“let's do this thang!”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#435457 Jan 14, 2013
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text>Clay is a malleable substance. It is plastic in that it can be made into many different objects. It can be made into things useful for everyday life such as bowls, jugs, and bricks.
The potter makes the objects and fires them. It is up to the end user to decide how to use them.
A bowl can be used to serve up poisoned porridge or nourishing soup. A jug may hold acid or delicious lemonade. A brick may be used to stone your wife and children or build a house in which they may live comfortably.
You forget that without the clay, the potter would be just as empty of accomplishments as clay would be without the potter.
In other words, each are equally valuable.
In the case of God being the potter, it would mean he only makes the vessels and goods from available material, or clay. The end use is not at his discretion.
Each human being is the end user of life. We can provide a nourishing bowl of soup to a stranger or serve him poisoned soup until he dies or realizes what you're doing and goes to someone who has something nourishing and healing for him.
You can serve lemonade or acid. Acid will damage the person and leave them bitter toward you forever. Or, you can serve lemonade sweetened with honey and have him ask you for the recipe.
You can stone your wife, children and neighbors for what you believe they are doing wrong, or you can build a house where all are welcome.
It's all up to each individual.
When you choose to use the vessels in a way that makes others run from you, you will never be asked for a recipe. You'll never become a friend. You'll never be able to share anything else because you will not be trusted to do so.
You co-create the world with your deeds, words and thoughts. Not a single human being can manage to always use honey every time they speak. Not a single human being can manage to love every other person, as we do not have the capacity to see within their minds. Not a single human being can manage to build every house to be a welcoming place with a fire of kindness always burning.
But we can manage not to stone people with the bricks of hate. Bricks that were fired with the intent of providing comfort can be used for many other things not so pleasant.
All we can do is try to understand how to use the utensils and bricks in the most productive and compassionate way.
It is not up to your God or anyone else's to do this work. It is up to each individual.
When you realize this, you can change and truly be 'born again'.
you're gonna hafta answer to God for His use of this analogy since He's the One who gave it to jeremiah to explain it to the children of israel....

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#435458 Jan 14, 2013
NoStress4me wrote:
<quoted text>
Hey Wildride, good to read you! Just asking him to see if he has asked himself these questions.
Oh I know. My questions to him are largely rhetorical too. He seems pretty bullet-proof logic-wise though.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#435459 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
go figure out what 'should the lump of clay say to the Potter "i have no need of you"' means and then maybe we'll have a basis for communication regarding this subject:)
There isn't much to figure out there. The created shall not say to the creator that the latter isn't necessary. However, have you considered the possibility that a deity could create you yet not be dependent on your belief in it? Indeed, it's rather illogical that an omnipotent deity *would* care whether you did or not.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#435460 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
can you name one that began prior to 'in the beginning'?
the first false religion that i know of began when adam & eve put on fig leaves (first pagan costume) & attempted to hide from God.
There are many mythologies which predate the Jews. Try reading the Epic of Gilgamesh for starters. The Jews did, and incorporated parts of it into their own myths. In fact, that was back when Jews were still polytheistic.

“let's do this thang!”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#435461 Jan 14, 2013
it's really kinda fun coming to this hornets nest and giving y'all something to swarm over for weeks!

you don't hafta thank me for keeping this thread alive, i know that you secretly appreciate me for it;)

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#435462 Jan 14, 2013
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text> You will not get an answer. Rather, you will get more circle dances and condemnations with a large dose of 'I'm the great teacher'. Bah, humbug.
Oh I know that. I gave up on having a rational conversation with that one a long time ago. Now I just use to keep in practice.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#435463 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
WTF is it that you believe, AGAIN?
That's the problem with religion: there is no objective proof, and thus one is as good as another. Problematic, no?

“let's do this thang!”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#435464 Jan 14, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
There isn't much to figure out there. The created shall not say to the creator that the latter isn't necessary. However, have you considered the possibility that a deity could create you yet not be dependent on your belief in it? Indeed, it's rather illogical that an omnipotent deity *would* care whether you did or not.
of course i'm aware that God is not dependent upon me or my belief in Him. BUT what kind of relationship could we have if it wasn't based on belief/trust? you see, unbelief in the obvious is merely an obstinant denial because of an offense that's coming between 2 individuals. i.e., the angry wife says to the husband "i'm going to pretend you're not there and just ignore you".

because of Jesus' finished work on the cross, there is NOTHING in the way between you and God the Father. why are you acting in unbelief as tho there were???

“let's do this thang!”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#435465 Jan 14, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
There are many mythologies which predate the Jews. Try reading the Epic of Gilgamesh for starters. The Jews did, and incorporated parts of it into their own myths. In fact, that was back when Jews were still polytheistic.
umm, Bible history predates the jews. abraham was not a jew and you can read all about his heritage from he to noah and from noah to adam.

“let's do this thang!”

Since: Aug 10

Location hidden

#435466 Jan 14, 2013
wilderide wrote:
<quoted text>
That's the problem with religion: there is no objective proof, and thus one is as good as another. Problematic, no?
it's really pretty easy to figure out which is the true God; just listen for the Name that's blasphemed by the fallen/hating world!

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#435467 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
of course i'm aware that God is not dependent upon me or my belief in Him. BUT what kind of relationship could we have if it wasn't based on belief/trust?
A relationship based largely on fact would be alot stronger. I guess your God just likes to play head-games.
you see, unbelief in the obvious is merely an obstinant denial because of an offense that's coming between 2 individuals.
If it's so obvious, why does most of the world not see it? For that matter, why do Christians spend so much time bickering with each other?
i.e., the angry wife says to the husband "i'm going to pretend you're not there and just ignore you".
because of Jesus' finished work on the cross, there is NOTHING in the way between you and God the Father. why are you acting in unbelief as tho there were???
Well, as I've said before, if Jesus already paid my debt, then I have no further responsibility to it.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#435468 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
umm, Bible history predates the jews. abraham was not a jew and you can read all about his heritage from he to noah and from noah to adam.
The Bible tells a story of a time before it was written, but the fact remains that much of it's mythology was borrowed from neighboring cultures which predated it.

“Credulity is not a virtue”

Since: Apr 09

San Francisco

#435469 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
it's really pretty easy to figure out which is the true God; just listen for the Name that's blasphemed by the fallen/hating world!
You mean like the way you reject every god except one?

Congratulations Waaas, you just became the biggest polytheist in history! LOL.

“xcntrik.wordpres s.com”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#435470 Jan 14, 2013
NoStress4me wrote:
<quoted text>
Thank you for the link X. Little bits that caught my attention:
Christianity’s focus has long been about ushering in God’s kingdom “on Earth, not just in heaven,” Borg says.
“Christianity’s goal is not to escape from this world. It loves this world and seeks to change it for the better,” he writes.
“When Christians develop their own private language for one another, they forget how Jesus made faith accessible to ordinary people, he says.
“Speaking Christian can become a way of suggesting a kind of spiritual status that others don’t have,” he says.“It communicates a kind of spiritual elitism that holds the spiritually ‘unwashed’ at arm’s length."
By that time, they’ve reached the final stage of speaking Christian - they've become spiritual snobs.”
I think I am going to pick this one up, sounds very interesting.
I have read a couple of Marcus Borg's books. I would say that anything with his name on it will likely be a good read.

Now he'll put you to sleep listening to him speak because he talks in a monotone voice with little emotional inflection. But if you can stay awake, you can learn some good stuff.

Beuller. Beuller. Beuller

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#435471 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
umm, Bible history predates the jews. abraham was not a jew and you can read all about his heritage from he to noah and from noah to adam.
Oh, you mean the unsubstantiated portion of the "history" that the bible asserts? Yeah, read it, but I have found a hundred more sources that contradict it ... so meh.

“xcntrik.wordpres s.com”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#435472 Jan 14, 2013
Crazy apocalyptics, having no idea what the scripture they quote-mine actually references.
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
...when so-called 'peace' is made in the world, but God is kicked out of its ideology...
Puny god.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#435473 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
i'll answer your question if you answer mine:
in retrospect, who do you think were the more effective Christians in germany circa 30's - 40's; the wishy washy hand-wringing lutherans who thought their vocation was to smile and be friendly and who were afraid to speak-out when the nazi party was developing - or, the confessing church led by deitrich bonehoefer, who's members became opposed by the lutherans, persecuted, imprisoned and killed by the nazis???
What did Deitrich Bonehoefer's resistance to Nazi's change? What did Christianity change at all for the Jews who were killed?

You're reading books that gloify a man for his anti-Nazi stance, when it did nothing to change anything. It's just another book of apologetics written by another Christian to draw you in without thinking.

He was hung by the Nazis for his views.

While it is honorable to take a stand against the Nazis or any force like them, it doesn't mean that he made a change. He didn't. So his stance did no more good than those you call 'wishy-washy, hand-wringing liberals', as you indicate NS is by your post.

She is far from wishy-washy. I've never once seen her as a hand-wringing type of person, though I have seen you and your fundie brotherhood in that light. If by liberal, you mean following the teachings of Jesus and never losing her faith while being called names by those of her own belief system, then I'd have to say that would be right on target.

Congratulations. One thing right in a post of yours is almost unimaginable, but there it is.

“xcntrik.wordpres s.com”

Since: Mar 07

Location hidden

#435474 Jan 14, 2013
NoStress4me wrote:
<quoted text>
<quoted text>
I find it interesting (as well as odd) that your two posts above, reminded of this scene in Clash of the Titans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =-6eVxccWohUXX
It has been a while since I attended a class on Greek mythology. I guess need a refresher course to understand why I personally read a link between what you wrote and this movie based on Greek mythology. <<shrugs>>
It's all Greek to me. Apocalypticism has its roots in Hellenistic thought.

Good catch.

Clash and Wrath were both good flicks.

“Live Love Laugh”

Since: Aug 07

Rings of Saturn Emporium

#435475 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
i'll answer your question if you answer mine:
in retrospect, who do you think were the more effective Christians in germany circa 30's - 40's; the wishy washy hand-wringing lutherans who thought their vocation was to smile and be friendly and who were afraid to speak-out when the nazi party was developing - or, the confessing church led by deitrich bonehoefer, who's members became opposed by the lutherans, persecuted, imprisoned and killed by the nazis???
By the way, you never answer questions. I've seen you tell other people before that you would answer their question if they answered yours first, but never follow up on your promise to do so. Your promises are worthless. You do this questioning thing because you have no answers and use it as a diversion hoping the person will forget the question they asked you after they answer your question.

You yourself are as worthless a piece of human flesh as has ever darkened the hallowed halls of WINLAC.

“I Am No One Else”

Since: Apr 12

Seattle

#435476 Jan 14, 2013
waaasssuuup wrote:
<quoted text>
it's really pretty easy to figure out which is the true God; just listen for the Name that's blasphemed by the fallen/hating world!
So Zeus is the true god, got it.

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