witness that would be!
Rather than appear only in ancient books and modern potato chips, a deity who cared could make itself positively known, and >still< allow free choice to follow it or not. God certainly didn't have a problem grandstanding before superstitious people of antiquity - why is it so shy ever since?
So essentially God would intervene to strike down sinners in their tracks before they could commit a terrible crime?

Of course then we would never really know if the were going to commit the crime unless someone trusted God. Why do I have a feeling that type of justice wouldn't go over so well with the same people who complain now? Would you want God to take that role given you are an 'unbeliever'?

And yes, any innocent suffering is sad. But there is a justice system in place. What is 100 years of a human life compared to eternity? That would be like man complaining earth justice wasn't swift enough unless we had a trial one minute after the arrest. People will pay for their crimes and victims will receive justice and be rewarded for their suffering

As for natural disasters, I mean obviously its a guess but isn't kind of the point that tomorrow is promised to no man? Life is short. It is fragile. It's unpredictable. All the more reason to live for the day, don't put off coming to God, etc.

When you were a believer, how did you reconcile it?
blacklagoon

Hyde Park, MA

#208763 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
There are plenty of things that are real that science cannot explain. More than just dreams or emotions.
The sun's corona is hotter than the surface.
90% of people are right-handed.
There is no explanation of the giant hurricane on Saturn, the one that won't go away.
Birds migrate to the same spot year after year with no map or compass.
Sleep.
The useless long neck of the giraffe.
Gravity.
The center of the earth is as hot as the sun.
In the Smokey Mountains, fireflies flash in unison.
Earthquake lights.
The Placebo effect.
The beginning of the universe.
Life exists.
I hope this doesn't ruin your faith that nothing exists unless science can explain it.
You seem confused over the difference between proving something is REAL and not being able to explain something that is real. many of your examples can absolutely be explained.
The hottest part of a flame is not at the bottom but near the top or the sides, so the corona being hotter than the surface makes perfect sense.
Birds migrate using the earth magnetic fields along with visual orientation and smells. Birds contain grains of magnetite, a form of iron oxide that can be easily magnetized.
There are many theories as to why we need sleep, it is not totally unexplained.
The long neck of a Giraffe's neck is far from useless, it enables the animal to graze on the higher branches where other grazers can't reach, chalk that up to a great evolutionary adaptation.
Since the Earth was part of the same accretion disk as the sun, it makes sense that we retained portions of the sun.
There are many theories as to how the universe began, as there are as to how life came to be. Abiogenesis is already being experimented with. Amino acids, the building blocks for life have already been created from Chemical mixtures. Science speculated being able to create life from non-living materials, Abiogenesis, within the next decade.

“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#208764 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
How do you know that?
Care to name something that is natural but can not be observed.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Snowflakes is observable but not measurable, but exist nonetheless.
Counting individual snowflakes is not the only way to measure them. For example, you could weigh individual snowflakes and come up with an average.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Black holes are not observable OR measurable, but exist in nature.
Incorrect. For one thing, one can observe and measure the gravitational effects around the black hole. For a second thing, one can see the jets coming off of the disk of matter falling into the black hole. For a third thing, one can observe the Hawking radiation.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Dreams are not measurable, but they exist.
Again, one can observe and measure the brain activity of a sleeper.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
DNA is only recently observable, but it existed without our knowledge of it.
Why do you give such criteria to God but not to other things?
"Believing" in DNA before it was observed would have been irrational, even though it turned out to actually exist. Believing in Bigfoot is irrational. If evidence of Bigfoot were to come to light, THEN believing in Bigfoot would not be irrational...but not before.(And, no, Buck is not evidence of Bigfoot.)

Your thinking is rather limited. Likely, you have never had to consider the nature of observations and measurement.

Judging from your earlier posts(referring to things like dark matter), I think it likely your position is..."I don't believe in anything until I lay eyes on it, except for God."

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#208765 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
There are plenty of things that are real that science cannot explain. More than just dreams or emotions.
The sun's corona is hotter than the surface.
90% of people are right-handed.
There is no explanation of the giant hurricane on Saturn, the one that won't go away.
Birds migrate to the same spot year after year with no map or compass.
Sleep.
The useless long neck of the giraffe.
Gravity.
The center of the earth is as hot as the sun.
In the Smokey Mountains, fireflies flash in unison.
Earthquake lights.
The Placebo effect.
The beginning of the universe.
Life exists.
I hope this doesn't ruin your faith that nothing exists unless science can explain it.
There are scientific explanations for most above, if not all. Fireflies flash in unison universally, males in the air, females on the ground. When two get in sync, it indicates a mate that is "sympatico". If many happen to do so at once, it's party time. Birds navigate by a combination of things, inc. sense of the earth's magnetic field and the angle and duration of sunlight. Earthquake lights are releases of static electricity. The giraffe evolved a long neck in order to reach the upper leaves, so it's certainly not "useless".

These are all explanations using the best information available at this time. They don't pretend to be complete and beyond further question. Very few scientific inquiries are considered a closed book. Simpler folks have a hard time dealing with the idea that few things in this crazy world are absolute. It's how they're wired, i guess, they have a hard time dealing with an uncertain world. But for others of us, this is what is fascinating and compelling about exploration of this planet.

I think you've gotten a lot of mileage out of this "didn't exist before science". I know you're smart enough to know the poster just worded it clumsily at first, and you're going to ride that pony to the glue factory. It's probably nice to be so easily amused. At least you don't pretend it has anything to with a sincere interest in mature discussions of age-old questions.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208766 Jan 28, 2014
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Is God incapable of creating man without the undesirable traits of greed, selfishness, and stupidity?
Is God incapable for creating a heaven on Earth were sickness and disease don't exist?
God is supposed to have created all the parameter's concerning creation, he made all the rules, is all seeing, can see what will happen in the future, is all powerful, nothing is beyond his capabilities. Would you not do anything to protect your children for harm. If you had the ability to protect them for sickness and disease, would you not? And to sit idly by, no matter what the reasoning, and watch frightened innocent litotle children die horrible deaths from starvation is unimaginable, especially if you had the power to save them.
Capricious, uncaring, and NOT omnipotent, best describes this God.
Not everybody is His children

There is a difference between creation and children

And patents don't wrap their kids in plastic wrap and keep them in a safety bubble so I guess they don't do all they can

Life is about risk

But the one to follow wont be

Thems the rules

It's weird that unbelievers expect way more out of God who they don't believe in than believers. Or maybe that's the exact reason some are unbelievers?

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#208767 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
mmmmm..... crawfish....
You're either implying that people can believe in atheism and science or you're not. Which is it?
I don't think so, Alice, Still ain't interested in following you down the rabbit hole. You'll have to get others to play that game with ya.

Believe / believe in. The context informs which is appropriate in which proposition. In other words, it's a non-issue, and a red herring to draw away from that fact that you made a silly.

On topic: you pretend there's some foolish ironic significance to the fact that non-believers are interested in debating religion and god concepts, You toss that out there like it's a slam.

Yet you do the same thing in the other direction, so you have insight into your own question.

Backwash is a bitch, ain't it? ;)

Tell me when this thread is updated:

Subscribe Now Add to my Tracker

Add your comments below

Characters left: 4000

Please note by submitting this form you acknowledge that you have read the Terms of Service and the comment you are posting is in compliance with such terms. Be polite. Inappropriate posts may be removed by the moderator. Send us your feedback.

Top Stories Discussions

Title Updated Last By Comments
Prove there's a god. (Mar '08) 5 min It aint necessari... 765,523
Was 9/11 a conspiracy?? (Oct '07) 57 min AussieBobby 263,718
Why Should Jesus Love Me? (Feb '08) 1 hr Qu_innocence 603,725
Hot gays in Abu Dhabi (Nov '13) 1 hr Jan 1,192
Which is the Oldest Indian Language? Sanskrit V... (Jul '08) 1 hr NATIVE INDIAN 5,456
Israel's end is near, Ahmadinejad says (Jun '07) 2 hr MUQ1 37,661
Play "end of the word" (Jan '11) 3 hr andet1987 4,972
Roman Catholic church only true church, says Va... (Jul '07) 3 hr truth 555,197

Top Stories People Search

Addresses and phone numbers for FREE