Atheism requires as much faith as rel...

Atheism requires as much faith as religion?

There are 255484 comments on the Webbunny tumblelog story from Jul 18, 2009, titled Atheism requires as much faith as religion?. In it, Webbunny tumblelog reports that:

Atheism requires as much faith as religion? bearvspuma : The only problem with this rationalization is that ita s assuming all athiests are so because theya re intelligent in the ways of science and reasoning and all people that believe in a form of god are unintelligent.

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“Turning coffee into theorems”

Since: Dec 06

Trapped inside a Klein Bottle

#208764 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
How do you know that?
Care to name something that is natural but can not be observed.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Snowflakes is observable but not measurable, but exist nonetheless.
Counting individual snowflakes is not the only way to measure them. For example, you could weigh individual snowflakes and come up with an average.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Black holes are not observable OR measurable, but exist in nature.
Incorrect. For one thing, one can observe and measure the gravitational effects around the black hole. For a second thing, one can see the jets coming off of the disk of matter falling into the black hole. For a third thing, one can observe the Hawking radiation.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
Dreams are not measurable, but they exist.
Again, one can observe and measure the brain activity of a sleeper.
RiversideRedneck wrote:
DNA is only recently observable, but it existed without our knowledge of it.
Why do you give such criteria to God but not to other things?
"Believing" in DNA before it was observed would have been irrational, even though it turned out to actually exist. Believing in Bigfoot is irrational. If evidence of Bigfoot were to come to light, THEN believing in Bigfoot would not be irrational...but not before.(And, no, Buck is not evidence of Bigfoot.)

Your thinking is rather limited. Likely, you have never had to consider the nature of observations and measurement.

Judging from your earlier posts(referring to things like dark matter), I think it likely your position is..."I don't believe in anything until I lay eyes on it, except for God."

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#208765 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
There are plenty of things that are real that science cannot explain. More than just dreams or emotions.
The sun's corona is hotter than the surface.
90% of people are right-handed.
There is no explanation of the giant hurricane on Saturn, the one that won't go away.
Birds migrate to the same spot year after year with no map or compass.
Sleep.
The useless long neck of the giraffe.
Gravity.
The center of the earth is as hot as the sun.
In the Smokey Mountains, fireflies flash in unison.
Earthquake lights.
The Placebo effect.
The beginning of the universe.
Life exists.
I hope this doesn't ruin your faith that nothing exists unless science can explain it.
There are scientific explanations for most above, if not all. Fireflies flash in unison universally, males in the air, females on the ground. When two get in sync, it indicates a mate that is "sympatico". If many happen to do so at once, it's party time. Birds navigate by a combination of things, inc. sense of the earth's magnetic field and the angle and duration of sunlight. Earthquake lights are releases of static electricity. The giraffe evolved a long neck in order to reach the upper leaves, so it's certainly not "useless".

These are all explanations using the best information available at this time. They don't pretend to be complete and beyond further question. Very few scientific inquiries are considered a closed book. Simpler folks have a hard time dealing with the idea that few things in this crazy world are absolute. It's how they're wired, i guess, they have a hard time dealing with an uncertain world. But for others of us, this is what is fascinating and compelling about exploration of this planet.

I think you've gotten a lot of mileage out of this "didn't exist before science". I know you're smart enough to know the poster just worded it clumsily at first, and you're going to ride that pony to the glue factory. It's probably nice to be so easily amused. At least you don't pretend it has anything to with a sincere interest in mature discussions of age-old questions.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208766 Jan 28, 2014
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>Is God incapable of creating man without the undesirable traits of greed, selfishness, and stupidity?
Is God incapable for creating a heaven on Earth were sickness and disease don't exist?
God is supposed to have created all the parameter's concerning creation, he made all the rules, is all seeing, can see what will happen in the future, is all powerful, nothing is beyond his capabilities. Would you not do anything to protect your children for harm. If you had the ability to protect them for sickness and disease, would you not? And to sit idly by, no matter what the reasoning, and watch frightened innocent litotle children die horrible deaths from starvation is unimaginable, especially if you had the power to save them.
Capricious, uncaring, and NOT omnipotent, best describes this God.
Not everybody is His children

There is a difference between creation and children

And patents don't wrap their kids in plastic wrap and keep them in a safety bubble so I guess they don't do all they can

Life is about risk

But the one to follow wont be

Thems the rules

It's weird that unbelievers expect way more out of God who they don't believe in than believers. Or maybe that's the exact reason some are unbelievers?

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#208767 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
mmmmm..... crawfish....
You're either implying that people can believe in atheism and science or you're not. Which is it?
I don't think so, Alice, Still ain't interested in following you down the rabbit hole. You'll have to get others to play that game with ya.

Believe / believe in. The context informs which is appropriate in which proposition. In other words, it's a non-issue, and a red herring to draw away from that fact that you made a silly.

On topic: you pretend there's some foolish ironic significance to the fact that non-believers are interested in debating religion and god concepts, You toss that out there like it's a slam.

Yet you do the same thing in the other direction, so you have insight into your own question.

Backwash is a bitch, ain't it? ;)

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#208768 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>mmmmm..... crawfish....
Yeah buddy. Winter dreamin' about the first boil of the summer.......right about the time the sweet corn is comin' on.

oooooh son!
;)

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208770 Jan 28, 2014
Catcher1 wrote:
Sorry I'm unable to participate.
I'm working on a very thorny case.
If I prevail, drinks are on me.
Someone gave you some roses and a case of Zima?

I bet more than just drinks will be on you

:)
blacklagoon

Boston, MA

#208771 Jan 28, 2014
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>Not everybody is His children
There is a difference between creation and children
And patents don't wrap their kids in plastic wrap and keep them in a safety bubble so I guess they don't do all they can
Life is about risk
But the one to follow wont be
Thems the rules
It's weird that unbelievers expect way more out of God who they don't believe in than believers. Or maybe that's the exact reason some are unbelievers?
So are you saying God did NOT create humans, we are NOT considered "his children?" What is the difference between creation and children?

Of course you're taking a risk in the life you say will follow this one. You're taking the risk that the God you have been worshiping is the one you will face. What if you're wrong and you find yourself face to face with Vishnu, or Allah? Remember for all the thousands of Gods out there, they can't all be the right one!!

Those are "your" rules, they don't apply to millions upon millions of others who would say the same thing right back at ya.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208772 Jan 28, 2014
Buck Crick wrote:
<quoted text>
But your mind is NOT closed to a deity claim.
Though you preemptively rule it out.
Got it.
Wouldn't it be simpler if you just admitted the truth?
That exchange is why I called pseudo intellectualism. A child could see through the lies. But trying to dress it up and put on a show is way more important than an honest exchange. He thinks it comes off as clever or that somehow he is thinking on a level above other people. But all it really is at the end of the day us someone being stubborn and immature. And hardly something that requires intellect key alone a higher one.

I blame part of it on Topix though. Too many people post for a desired reaction from others. This place has fed that need and created the culture.

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#208773 Jan 28, 2014
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>So essentially God would intervene to strike down sinners in their tracks before they could commit a terrible crime?
Of course then we would never really know if the were going to commit the crime unless someone trusted God. Why do I have a feeling that type of justice wouldn't go over so well with the same people who complain now? Would you want God to take that role given you are an 'unbeliever'?
Hellz yeah! Skombolis, if he's demonstrated he's God, I ain't an unbeliever. That's the whole point.
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>And yes, any innocent suffering is sad. But there is a justice system in place. What is 100 years of a human life compared to eternity? That would be like man complaining earth justice wasn't swift enough unless we had a trial one minute after the arrest. People will pay for their crimes and victims will receive justice and be rewarded for their suffering

As for natural disasters, I mean obviously its a guess but isn't kind of the point that tomorrow is promised to no man? Life is short. It is fragile. It's unpredictable. All the more reason to live for the day, don't put off coming to God, etc.
When you were a believer, how did you reconcile it?
Oh, pretty much like you did.

But it remained one of those nagging doubts way back in the rational section of the brain library, that part we dasn't visit any too often. Mostly I didn't dwell on it. Wasn't fruitful to the faith, and all that. You know how it goes.

What is the span of a human life compared to eternity? Quite a bit to the individual if it's true this is our only go-round. I think this is one of the places we have to sublimate the flesh and blood behind those words, "a human life". We make it an abstract, generic "life" as a philosophical musing, without thinking of the physical heartbeat.

I don't know what God could do - I'm just throwing out a couple of ideas that it could do that would greatly benefit life without violating freewill in the least. The God of the Bible used to do signs like David Blaine on acid. Even Jesus said "I do this so that you might believe." Yes, he followed that up with, "Blessed are they that believe without seeing." OK, good for them, they can sit in the front pews. But he still did the signs for the rest of us, whom God made a little too rational for their own good, Biblically speaking. And he chastised Thomas for needing proof, but he didn''t condemn him for it. That's why he's my patron saint. ;)

Peace n' all.
HipG

“The future begins”

Since: Jul 07

every moment

#208775 Jan 28, 2014
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>Not everybody is His children
There is a difference between creation and children
And patents don't wrap their kids in plastic wrap and keep them in a safety bubble so I guess they don't do all they can
Life is about risk
But the one to follow wont be
Thems the rules

It's weird that unbelievers expect way more out of God who they don't believe in than believers. Or maybe that's the exact reason some are unbelievers?
Back up there. I don't know about you, but I don't expect anything out of an involved, father-concept God except protect the family in things beyond human control. We're perfectly capable of taking care of the rest.

Now contrast that against believers who beseech God to win a game, to find their keys, to pass a test, to get the blue car they wanted, to make it rain, to make it stop raining, to turn the tornado away where it ends up hitting the next neighborhood but Hallelujah, not ours. Thor Almighty! that "Educator" broad rejoiced because God allegedly killed a woman for chastising her for telling Christian stories in a public school. These are all real-life examples from topix. There are millions of prayers going up every moment for everything under the sun, and yet the starving children keep starving.

I just ask God to step up and make himself known, like he allegedly used to do. Do you remember why Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go? We don't know if it was his natural inclination or not, but we do know God purposely hardened his heart. Why would he do that, unless Pharaoh was inclined to let them go? He even wavered a couple times, and what happened? God hardened his heart some more. Why? So that God could perform signs and impress everybody. All we're asking is he quit hiding, take care of the natural disasters and settle the question of his existence. Life could go on pretty much like it does now, but without the need for flood insurance.

Just sayin' you might want to re-phrase that last there.

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#208776 Jan 28, 2014
_GRIM REAPER_ wrote:
<quoted text>1 has to with a bunch of cry babies that get him banned all the time cause they get proven wrong or they think somebody is "stalking" them, which is kind of dumb to think since these threads are all open forums, like you follow and post on different threads because they appeal to you, as do i, true, i do enjoy talking to some people more because i can relate to them, but that is the only reason.......
I haven't reported any of your socks yet, if that's your implication.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208777 Jan 28, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>
Hellz yeah! Skombolis, if he's demonstrated he's God, I ain't an unbeliever. That's the whole point.
<quoted text>Oh, pretty much like you did.
B him for it. That's why he's my patron saint. ;)
Peace n' all.EDITED FOR SPACE
HipG
I think at minimum though we see it is a dilemma how much man justice and free will would we want to give up to turn it over to God now and would the trade off be worth it. Would be even like it at all? It's not so simple. Everything IMO hinges on free will. Without that, what's the point? Just how I see it

As for the rest. Sure who doesn't wonder? I set it aside more out of the acceptance I'm never going to know than not wanting to deal with it. But yeah I don't know. It seems hard to imagine natural disasters are needed. But at the same time I don't think God intervenes nearly as much as most people. I think He pretty much drops us out of the best and tells us learn to fly. The different in the comparison being that I think He will always be there to strengthen us spiritually but I think He pretty much lets things run their course on Earth

The Bible says the devil is the god of this world but even that isn't the reason for some stuff IMO. It almost seems as if their is a cosmic rule book for lack of a better explanation. I mean, why live this life at all? Why tell someone about the faith if knowing and turning I'd worse than not knowing?

Who knows? Now some people might say that all these questions should push me away from the faith. And under a lot of circumstances it would create doubt. But there are two things I feel very comfortable in believing. The first is that God exists. I really have no doubt on that. And the second is that a lot of this stuff is beyond what mere mortals could ever hope to have the answers to.

I question pretty much everything. It is just how I am. I think about stuff to question and wonder about that a lot of people might never consider if they lived ten lifetimes. My brain is on pretty much a perpetual state of question. But somewhere along the line needing every answer is something that stopped driving me crazy. If there is one thing NA taught me it is that sometimes you just have to accept life on its terms.

And who knows, maybe we will be sharing a brew in that deluxe apartment in the sky some day? I will find out soon enough. Until then, my plan is to squeeze as much joy out of this life as I can.

(T) Peace

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208778 Jan 28, 2014
HipGnosis wrote:
<quoted text>Back up there. I don't know about you, but I don't expect anything out of an involved, father-concept God except protect the family in things beyond human control. We're perfectly capable of taking care of the rest.
Now contrast that against believers who beseech God to win a game, to find their keys, to pass a test, to get the blue car they wanted, to make it rain, to make it stop raining, to turn the tornado away where it ends up hitting the next neighborhood but Hallelujah, not ours. Thor Almighty! that "Educator" broad rejoiced because God allegedly killed a woman for chastising her for telling Christian stories in a public school. These are all real-life examples from topix. There are millions of prayers going up every moment for everything under the sun, and yet the starving children keep starving.
I just ask God to step up and make himself known, like he allegedly used to do. Do you remember why Pharaoh wouldn't let the Israelites go? We don't know if it was his natural inclination or not, but we do know God purposely hardened his heart. Why would he do that, unless Pharaoh was inclined to let them go? He even wavered a couple times, and what happened? God hardened his heart some more. Why? So that God could perform signs and impress everybody. All we're asking is he quit hiding, take care of the natural disasters and settle the question of his existence. Life could go on pretty much like it does now, but without the need for flood insurance.
Just sayin' you might want to re-phrase that last there.
Well I'm sure you remember he hardened what was already a hard heart with the Pharaoh.

Although in fairness that post was probably too much of a generalization. I did say 'some' for why maybe they don't believe but in reading it again it reads as if all unbelievers expected more but only some stopped believing because of it. To me, anybody that thought God wasn't carrying His weight would no longer believe but I didn't make that clear

And point taken about some believers as far as what they ask for but that is very different than what they may expect. Never hurts to ask but pretty understanding the answer to every prayer won't be yes is one of if not the biggest hurdle to faith IMO. I think it is a safe statement to say that if people got what they wanted even a slight majority of the time that the need for proof of God's existence would become way less pressing for a lot of people.

Your expectations are more reasonable than Lagoons (I actually just don't remember his exact name and don't wanna lose this post to check) who pretty much thinks we should have been born with Terminator bodies. But to me it is still part of the same thing. If people knew they wouldn't die by accident, how many people do you think would feel the crunch of the mortal timetable? I mean a lot of people depending on where they live in the world don't really need to worry about being murdered. Or even if they should, still wouldn't. The randomness of life is why we can't take it for granted. I'm not saying there has to be natural disasters but I can understand it.

Like Briggs would say in Shawshank Redemption...

Get busy living or get busy dying

Or maybe Carpe Diem would be a better movie line

Still, you get the idea:)

(T) Peace

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208779 Jan 28, 2014
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>So are you saying God did NOT create humans, we are NOT considered "his children?" What is the difference between creation and children?
Of course you're taking a risk in the life you say will follow this one. You're taking the risk that the God you have been worshiping is the one you will face. What if you're wrong and you find yourself face to face with Vishnu, or Allah? Remember for all the thousands of Gods out there, they can't all be the right one!!
Those are "your" rules, they don't apply to millions upon millions of others who would say the same thing right back at ya.
Sure it's a risk

Belief is not fact. If it was then it would not require much in the way of faith

Maybe I am wrong

But I don't think so.

Besides Im banking on my legendary charm to get me in whatever afterlife there is. Or I'll just debate whatever god it turns our to be until he gets fed up and just keys me in do he doesn't have to deal with me. I figure I'm good either way

:)

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208780 Jan 28, 2014
blacklagoon wrote:
<quoted text>So are you saying God did NOT create humans, we are NOT considered "his children?" What is the difference between creation and children?
Of course you're taking a risk in the life you say will follow this one. You're taking the risk that the God you have been worshiping is the one you will face. What if you're wrong and you find yourself face to face with Vishnu, or Allah? Remember for all the thousands of Gods out there, they can't all be the right one!!
Those are "your" rules, they don't apply to millions upon millions of others who would say the same thing right back at ya.
Forgot to answer the first part

Belief is the difference between creation and children

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#208781 Jan 28, 2014
The greatest fear a Christian should have is that the Jews are right.

The greatest fear a Muslim should have is that the Christians are right.

The greatest fear a Jew has is that Christians and Muslims exist.

Since: Mar 09

Location hidden

#208782 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
<quoted text>
There are plenty of things that are real that science cannot explain. More than just dreams or emotions.
The sun's corona is hotter than the surface.
90% of people are right-handed.
There is no explanation of the giant hurricane on Saturn, the one that won't go away.
Birds migrate to the same spot year after year with no map or compass.
Sleep.
The useless long neck of the giraffe.
Gravity.
The center of the earth is as hot as the sun.
In the Smokey Mountains, fireflies flash in unison.
Earthquake lights.
The Placebo effect.
The beginning of the universe.
Life exists.
I hope this doesn't ruin your faith that nothing exists unless science can explain it.
Isn't it like bumblebees that science can't explain how they fly?

Science...meh. Bunch of slackers! I'm still wait for a cute to the common cold!

:)

“"None shall pass"”

Since: Jul 11

There

#208783 Jan 28, 2014
Skombolis wrote:
<quoted text>Isn't it like bumblebees that science can't explain how they fly?
Science...meh. Bunch of slackers! I'm still wait for a cute to the common cold!
:)
Actually the flight of bumblebees (and many other insects) has been explained for a long time. The turbulence created by their four wings creates increased lift unavailable to two winged creatures like bats and birds.

It is a popular myth though.

Since: Jan 11

Location hidden

#208784 Jan 28, 2014
RiversideRedneck wrote:
"Batman is real, I own a few of his movies."
-Tide
It is your opinion that God isn't real.
Why can't you get that?
More unabashed dishonesty from the simpleton.

“Seventh son”

Since: Dec 10

Will Prevail

#208785 Jan 29, 2014
BenAdam wrote:
<quoted text>
Actually the flight of bumblebees (and many other insects) has been explained for a long time. The turbulence created by their four wings creates increased lift unavailable to two winged creatures like bats and birds.
It is a popular myth though.
Interesting article.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/05/...

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