native america
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BlackHeart

Redding, CA

#1 Jun 4, 2009
Here it is; A new forum to discuss Native America and all things Native. Let's talk about tribal governments, corruption in tribal councils, uncle barry and his 'new' lies to our people, Movies and social impact of negative stereotypes. Lets discuss books, ideas and anything else about Our people.
What did you think of the court ruling on the 'redskins' victory?

“No time like the present”

Since: Jul 08

to make it happen!

#3 Jun 4, 2009
Everyone born in the Americas is a native american.
YouCantReallySee Me

United States

#4 Jun 4, 2009
BlackHeart wrote:
Here it is; A new forum to discuss Native America and all things Native. Let's talk about tribal governments, corruption in tribal councils, uncle barry and his 'new' lies to our people, Movies and social impact of negative stereotypes. Lets discuss books, ideas and anything else about Our people.
What did you think of the court ruling on the 'redskins' victory?
I'm ALL up for discussing ALL of it!

Can we start with movies and the social impact of negative stereotypes? Just tried bringing that to the attention of a couple of idiots on another thread, but they're far too busying retaining and adding to their idiocy.

In case you didn't see it (and i don't know why you would have seen it because you DO have other things to do), the cartoonesque stereotype came up of the NA warrior tying his helpless victim to a wagonwheel and lighting the victim afire (during the heat of battle, no less)- that example having used to explain why Custer's men kept one bullet in the chamber to use on themselves ... you know, so they could avoid being a spinning fire exhibit - not because they were afraid of the righteous retribution of the red man 'cause they had it coming to them or something.

I asked how they thought that would even be possible?! How could one man, in the heat of battle, drag another (kicking and fighting) over to a wagon (likely guarded by the enemy), take the time to tie him to the wheel (while dodging enemy gunfire), spark a fire using only flint, steel and prairie grass, tear off enough planks from the wagon to get the blaze roaring, and cook his prisoner, ALL while continuing to fight the enemy off of himself AND protect his family?

Some there were of the opinion that this scenario was NOT a hollywood-ized, bad novel one; maintaining, instead, that it likely happened.*LMBO*

I love how incredibly talented our ancestors were, don't you? Not just "savage" and "bloodthirsty," but just damned **talented** in their multi-tasking of it, too!*L*
YouCantReallySee Me

United States

#5 Jun 4, 2009
Which brings this to mind .... if they will believe THAT kind of crap, why would they not believe it if one of us mentioned that, for example, Hawk came to visit and brought a message?
BlackHeart

Redding, CA

#6 Jun 5, 2009
Viki Witch wrote:
<quoted text>
how many tribes r there ?
There are well over five hundred registered tribes.'registered' means 'recognized by the US government.'
I've 'seen' you on other threads, mostly religious-based, right? just thought I'd mention it.
BlackHeart

Redding, CA

#7 Jun 5, 2009
Dr_Dirty wrote:
Everyone born in the Americas is a native american.
Of course, but Native American denotes the peoples that were here Before African-Americans, Italian-Americans, et cetera et cetera. anyway, you don't count because you weren't 'born', but hatched by a lizard-like creature.
BlackHeart

Redding, CA

#8 Jun 5, 2009
YouCantReallySeeMe wrote:
<quoted text>
I'm ALL up for discussing ALL of it!
Can we start with movies and the social impact of negative stereotypes? Just tried bringing that to the attention of a couple of idiots on another thread, but they're far too busying retaining and adding to their idiocy.
In case you didn't see it (and i don't know why you would have seen it because you DO have other things to do), the cartoonesque stereotype came up of the NA warrior tying his helpless victim to a wagonwheel and lighting the victim afire (during the heat of battle, no less)- that example having used to explain why Custer's men kept one bullet in the chamber to use on themselves ... you know, so they could avoid being a spinning fire exhibit - not because they were afraid of the righteous retribution of the red man 'cause they had it coming to them or something.
I asked how they thought that would even be possible?! How could one man, in the heat of battle, drag another (kicking and fighting) over to a wagon (likely guarded by the enemy), take the time to tie him to the wheel (while dodging enemy gunfire), spark a fire using only flint, steel and prairie grass, tear off enough planks from the wagon to get the blaze roaring, and cook his prisoner, ALL while continuing to fight the enemy off of himself AND protect his family?
Some there were of the opinion that this scenario was NOT a hollywood-ized, bad novel one; maintaining, instead, that it likely happened.*LMBO*
I love how incredibly talented our ancestors were, don't you? Not just "savage" and "bloodthirsty," but just damned **talented** in their multi-tasking of it, too!*L*
you must ber speaking of the classic,'duel at diablo', huh?
anyway, the tortures you speak of were all invented by whites. Native America thought that if a man was brave enough to make war on you, then he deserved a man's death. it was whites who brought all the tortures to the fore. most of the colorful things shown in movies were thought up by bored screenwriters.
case in point,'tied to a wagon-wheel and burned upside down'. Native America didn't know what a wheel was until whites used them to cross america.
oh, and speaking of racism, topix changed the title of this thread from all caps to small characters. HATEFUL of them in'it?

“No time like the present”

Since: Jul 08

to make it happen!

#9 Jun 6, 2009
BlackHeart wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course, but Native American denotes the peoples that were here Before African-Americans, Italian-Americans, et cetera et cetera. anyway, you don't count because you weren't 'born', but hatched by a lizard-like creature.
Wow, hey. That's so damned funny! I'm busting a gut right now! Tell us more! Always love to hear comedy relief from the short bus section.

“No time like the present”

Since: Jul 08

to make it happen!

#10 Jun 6, 2009
BlackHeart wrote:
<quoted text>
Of course, but Native American denotes the peoples that were here Before African-Americans, Italian-Americans, et cetera et cetera. anyway, you don't count because you weren't 'born', but hatched by a lizard-like creature.
They're no more native than the rest of us. Your arrogance is astounding.
BlackHeart

Redding, CA

#11 Jun 6, 2009
Dr_Dirty wrote:
<quoted text>
Wow, hey. That's so damned funny! I'm busting a gut right now! Tell us more! Always love to hear comedy relief from the short bus section.
Steal that line from your momms? she probably told you that one every day, huh?
BlackHeart

Redding, CA

#12 Jun 6, 2009
Dr_Dirty wrote:
<quoted text>They're no more native than the rest of us. Your arrogance is astounding.
Arrogance? HAH! Your insecurity would be laughable if it weren't So Pathetic!
YouCantReallySee Me

United States

#13 Jun 6, 2009
BlackHeart wrote:
<quoted text>
you must ber speaking of the classic,'duel at diablo', huh?
anyway, the tortures you speak of were all invented by whites. Native America thought that if a man was brave enough to make war on you, then he deserved a man's death. it was whites who brought all the tortures to the fore. most of the colorful things shown in movies were thought up by bored screenwriters.
case in point,'tied to a wagon-wheel and burned upside down'. Native America didn't know what a wheel was until whites used them to cross america.
oh, and speaking of racism, topix changed the title of this thread from all caps to small characters. HATEFUL of them in'it?
I think that was damned HATEFUL of 'em. Caused me a bit of difficulty finding it, too.

Don't know anything about 'duel at diablo;' those nimrods are the one that brought up the wagonwheel burning torture scenario. I couldn't get the bozos on that other thread to even reconsider of any of their carefully nourished, utterly idiotic ideas and incorrect information about NAs, no matter how many links i provided to them.

Couldn't get them to answer a single question, either ... and the thread was about whether or not NAs are cowards.*LOL* How cowardly IS a coward who's too afraid to even answer a question?

Reading Sherman Alexie's "Ten Little Indians" right now and on a mission to read (or re-read) everything he's written.

Have you read "Neither Wolf Nor Dog?"
YouCantReallySee Me

United States

#14 Jun 6, 2009
Dr_Dirty wrote:
<quoted text>They're no more native than the rest of us. Your arrogance is astounding.
BlackHeart is completely correct and you're semi-correct.

If you were born in the U.S., then you're native-BORN in the U.S.(you're native-born into the COUNTRY), but you're not NATIVE American (we're Native to the LAND). The land was here long before the country. Can you distinguish the difference?

You're quite arrogant, yourself. But, are you cowardly?
lckHeart

Redding, CA

#15 Jun 9, 2009
YouCantReallySeeMe wrote:
<quoted text>
I think that was damned HATEFUL of 'em. Caused me a bit of difficulty finding it, too.
Don't know anything about 'duel at diablo;' those nimrods are the one that brought up the wagonwheel burning torture scenario. I couldn't get the bozos on that other thread to even reconsider of any of their carefully nourished, utterly idiotic ideas and incorrect information about NAs, no matter how many links i provided to them.
Couldn't get them to answer a single question, either ... and the thread was about whether or not NAs are cowards.*LOL* How cowardly IS a coward who's too afraid to even answer a question?
Reading Sherman Alexie's "Ten Little Indians" right now and on a mission to read (or re-read) everything he's written.
Have you read "Neither Wolf Nor Dog?"
Hey Love. Sorry I took so long responding, but I'm having more of the same trouble with my computer, thanks to my 16yo. She turned off the protection system and we got SUPER infested with viruses and spyware. I think that this time she was angry because the sun didn't come up on the side she wanted it to.
'nimrods', huh? I prefer 'dinks'. and the movie,'duel at diablo' is the first one that jumped to mind, 1. because I just saw it the other day, and 2. it was the Big torture scene in the movie. dennis weaver got his head baked with the technique and survived, long enough to 'nobly' take his own life with jimmy garner's gun.
I think I read that story. have a copy of 'ten' somewhere and I did read it cover to cover when I bought it. sherman is weird. all his In'Dans are chickenshit and weak. probably why whites love his work so much. I was discussing this with my bookseller, and he was surprised by the weakness of the characters as well. Cal finds books for me when I can't get them anywhere else. gets expensive at times, but what the hay. I don't drink as much as I did when younger, so I do have a little more money now. nyuk nyuk. I remember when I got my hands on 'Indian Killer', thinking that sherman might have gotten it right for the first time. Nope.
BTW, did I tell you that I finished 'Silent Warrior'? and am now working on a new novel called,'Free Fire Zone'. dug out my copy of the constitution and am researching facts for a new story called,'Theocracy'.
I have to find out when the teaching staff returns for the new school year before taking the next step for my project. not to mention that MP is on vacation, and Summer is incommunicado at this time.
BlackHeart

Redding, CA

#16 Jun 9, 2009
as you can see, I'm Still having trouble with the damn thing. Hit the 'send' button before noticing that only half the keys hit registered. no, it isn'yt the connection. checked it before writing this.
oh well.
YouCantReallySee Me

United States

#17 Jun 9, 2009
lckHeart wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Love. Sorry I took so long responding, but I'm having more of the same trouble with my computer, thanks to my 16yo. She turned off the protection system and we got SUPER infested with viruses and spyware. I think that this time she was angry because the sun didn't come up on the side she wanted it to.
'nimrods', huh? I prefer 'dinks'. and the movie,'duel at diablo' is the first one that jumped to mind, 1. because I just saw it the other day, and 2. it was the Big torture scene in the movie. dennis weaver got his head baked with the technique and survived, long enough to 'nobly' take his own life with jimmy garner's gun.
I think I read that story. have a copy of 'ten' somewhere and I did read it cover to cover when I bought it. sherman is weird. all his In'Dans are chickenshit and weak. probably why whites love his work so much. I was discussing this with my bookseller, and he was surprised by the weakness of the characters as well. Cal finds books for me when I can't get them anywhere else. gets expensive at times, but what the hay. I don't drink as much as I did when younger, so I do have a little more money now. nyuk nyuk. I remember when I got my hands on 'Indian Killer', thinking that sherman might have gotten it right for the first time. Nope.
BTW, did I tell you that I finished 'Silent Warrior'? and am now working on a new novel called,'Free Fire Zone'. dug out my copy of the constitution and am researching facts for a new story called,'Theocracy'.
I have to find out when the teaching staff returns for the new school year before taking the next step for my project. not to mention that MP is on vacation, and Summer is incommunicado at this time.
Just sent you an email that i hope is helpful.

Re: Alexie - oh, yeah, his stuff is weird, but his dark sense of humor can't be denied. That said, i can't help but believe that he has a strong reason for the weakness of his characters, so what is it? I don't believe it is just to please non-Native readers; it has to be for some other reason. I have a theory, maybe.

You did *not* tell me you'd finished 'Silent Warrior.' I will be anxious to read it!

Buying alcohol is almost always wasted money; buying books is virtually never wasted money!:o) Is there such a thing as too many books?

Just finished 'Tracks' by Louise Erdrich. I won't say she isn't a good writer, but that was a really weird book and the ending made me mad. But, since it's the first in a series of 4, i'm hoping the next one will un-mad me.*L* There was nothing at all weak about her characters! A couple of them were almost too strong.

I promise never to watch 'Duel at Diablo' unless i'm laid up with the flu and need a really good laugh. Dennis Weaver with a baked head would probably make me laugh.
BlackHeart

Redding, CA

#18 Jun 10, 2009
YouCantReallySeeMe wrote:
<quoted text>
Just sent you an email that i hope is helpful.
Re: Alexie - oh, yeah, his stuff is weird, but his dark sense of humor can't be denied. That said, i can't help but believe that he has a strong reason for the weakness of his characters, so what is it? I don't believe it is just to please non-Native readers; it has to be for some other reason. I have a theory, maybe.
You did *not* tell me you'd finished 'Silent Warrior.' I will be anxious to read it!
Buying alcohol is almost always wasted money; buying books is virtually never wasted money!:o) Is there such a thing as too many books?
Just finished 'Tracks' by Louise Erdrich. I won't say she isn't a good writer, but that was a really weird book and the ending made me mad. But, since it's the first in a series of 4, i'm hoping the next one will un-mad me.*L* There was nothing at all weak about her characters! A couple of them were almost too strong.
I promise never to watch 'Duel at Diablo' unless i'm laid up with the flu and need a really good laugh. Dennis Weaver with a baked head would probably make me laugh.
'Duel' was typical sixties western, with In'Dans being bloodthirsty no-nothings (commonly known as republicans these days) and the hero wanting revenge for his 'breed' wife's killing.
Didja ever see the Steve McQueen movie,'Nevada Smith'? had Karl Malden as the big baddie. was surprised at how Good old Big-Nose was in the part. another ho-hummer script, but not nearly as bad as burt reynolds 'Navajo Joe', which only gets points for spelling 'Navajo' correctly.
as bad as these were, they wer all miles ahead of the crap cranked out in the fifties.
ddid it ever get better? not really. think of 'a man called horse', or 'horsie' as I call it. if someone in the movie told ricky harris to 'spank his monkey' he probably would have used a cactus branch to complete the task. Always had a problem with the 'SunDance Ceremony', only because it was based upon the english,'Maypole Dance' or whatever it was called. You know, the one where children hold ribbons and dance around a pole, every other child going in the opposite ditrection, braiding the ribbon around said pole in the process. In'Dans 'suffering' for their people. Hell, to suffer for your people, most of us just have to live through the day!
BlackHeart

Redding, CA

#19 Jun 10, 2009
YouCantReallySeeMe wrote:
Which brings this to mind .... if they will believe THAT kind of crap, why would they not believe it if one of us mentioned that, for example, Hawk came to visit and brought a message?
Careful with your words, Young Lady. Hawk is My messenger.
I couldn't find my copy, er, Copies, of 'Ten', had both hard and soft cover editions. Don't know what happened to them. But I did find 'The Toughest Indian in the World'.(his spelling, not mine) The first story,'assimilation' was boring, and the second, for which the book was titled, was ugly And stupid. We have enough trouble dealing with the rest of the world without having our toughest labeled as Buttmonkeys.
makes me wonder if sherman alexie is actually dead and some white guy is using his photo and name to write under? critics say he is 'tearing down the stereotype', maybe, But I prefer the 'strong silent type' over 'weak inneffectual buttmonkey'.
my friend in Hollywood, her singing name is 'Ambrosia', criticised my work for having too much drinking in them. I told her that of the fifty (at the time) stories, seven of them were around bars and booze. The total stories have grown, and the link between alcohol and our culture has increased in the stories themselves, but it is still a realistic account of Native life.
I have seven stories about little boys, a group of children who get into 'little boy mischief' and they have nothing to do with booze in any way. I've done adventure stories, slice-of-life stories, and a whole contingency of stories that I call,'The Lotus Room' stories, which tell the tale of nine different people who frequent the bar, and only One of them is Native.'Free Fire Zone' is a revenge story about a Native and it isn't submerged in alcohol, just anger and a need for Justice.
yeah, I think I posted all this before.
YouCantReallySee Me

United States

#20 Jun 10, 2009
BlackHeart wrote:
<quoted text>
'Duel' was typical sixties western, with In'Dans being bloodthirsty no-nothings (commonly known as republicans these days) and the hero wanting revenge for his 'breed' wife's killing.
Didja ever see the Steve McQueen movie,'Nevada Smith'? had Karl Malden as the big baddie. was surprised at how Good old Big-Nose was in the part. another ho-hummer script, but not nearly as bad as burt reynolds 'Navajo Joe', which only gets points for spelling 'Navajo' correctly.
as bad as these were, they wer all miles ahead of the crap cranked out in the fifties.
ddid it ever get better? not really. think of 'a man called horse', or 'horsie' as I call it. if someone in the movie told ricky harris to 'spank his monkey' he probably would have used a cactus branch to complete the task. Always had a problem with the 'SunDance Ceremony', only because it was based upon the english,'Maypole Dance' or whatever it was called. You know, the one where children hold ribbons and dance around a pole, every other child going in the opposite ditrection, braiding the ribbon around said pole in the process. In'Dans 'suffering' for their people. Hell, to suffer for your people, most of us just have to live through the day!
The only ones of those movies that i've seen are the horsie ones ... and the sundance "thing" was utterly ridiculous. Aside from that, i think that (considering the time it was made) someone was making a stab at making an effort to *try* to get some vague, vaporous, half-formed across by
showing that the wealthy-life-of-ease-lord-of-t he-manor was willing to forsake all of that for a more "pure" lifestyle. However, IF that is the case, all it did was bolster up the stereotype of "noble Indian."

And that's just it ... all of IT ... not people, never people; just one stereotype after, atop, and overlapping another.
Your last sentence got a good laugh outta me!
YouCantReallySee Me

United States

#21 Jun 10, 2009
BlackHeart wrote:
<quoted text>
Careful with your words, Young Lady. Hawk is My messenger.
I couldn't find my copy, er, Copies, of 'Ten', had both hard and soft cover editions. Don't know what happened to them. But I did find 'The Toughest Indian in the World'.(his spelling, not mine) The first story,'assimilation' was boring, and the second, for which the book was titled, was ugly And stupid. We have enough trouble dealing with the rest of the world without having our toughest labeled as Buttmonkeys.
makes me wonder if sherman alexie is actually dead and some white guy is using his photo and name to write under? critics say he is 'tearing down the stereotype', maybe, But I prefer the 'strong silent type' over 'weak inneffectual buttmonkey'.
my friend in Hollywood, her singing name is 'Ambrosia', criticised my work for having too much drinking in them. I told her that of the fifty (at the time) stories, seven of them were around bars and booze. The total stories have grown, and the link between alcohol and our culture has increased in the stories themselves, but it is still a realistic account of Native life.
I have seven stories about little boys, a group of children who get into 'little boy mischief' and they have nothing to do with booze in any way. I've done adventure stories, slice-of-life stories, and a whole contingency of stories that I call,'The Lotus Room' stories, which tell the tale of nine different people who frequent the bar, and only One of them is Native.'Free Fire Zone' is a revenge story about a Native and it isn't submerged in alcohol, just anger and a need for Justice.
yeah, I think I posted all this before.
That is why i used Hawk as an example - because he is messenger for many. Most people won't believe that for a minute, but they have no trouble believing baked-head torture scenes in bad movies. IMHO, it's for a lot of reasons. For example, believing in baked-head makes them feel better about their perceived superiority to make up for their lack because they can't hear the messages of Hawk; because they don't hear what is on the wind or what a tree might have to say, ad infinitum. I think many still fear because they can't understand ... they KNOW *something* is there that they can't understand ... it's just much more convenient and face-saving to put that fear at the level of a baked head from a stupid movie than it is to admit not understanding something.

Or maybe it's because baking a head is something they easily understand because it speaks more clearly to their base selves?

Oh, i think Alexie is doing his best to tear down the stereotypes, alright, but he's doing it in a very ill-advised manner.

So, what are the stereotypes? We've got you screaming, blood-thirsty, torture-loving "savage;" there's the "noble Indian" who wants always and only to live as one with nature; then, there's the NDNs who are sitting around just waiting for some non-Native to stroll by so s/he can fling out some of that inherent wisdom all In'dans possess. We can't forget the "drunk," of course - that one is always around. So, what the hell is it that Alexie wants to get rid of?

In "Ten," all of his characters aren't just weak, they're also Grade A nutcases. Why would he portray a bunch of nutcases in order to level the playing field and make In'dans "human" and less stereotyped? Because so many non-Natives are nutcases? And i'm curious why he has to cheapen ceremonies, too? That's a real puzzle for me.

Your stories sound better.

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