Why I’m no longer a Christian

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432951 Jan 4, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting that you would choose Luke's mention of Mary and Martha. Are these women Mary and Martha of Bethany? GoLuke does not say where the house is supposed to be, though based on the point in the narative, it would appear likely the place was somewhere in Galilee rather than Bethany, just out side of Jerusalem, where GoJohn's narrative places them. Some apologists claim they moved after the story in Luke and before they are mentioned in John.
Having said that, most experts probably hold just as you do: GoLuke's story is about the same characters as GoJohn's Mary and Martha of Bethany regardless of the apparent discrepancy in location.
Yet here's the problem: Why doesn't Luke's author mention at the very least that these women are the sisters of Lazarus -- if they are the M&Ms of Bethany? That's an important connection that GoJohn makes that likely would not be overlooked by GoLuke's author.
And whether we have two sets of M&Ms or one, why is Lazarus' story missing in Matthew, Mark, and in Luke? It seems to me, aside from the claimed resurrection of Jesus, there is no more important miracle in Jesus' putative ministery. Indeed, according to John's author, Lazarus had been dead four days, and his sister worried about the stink that would come from his rotting corpse if his tomb were unsealed. That was a heck of a miracle.
Even GoLuke's story regarding Jesus raising the widow’s Son in Nain cannot be so important, since the son has yet to be burried. And the same is true of Jairus' daughter. Though the synoptic accounts conflict somewhat, she dies juust before or just after Jairus asks for Jesus' help. But even more importantly, neither the widow's son nor Jairus' daughter are the cause of Jesus' own demise, as Lazarus is, according to GoJohn. John 11 and 12 would have us believe the priests decided to kill both Jesus and Lazarus because of this miracle.
Interestingly, Luke's author doesn't mention Lazarus of Bethany but takes time to tell the parable of Lazarus and Dives. This Lazarus presumably is a fictional character invented to tell a parable. Oddly, Luke's author is the only gospel writer in the canon to attach a name to a character in any parable. And Lazarus, in the Lazarus and Dives parable, is the only time Luke's author does so.(Dives is not a name actually used in the parable.) Why unconventionally name the fictional Lazarus in a parable but ignore the ostensibly real Lazarus, who's healing supposedly leads to Jesus' execution?
What's up with all that?
Jesus Comforts the Sisters of Lazarus

On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. Now Bethany was less than two miles[b] from Jerusalem, and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
“Lord,” Martha said to Jesus,“if you had been here, my brother would not have died. But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.”
Jesus said to her,“Your brother will rise again.”

Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead

Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance.“Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man,“by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
Then Jesus said,“Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said,“Father, I thank you that you have heard me. I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice,“Lazarus, come out!” The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them,“Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”

Peace <3

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432952 Jan 4, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting that you would choose Luke's mention of Mary and Martha. Are these women Mary and Martha of Bethany? GoLuke does not say where the house is supposed to be, though based on the point in the narative, it would appear likely the place was somewhere in Galilee rather than Bethany, just out side of Jerusalem, where GoJohn's narrative places them. Some apologists claim they moved after the story in Luke and before they are mentioned in John.
Having said that, most experts probably hold just as you do: GoLuke's story is about the same characters as GoJohn's Mary and Martha of Bethany regardless of the apparent discrepancy in location.
Yet here's the problem: Why doesn't Luke's author mention at the very least that these women are the sisters of Lazarus -- if they are the M&Ms of Bethany? That's an important connection that GoJohn makes that likely would not be overlooked by GoLuke's author.
And whether we have two sets of M&Ms or one, why is Lazarus' story missing in Matthew, Mark, and in Luke? It seems to me, aside from the claimed resurrection of Jesus, there is no more important miracle in Jesus' putative ministery. Indeed, according to John's author, Lazarus had been dead four days, and his sister worried about the stink that would come from his rotting corpse if his tomb were unsealed. That was a heck of a miracle.
Even GoLuke's story regarding Jesus raising the widow’s Son in Nain cannot be so important, since the son has yet to be burried. And the same is true of Jairus' daughter. Though the synoptic accounts conflict somewhat, she dies juust before or just after Jairus asks for Jesus' help. But even more importantly, neither the widow's son nor Jairus' daughter are the cause of Jesus' own demise, as Lazarus is, according to GoJohn. John 11 and 12 would have us believe the priests decided to kill both Jesus and Lazarus because of this miracle.
Interestingly, Luke's author doesn't mention Lazarus of Bethany but takes time to tell the parable of Lazarus and Dives. This Lazarus presumably is a fictional character invented to tell a parable. Oddly, Luke's author is the only gospel writer in the canon to attach a name to a character in any parable. And Lazarus, in the Lazarus and Dives parable, is the only time Luke's author does so.(Dives is not a name actually used in the parable.) Why unconventionally name the fictional Lazarus in a parable but ignore the ostensibly real Lazarus, who's healing supposedly leads to Jesus' execution?
What's up with all that?
I agree, it was indeed a heck of a miracle, I love Jesus. Yeah it seem the Jews did want to kill them because of this particular miracle, maybe because Jesus got a lot more attention by that time?
Luke's parable.

“There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him,‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
“But Abraham replied,‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ Luke 16:19-26
TBC...

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432953 Jan 4, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
Interesting that you would choose Luke's mention of Mary and Martha. Are these women Mary and Martha of Bethany? GoLuke does not say where the house is supposed to be, though based on the point in the narative, it would appear likely the place was somewhere in Galilee rather than Bethany, just out side of Jerusalem, where GoJohn's narrative places them. Some apologists claim they moved after the story in Luke and before they are mentioned in John.
Having said that, most experts probably hold just as you do: GoLuke's story is about the same characters as GoJohn's Mary and Martha of Bethany regardless of the apparent discrepancy in location.
Yet here's the problem: Why doesn't Luke's author mention at the very least that these women are the sisters of Lazarus -- if they are the M&Ms of Bethany? That's an important connection that GoJohn makes that likely would not be overlooked by GoLuke's author.
And whether we have two sets of M&Ms or one, why is Lazarus' story missing in Matthew, Mark, and in Luke? It seems to me, aside from the claimed resurrection of Jesus, there is no more important miracle in Jesus' putative ministery. Indeed, according to John's author, Lazarus had been dead four days, and his sister worried about the stink that would come from his rotting corpse if his tomb were unsealed. That was a heck of a miracle.
Even GoLuke's story regarding Jesus raising the widow’s Son in Nain cannot be so important, since the son has yet to be burried. And the same is true of Jairus' daughter. Though the synoptic accounts conflict somewhat, she dies juust before or just after Jairus asks for Jesus' help. But even more importantly, neither the widow's son nor Jairus' daughter are the cause of Jesus' own demise, as Lazarus is, according to GoJohn. John 11 and 12 would have us believe the priests decided to kill both Jesus and Lazarus because of this miracle.
Interestingly, Luke's author doesn't mention Lazarus of Bethany but takes time to tell the parable of Lazarus and Dives. This Lazarus presumably is a fictional character invented to tell a parable. Oddly, Luke's author is the only gospel writer in the canon to attach a name to a character in any parable. And Lazarus, in the Lazarus and Dives parable, is the only time Luke's author does so.(Dives is not a name actually used in the parable.) Why unconventionally name the fictional Lazarus in a parable but ignore the ostensibly real Lazarus, who's healing supposedly leads to Jesus' execution?
What's up with all that?
Luke's parable cont...

“He answered,‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
“Abraham replied,‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said,‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
“He said to him,‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’” Luke 16:27-31 (NIV)

I'm thinking it's unrelated to Jesus resurrecting Lazarus of Bethany. I think this parable is used to illustrate that being rich without faith won't get one into heaven. Lazarus is supposed to mean 'Helped by God' and it seems that although he was very poor, he had faith. I don't think the Lazarus in this parable is the same as the one in John 11.
Peace <3

“H-o-o-o-o-o-o-ld on thar!”

Since: Sep 08

The Borderland of Sol

#432954 Jan 4, 2013
Clark Griswold wrote:
<quoted text>That's because you're always whackin it in your sock Clownie. Your dumb!
Hi, Clark!

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#432956 Jan 5, 2013
G_O_D wrote:
My problem with the Lazarus story is why did only one of the canonical authors mention it. A guy raises another from the dead and only one guy thinks it is a notable event worth mentioning while the others find wiping the dirt out of a beggars eyes is worth half a page of expensive paper ?
<quoted text>
Exactly. Lazarus is one of Jesus' most amazing miracles, a miracle that leads Caiaphas to call for Jesus' execution, yet only John mentions it.

The really amazing thing is that people actually buy such nonsense.

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#432957 Jan 5, 2013
Juicylu wrote:
<quoted text>
I answered your question in the context of one of my favourite passages regarding women, in my own words. Many people, including myself believe the siblings to have lived in Bethany.

....

Not sure why you're asking me about Luke.

....
I asked you about Luke because the pericope you relayed regarding Marry and Martha, "one of [your] favorite passages regarding women", only appears at Luke 10:38-42.

http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TSHQAVD...

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432958 Jan 5, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
Exactly. Lazarus is one of Jesus' most amazing miracles, a miracle that leads Caiaphas to call for Jesus' execution, yet only John mentions it.

The really amazing thing is that people actually buy such nonsense.
No comment :p

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#432959 Jan 5, 2013
Juicylu wrote:
<quoted text>
Too bad I didn't believe before I had my children.....
That brings me to a question. What are your thoughts on if one commits suicide they go to hell?
Peace <3
there is no heaven
there is no hell

christianity is a failed moral system

your personal belief set should be an embarrassment to you.

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432960 Jan 5, 2013
karl44 wrote:
<quoted text>
there is no heaven
there is no hell
christianity is a failed moral system
your personal belief set should be an embarrassment to you.
Yes. You're right, absolutely. I am very embarrassed and shall now go and hang my head in shame.
<3

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432961 Jan 5, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
I asked you about Luke because the pericope you relayed regarding Marry and Martha, "one of [your] favorite passages regarding women", only appears at Luke 10:38-42.
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TSHQAVD...
Ah, yes, I meant the other Lazarus stuff. My mistake, sorry.
<3

“SPEBSQSA”

Since: Aug 08

Northern Virginia

#432962 Jan 5, 2013
water_nymph wrote:
<quoted text>You can bet your bibby on that one.
The only way to fix the problem is as you said earlier...vote every incumbant out of office and keep doing so until they understand they are there to represent WE THE PEOPLE.

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#432963 Jan 5, 2013
Juicylu wrote:
<quoted text>
Ah, yes, I meant the other Lazarus stuff. My mistake, sorry.
<3
I get the sense that this is all zipping right past you.

That's fine; I'll rebottle it.

John's Mary and Martha of Bethany are sisters to the "real" Lazarus. And the "real" Lazarus is central to the passion story, his healing being the cause of Jesus' execution.

Yet only John tells that story, while, as G_O_D noted, minor miracle stories often are repeated across the canonical gospels.

Canonical Mathew and Mark ignore Lazarus completely, at least by name.

Luke tells a minor story about a pair of sisters named Mary and Martha, who seem to reside in Galilee but probably are based on the same characters as the M&Ms of Bethany in John.

Luke also offers a parable that uses the name Lazarus -- a parable that, as with the "real" Lazarus story in John, involves the death of Lazarus.

The John and Luke traditions regarding Mary, Martha, and Lazarus seem to have some common source that was modified by the prime authors of those texts in differing ways in my estimation.

So why does Luke's author bother with a parable involving the name Lazarus and a minor story that, apparently, relies on Lazarus' sisters yet ignores Lazarus of Bethany altogether, even though his story is one of Jesus' greatest miracles and the one miracle that ultimately leads to Jesus' execution?

Why is Lazarus' name never uttered in Mark or Matthew given his claimed importance in John?

BTW, the "real" Lazarus wasn't really real. The name means "God is my help", suggesting it was very conveniently chosen.

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432964 Jan 5, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
I get the sense that this is all zipping right past you.
That's fine; I'll rebottle it.
John's Mary and Martha of Bethany are sisters to the "real" Lazarus. And the "real" Lazarus is central to the passion story, his healing being the cause of Jesus' execution.
Yet only John tells that story, while, as G_O_D noted, minor miracle stories often are repeated across the canonical gospels.
Canonical Mathew and Mark ignore Lazarus completely, at least by name.
Luke tells a minor story about a pair of sisters named Mary and Martha, who seem to reside in Galilee but probably are based on the same characters as the M&Ms of Bethany in John.
Luke also offers a parable that uses the name Lazarus -- a parable that, as with the "real" Lazarus story in John, involves the death of Lazarus.
The John and Luke traditions regarding Mary, Martha, and Lazarus seem to have some common source that was modified by the prime authors of those texts in differing ways in my estimation.
So why does Luke's author bother with a parable involving the name Lazarus and a minor story that, apparently, relies on Lazarus' sisters yet ignores Lazarus of Bethany altogether, even though his story is one of Jesus' greatest miracles and the one miracle that ultimately leads to Jesus' execution?
Why is Lazarus' name never uttered in Mark or Matthew given his claimed importance in John?
BTW, the "real" Lazarus wasn't really real. The name means "God is my help", suggesting it was very conveniently chosen.
It is a bit, yes. Thanks for 'rebottling' it :) Maybe the others didn't mention it because all the authors had different things that they were compelled/inspired by God to write about? I'm not sure, I need to think about it to form a solid opinion, I never thought of it that way before. As for the Lazarus comment you've made, is that your opinion/interpretation or what? I see it differently. How did you come to that suggestion? Got a link? I'd love to see it :D
Peace and love and kittens <3

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#432965 Jan 5, 2013
Juicylu wrote:
<quoted text>
It is a bit, yes. Thanks for 'rebottling' it :) Maybe the others didn't mention it because all the authors had different things that they were compelled/inspired by God to write about? I'm not sure, I need to think about it to form a solid opinion, I never thought of it that way before. As for the Lazarus comment you've made, is that your opinion/interpretation or what? I see it differently. How did you come to that suggestion? Got a link? I'd love to see it :D
Peace and love and kittens <3
A link to what? The meaning of the name? Not one I relied on for this post. But here is a quick Google search:

https://www.google.com/search...

I am sure the quality of the links offered varies.

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432966 Jan 5, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
A link to what? The meaning of the name? Not one I relied on for this post. But here is a quick Google search:
https://www.google.com/search...
I am sure the quality of the links offered varies.
No, I know the meaning of the name, sorry I'm a bit scattered today, I mean this;
<quoted text>
"BTW,(the "real" Lazarus wasn't really real.) The name means "God is my help",(suggesting it was very conveniently chosen.")

The parts in brackets :)
Cheers <3

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432967 Jan 5, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
A link to what? The meaning of the name? Not one I relied on for this post. But here is a quick Google search:
https://www.google.com/search...
I am sure the quality of the links offered varies.
So, are you saying the Lazarus in Luke is not real, as it's just a parable or that Mary's brother Lazarus is not real?
<3

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#432968 Jan 5, 2013
Juicylu wrote:
<quoted text>
No, I know the meaning of the name, sorry I'm a bit scattered today, I mean this;
<quoted text>
"BTW,(the "real" Lazarus wasn't really real.) The name means "God is my help",(suggesting it was very conveniently chosen.")
The parts in brackets :)
Cheers <3
That is my take, though I doubt I am the first to notice the convenience of the name.

Since: Dec 12

Yes, I'm an Atheist.

#432969 Jan 5, 2013
Chess Jurist wrote:
<quoted text>
That is my take, though I doubt I am the first to notice the convenience of the name.
Hhmmm...something to think about...
<3

Since: Jul 09

Location hidden

#432970 Jan 5, 2013
Juicylu wrote:
<quoted text>
Avoiding a fight is not dishonesty. It's just avoiding a fight. I don't have to respond to anything I don't wish to respond to so yes, I side step, make a joke or ignore certain things all together. If you don't like it, don't address me. Simple. There are people I like talking to and there are people I don't like talking to, it's my choice, it's a public forum and bottom line is, none of it matters because you and wn don't know me and your judgements of me and vice versa mean exactly nothing. Yes, sometimes I think Clownie has the right approach, some people are just not to be taken seriously or spoken to seriously, especially ones who just want to have infantile and moronic arguments, IMO.
you are doing a fine job of being a clown

Since: Jul 08

Columbus, OH

#432971 Jan 5, 2013
Juicylu wrote:
<quoted text>
So, are you saying the Lazarus in Luke is not real, as it's just a parable or that Mary's brother Lazarus is not real?
<3
Oh my.

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